Nostalgia, Legacy, and Finding What’s Next with Andy Clarke

Brad: Mr. Andy Clarke, hello

Andy Clarke: How the devil are you?

This, was something familiar about this
face that came over the internet to me.

I can't remember the last
time I actually saw you

Brad: That's why we're doing this.

That's why we're doing this.

So, so this is, this is what we're
gonna get into is catching up, and

so that's why I'm going to get into
the first question, which is, what

has you waking up excited these days?

It's been a while

Andy Clarke: It has, it--
Well, it has been a while.

I've, I've become very nostalgic
over the past couple of years.

And, uh, I don't know whether it's an age
thing or a kind of, you know, state s-

place in your life thing, I've been doing
a lot of, um, a lot of dwelling and a lot

of kind of, you know, remembering some of
the things that I, I used to get up to.

We can talk about whether collecting
is a disease or not, because I'm sure

that somebody would say that it's
some kind of psychiatric condition.

but I've actually started collecting
things, and this is part… Sorry

for audio listeners, but I will
try to describe what this thing is.

is part of a 1990s Sena

P2 five-by-four-inch camera.

this is the rear standard-bearer,
the where the film went in the

thing on the top of a, what
we would call a view camera.

And if you imagine those professional
cameras that, you know, you s- used

to see people using where, you know,
there'd be a front bit and a back bit,

and in the middle, there'd be bellows.

Well, this is part of a Swiss
camera from the 1990s, and I picked

this up in a shop in Vienna, in
Austria, um, a couple of weeks ago.

And it was an absolute bargain
because this thing is mint.

I've got the entire camera.

I've got it in parts on my desk, ' cause
I'm kind of, you know, oiling it and

cleaning it and, and, and doing the stuff.

But this is… I used
to sell these cameras.

I worked for this company, back
in the early 1990s, and this was

a Swiss company, um, based in
Schaffhausen in northern, Nor-

northern Switzerland, southern Germany,

Brad: Right

Andy Clarke: the border
on the Rhine Falls.

Not very far away, actually, from
where I think you and I last saw

each other, which was Freiburg.

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: an hour or there.

And, uh, I've been collecting,
bits of history, and this is… I'm

putting this together at the moment.

Um, it's all in pieces on my desk.

but I have all the bits to make it work,
except that, of course, you can't really

shoot five-by-four-inch film anymore.

Well, at least not easily.

so this is, this is part of it.

And if you want to know what the
other bit looks like when it's

on the front I picked this up.

I had to have this shipped from Japan.

That's how serious I've
become on this kind of stuff.

This is a 90 millimeter, Schneider
Super-Angulon large format lens,

which in the day would've been,
oh, dear, well over 1,000 quid.

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: it for a lot
quick- cheaper than that.

But this camera is my, is my baby.

Um, it's gonna go on a tripod over
there in the studio, and it's gonna

look absolutely awesome, it's gonna
remind me of the, the sort of stuff that

I used to be involved with before the
web and before all this other stuff.

and you can't see unless you actually,
you know, unless you get your hands

on this kind of thing, but this
is a serious piece of machinery.

You know, the gears, the racking, all this
kind of stuff is absolutely incredible.

And, you know, this company
was, was known for it.

and I used to go to Schaffhausen
quite regularly, when they would, you

know, when they would have kind of,
you know, sales events or new product

launches or all this kind of stuff.

So I've always had a bit of a soft
spot for Schaffhausen, which is

why I'm wearing a, an IWC watch
as well 'cause they're based

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: in Schaffhausen.

but this thing is, is absolutely,
um, incredible, it's just a kind of a

reminder of, you know, not only kind
of, you know, what I used to do all

those years ago, but, you know, the
stuff that we did and had to use to,

to take pictures even as, you know, as
little time ago as the, as the '90s.

I say that and it's like, you
know, that's like 40 years.

This is what's getting me excited
at the moment, is putting my Sina

together, which hopefully by the end
of the week I will, uh, I'll have done.

But it's, it's, it's epic.

This thing is so heavy.

I mean, the whole camera

Brad: it.

Andy Clarke: Yeah.

Brad: looks it.

It, it, like you could, you could
tell, you could see the craft, the

machine, like the, the, the precision

You could tell there's, there's the
craftsmanship, there's the legendary

Swiss precision and all of that stuff.

But I, uh, you're, you're tying
a lot together because, like you

said, there's this nostalgia there.

This is the… It, it doesn't just
sound like, "Oh yeah, I, I worked in

a, a camera shop for a hot second."

It sounds like this was, like, a real
part of your early career, I guess?

Or, or was, was it… Yeah, this is, like,
you, like, you actually going to this

place, so you have this, like, connection
to it that isn't just beyond like, "Oh,

I think that this looks really cool."
It sounds like y- you obviously have an

appreciation for the craftsmanship and
the, and the design of this thing, but

it's also you're, you're tying the, the
history and the geography and your, your

life's journey together through it, as
well as this, the, the format that is

something that we take for granted now,
that we can just generate and snap off,

you know, a thousand photos in a second.

and just the, just the size and
the awkward, like, just, just how

bulky it all is and stuff too.

You're just kind of like, wow, it's, it's,
it's difficult to go back to that place.

Andy Clarke: I d- see, th- th- if you
want a sort of a potted history, I, I went

to art school back in the '80s thinking
that I was gonna be, you know, David

Hockney, um, a- and a fabulous painter.

And it turned out after about three or
four days, I realized that compared to

everybody else, I was a terrible painter.

And, you know, there were people that
I was at art school with that, you

know, were, like, super talented.

Um, and I wasn't.

So I'd kinda-- I think I'd, like
most things in my life, I think

I'd kind of blagged my way into it,
ended up spending most of my time

in either the printmaking studio
making linocuts or in the dark room.

was very seriously into
photography for a long time.

when art school finished, I moved down
to London, and I thought I would go and

work with a photographer, and the usual
route was, was that you apprenticed

and, you know, you spent several years
working under a photographer loading

film and painting walls and making tea.

I actually ended up working
in a car photography studio.

And this place, it was, it
was essentially like an Amazon

warehouse in the scale of it.

But if you imagine when you, you know,
if you take a photograph of a, of

a tin of beans, generally speaking,
you know, in the, in the pre-digital

age, there would be some form of
kind of, you know, curved background,

infinity kind of looking background,
usually paper on a, on a thing.

now, if you're photographing a car,
that thing has to be, you know, 100

feet wide and, and 80 feet tall.

So I ended up working in this car
photography studio and, um, as an

assistant, and it was hard work, and
I got nowhere near photography at all.

Um, it was all literally laboring.

It was either painting the, the
stage, after a shoot or before a

shoot, or sometimes during a shoot.

we did-- It was incredible the way
that… I can still remember some of

those things, how, how they were done.

This is pre-digital.

This is pre-Photoshop.

It's

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: retouching.

And if you wanted to take a photograph
of a car, and you wanted the impression

that the wheels were moving, what you
would do is you would, take a photograph

with the wheels in one place, and then
you would literally lift the car up,

move the wheels, drop it down, take
another exposure, lift it up, and you

do, like, 80 exposures on the same
piece of film to lift this thing up.

the famous one was actually a shoot for,
I'll never forget this, it was a shoot

for a Fiat Tipo, which was like a little
tiny, I don't know what you'd call it

now, compact, And the campaign had this
Fiat literally sitting on the top of

a mountain Except that the mountain,
the s- the sky behind the mountain was

literally painted on this infinity curve.

And it took a painter and his
team two weeks to paint the sky.

And then there was a scaffolding
tower, and the, um, the Fi- was put

on top of the scaffolding tower.

And I was the only one of these assistants
that actually coincid- weirdly had

a forklift truck driving license.

So it came down to me to actually
lift this car on top of a,

on top of this scaffold tower
and just, like, drop it down.

Really scary stuff.

And

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: the set designer took very,
very thick, you know, one-foot thick

8x4 sheets of, uh, polystyrene and then
carved it with a hot knife to create

the rocks that were underneath the car.

It was all painted, airbrushed,
and, and painted up.

And then to, to create the impression
of, like, a, of a, of a load of

kind of, you know, low cloud so that
the, there was all the low cloud and

then the car was on the top of the
mountain just peeking out of the cloud.

To create that effect, they got about
eight shopping carts, strapped a load

of chicken wire to them, and covered
that chicken wire in cotton wool,

and then got about eight volunteers
to literally move the shopping carts

backwards and forwards around for
a, you know, like, a minute-long

exposure, and it created this thing.

And was how, that was how stuff was done.

I mean, this would be probably
'88, '89 So only a few years

before, you know, before my

Brad: Yeah.

Andy Clarke: so I kinda got
into photography like that,

and this company, um, they, um,
obviously lots of photographers

came and went through the studio.

And then I went to one of the big
trade shows, and it was up in, I

think it was Birmingham at the time.

so I went to this trade show and I'm
kinda talking to a bunch of people, and

I'm talking to the, the company that sold
Senar in the UK, got talking to them,

and they were looking for a sales guy.

But they wanted like a s- they wanted
like… I don't know what we call it now.

I suppose it'd be like the, the
old, the old school equivalent

of like a developer evangelist.

They

Brad: Okay, yeah.

Andy Clarke: that knew a bit about

Brad: That knew, knew the craft.

Yeah, yeah, yeah

Andy Clarke: Well, I didn't
really know the craft, but you

know, I could talk a good game.

so I actually ended up working
for this company and then

the s- the Swiss, S- Senar.

and that was my route into, into
working in photography industry.

and I, I took a complete detour
away from the, the kind of the

creative side and, and got much more
into, you know, technical and sales

and, and all that kind of stuff.

And that was a big kind of career,
career pivot a good few years.

so yeah, so that's kind of one of the
reasons why I, I, I think back to some

of the stories that, um, some of the
things that I remember from those days

of literally going out selling this
stuff, and it sticks with me today.

There was my boss at the time, Kevin
Turner, bless his soul, he, um, he

used to have some real catchphrases.

He was a, he was a natural salesperson
would say things like, you know, "Well,

the deal's not done until the checks
stop bouncing." And, you know, w- we,

we would lose deals to competitors,
um, and he would not give up.

Even after they'd said to him, "Kevin,
no, we're buying something else,"

he w- he was like a dog with a bone.

And there was one particular day I
remember when, um, the competitor

had actually delivered all of their
equipment to this, to this client studio.

Kevin struck a deal with them.

and literally our van driver
collected the competitor's kit

and delivered it back to them.

So it was a, it was a bit of a circus.

But, you know, it's those kind of
things that you kind of look back on and

think, you know, it was sometimes really
miserable at the time, but, you know,

you end up with a few stories to tell

Brad: Well, not just,
not just that though.

Like, 'cause as you're describing
literally all of this and, and how I know

you as art director, web person that,
that cares about the craft, agency owner,

someone out there that's been having
to create, package, sell, deliver, do

all of that over a long period of time,
it's like all of that experience totally

checks out, and I can s- totally see all
of those transferable skills, as we call

them, on, you know, it, all of that stuff.

It's like, we kinda have no choice but to
be shaped by those earlier experiences,

and we carry all of it with us.

And, 'cause a lotta people think, and
I, I'm curious to get your take on it,

because something like that, oh yeah,
like I kind of had this, this journey in,

camera equipment sales and- There's quite
a few people out there I think that would

say, "Oh, yeah, like, and that, and that
was, like, a mistake," or, or like, or

that, that was like a weird, like, detour.

And yeah, it, uh, like, it, it doesn't
seem like you, you see it that way

Andy Clarke: No.

Um, you know, I, I, there were
lots of aspects of being in

sales that I did not like at all.

and, you know, I didn't like the
pressure of having to meet numbers.

You know, I found that to be, you
know, not in my character at all.

I loved the industry and the
people and the craft the technology

that, that kind of went behind it.

you know, we-- if we, if you talk to,
you know, you talk to a lot of people,

they, they'll have a very, a very
negative i- um, impression of salespeople.

You know, we've all been sold to badly.

I was attempted to be sold to very badly
fairly recently because we're having

double glazing fitted in our cottage for

Brad: 'Kay

Andy Clarke: time in 30 years.

We might actually be warm in the winter.

you know, we, we got three quotes to
come round and, um, you know, there

were three guys that came and one of
them was, you know, very enthusiastic

about the product and really knew things
and had ideas and was a charming chap.

But then there was the, then there was
the, the other chap who sold badly.

Um, and you know, he didn't
quite-- he wasn't quite one of

those salesmen that wouldn't
leave unless he'd got a signature.

But it was the sort of thing where,
you know, he was then constantly

pestering you afterwards to, you
know, "Have you made a decision?

Have you thought about

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: we've got a special
promotion coming up next week if you

sign now." Uh, we've all been sold
to badly, but the, being sold to well

when you have a need is actually a, a
really, a really good, really good skill.

and I'll always remember Kevin saying
that there are three types of customers.

There's the customer that knows he's
got a problem, he knows how to solve it,

and he's just looking to buy something.

Those are the customers that we
don't want they know what they want.

It's a race to the bottom, and
it's, it's the lowest price wins.

Then you've got a customer that knows
he's got a problem, doesn't know how

to solve it, and then you're in with
a chance of being able to propose a

solution and, you know, hopefully he
believes in your, in your message.

And the, the third type of customer is the
one that doesn't know he's got a problem,

of course he doesn't know how to solve
it, and then he's there-- you're there

to basically to, you know, cr- not just
fulfill a need, but kind of create a need.

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: And it's that kind of thing,
I think, which is inc- it's just as

valuable in creative or technical services
than it is in selling cameras 40 years ago

Because, you know, you're really
thinking about, you know, what

can I do that is going to actually
meaningfully improve somebody's

business or marketing or performance
or guide or whatever it might be.

Um, then being able to articulate that
and take people along the journey with you

so that they're able to then go, "Yeah,
that was good. He knew what he was talking

about." And then they're really happy with
the end result and will continue to buy.

That's, that's something that
I've kind of, you know, carried

with me all these years.

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: and, you know, some
people will say, "Yeah, you know,

sales is just manipulation." I'm
sure that our old friend Jeremy

Keith would be, would, would be.

We've, we've had lots of, of,
uh, heated discussions about

advertising over the years.

Um, and you know, and what he
considers to be evil or, or

manipulative or, or whatever.

But, you know, good advertising, good
sales is, is, an art, not just a,

you know, it's not even just a skill.

It's an, it's an absolute art.

And,

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: we can-- It's not something
which… know, if, if I c- if, if, if I'm

designing your website and I say, "Look,
I've had this great idea," gotta be able

to articulate it, and I've got to be able
to, you know, reason it out with you and

tell you why I think that this is the
better solution than a, another solution

and, do that with, with conviction.

And don't know whether, whether, whether
young people, sort of appreciate that.

you?

Brad: it, there does seem to be, I think,
a, a generational, dynamic in play.

I think you have a lot of, uh, kinda like
the, the digital side of things as well as

now, uh, COVID and stuff when it comes to
just kind of interpersonal communication.

I think that, that, that some
things have, have shifted for sure.

all of this adds up to there's, there's…
And I like how you just said it, it's

an art form, but it, there's also just
a real authenticity to it, and that's,

that's, I think, the thing that I've
come to appreciate over the years in

my own career trajectory working for
agencies where we'd, you know, doing

work with, with Nike and Mastercard and
whatever, and like, you know, you're,

you're around the kind of like bullshitty
kind of parts, but then you're also

around the, oh yeah, like here's these,
these kind of like real things that

are, that are solving real problems.

And, you know, you're kinda
connecting the dots and like I got

to see that at this like mega scale.

But like bringing that into my own world
and my own work to be able to have a

conversation with somebody, and I like
how, like how you got in- involved with

the g- the camera company is it's like,
yeah, you, y- you need to actually live

in that world and be able to connect with
people over the craft, and to be able to

unders- genuinely understand the kinds
of problems that they're up against.

And I like how you, you said it, it's
like to, whenever you are feeling the

impact of those problems, so you're
just like swimming or, or frustrated,

or you're just… It, sometimes you
do know the, what's causing that, but

a lot of times, like, you don't, or
you b- you have a directional notion.

Having someone who's able to kinda
come in and say, "Hey, looks like,

looks like you've got some problems
and I wanna better understand

them, and I also have some ways
that we can address those things."

And it, and it is just, you
sometimes just see the, uh,

the, the literal shoulders drop.

You know?

You see that, like, tension leave their…
It's like, oh good, like somebody who

knows what they're talking about is here.

They're actually invested in what I'm
wrestling with, and there's sensible

and reasonable, and there, there are
solutions to these problems, and that's,

that's design in a nutshell, right?

Andy Clarke: I don't know whether
you've seen it because obviously, I

don't know when this is gonna go out,
but as we record this, we are in the

middle of the, the FIFA World Cup,
which sadly is taking place in the US.

This has been kind of all over the, the s-
the socials over the last week or so, but

the, um, Heinz's, Heinz condiment company,
their response to not being able to,

um, have their branded goods on display.

Have you seen this?

Brad: haven't, but Heinz is a
Pittsburgh company, so I should

Andy Clarke: the long and short of it
is, is that FIFA, the world governing

body of football, has its own sponsors,
and when it comes to an event like the

World Cup, only their c- only their
sponsor logos are allowed to be visible.

we've had this thing with, uh, with Levi's
and with Gillette, who sponsor stadiums.

you know, they've ha- it's gone
from being the Gillette Stadium to

the, I don't know, San Francisco
Stadium or whatever it happens to be.

Brad: Yeah, sure

Andy Clarke: It might be Boston.

they've had to cover up their
signage on these stadiums.

but w- the really, the really clever thing
has been how they've covered them up.

So Gillette, for example, covered
up their logo in what looks like

an enormous blob of shaving foam.

you know, you know what the place is.

But the best one, the absolute best one
was Heinz, because if you go to, you know,

the cond-, uh, the, um, the concession
stand, you know, to get a hot dog at the,

at the game, you're gonna want mustard
or mayonnaise or ketchup to go with it.

So they're using Heinz.

You know, Heinz is the, is the brand
that they're using, stadium's been forced

to cover up Heinz on all of leaving,
you know, leaving tomato ketchup or

mayonnaise or mustard or whatever it is.

But they put great-- they basically--
it's like the Epstein files, um,

for ketchup, where, you know,

Brad: ketchup.

Yeah, yeah.

Andy Clarke: k-

Brad: Yeah.

Andy Clarke: Hei-Heinz has been redacted.

so what Heinz have done is they've
actually launched their own range of,

of condiments, um, and they're, they
are for sale in Canada, I think, um,

which have actually got the redaction
printed on the label, and they're

calling it Unofficial Stadium Ketchup

Brad: Beautiful.

Andy Clarke: Which

Brad: Beautiful

Andy Clarke: is great.

And I, and should get a
massive pay rise for that

Brad: it's so fascinating, and it gets
into the stew of, like, a lot of the world

that we operate in, that the world of
branding, the world of, of kind of visual

communication, of, of… There, there's
just all sorts of dynamics and systems

and things in play that, that just lead to
these really wild and bizarre situations.

But it's like, it's that money, it's
that money dance on full display.

It's kind of hilarious, uh, 'cause it's…

Andy Clarke: It, it,
it was absolute genius.

But you see, it makes me wonder
sometimes where, you know, where

on the web do we get that kind
of high-level creative thinking?

Um, you know, does it, does it
purely happen in ad agencies?

Because, you know, you don't see that
kind of creative stuff, generally I

don't, down to, you know, people's
experiences of, of products or websites.

Brad: there's… I mean, you, you touched
on it, like, right out of the gate.

You, you, you know, what you described
with that Fiat photo shoot is, like, just

straight-up set design for a movie, right?

It's like there's a physicality to it.

There is just, you know, multimedia
art on full display, right?

And it's obviously it's
doing a specific job, right?

It's through, you know, the lens
of an advertisement, but it's like

that's just a straight-up art shoot.

And it does feel that over time and
translated into the digital world and

especially now, there has been this kind
of flattening that has happened of a

lot of the, the multidimensionality of
the, the rest of just the, the world,

uh, of, you know, physics of, of the
world, the world of atoms, and does that

actually translate into the world of bits?

And I think that we've seen some really
interesting things happen over the course

of the last few decades of the web, where
There is a utilitarian aspect to, "Cool,

I'm coming on to this website to get
something done," or, "I'm w- you know,

working through a flow." And by all means,
you know, like, yeah, get out of the way.

Don't, don't try to,
like, stuff your stuff.

Don't, don't try to be whatever.

But there's, there's a time and a place
for, for a lot of things, and I do think

that there is that more creative or
inventive or whatever stuff that used

to be kinda what I'd get into a little
bit in the ad agency world, where you're

like, "Oh, okay, this is, like, a little,
like, clever thing for, for Tiffany and

Company," where it's like you could, like,
drop a pin and, like, be like, "Here's

where you and your sweetheart met or
where they proposed," and you ended up

with this, like, beautiful kinda map all
over the world of, like, where people's,

you know, like, got together with
their, with their sweetheart and stuff.

You're like, "That's, that's,
that's neat. I like that." You know?

It's, it's, it's, it's special.

It's, it's inventive.

You're, you're, you're wielding the,
the technologies available to us

at the time that are emerging, and
you're doing kind of things that

are a little bit outside the norm.

It's not just, like, totally there to
just only get you into a checkout flow,

but it's there to just, like, help with
a bit of just, just storytelling or

connection or just fun or all of that
stuff, and it, and it feels like those

things have been fewer and further
between, I think, as the years go by.

Andy Clarke: I've been very lucky, but
over the last few years I've kind of

developed an accidental niche working
with composers, either, you know, movie

composers or video game composers.

And, you know, these are
very talented individuals.

Um, and they seem to think that when
they come to me, they're gonna get

something which hopefully reflects a
little bit about their personality or

demonstrates their work without just
being, you know, an audio player or a h-

Brad: Yeah.

Andy Clarke: things,
histograms or whatever.

And

Brad: Yep

Andy Clarke: a lot of fun.

I found those things really,
really satisfying, because I, I do

still think that there's a market
for good storytelling online.

And, you know, it doesn't
really matter what you're doing.

You know, I've just done a job
with, um, a company that sells

thermal printer cartridges, which,
you know, it's, it's not Nike.

but this company has a story to
tell, and their story is all about,

um, what they, they… You know, the
stuff that they make gets printed onto

packaging, generally food packaging.

if the thing runs out, then
the production line stops,

therefore just-in-time delivery.

And one of the guys actually said to
me, "You know, it's, it's a bit of

an art really knowing when somebody's
gonna need something." And that kind

of got me thinking, and I know it's a
cheesy idea, but I ended up actually

spending a week reproducing famous
paintings using QR codes, which I'm

sure is not a novel idea, but it

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: you know, it,
it was appropriate to the,

to this particular job.

That's the other thing, you know,
going back to your kind of, you

know, your original question about
what gets you excited the morning,

and it's, it's good ideas, you know,
clever, ideas, clever storytelling.

And it doesn't matter to
me what the medium is.

It can, you know, it

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: film, it can be music, it can
be the web or digital stuff or whatever

Brad: do you see yourself oscillating
between those different worlds?

Is it a morning by morning thing, or
do you feel like you get into… Do

you go into a zone and kinda get tunnel
vision when you're pursuing an idea,

or do you find yourself kinda like a
bee pollinating many flowers or kind

of flitting across different mediums
over the course of, say, a month?

Or, or do you, like, get dialed in?

Do you g- do you go deep or broad?

Andy Clarke: I, don't know whether
it's an ADHD thing, but I find it

incredibly difficult to concentrate,
and the older I get, the worse it is

I am the world's worst multitasker.

I will often have to set aside time
where I know that I'm not dealing

with anything else, and I really
need to, actively focus on something.

so this week is all about coming
up with a whole set of graphic

illustrations for, you know, for
another small business client.

so, you know, the web part of it was
actually done within a few days, but,

you know, out of a months-long project,
you know, the vast majority of it is

gonna be coming up with the ideas,
and copywriting, and typesetting and,

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: you know, doing all of that.

And it's got to that stage in the job
where I'm really having to kind of focus

on kind of, you know, the look and feel.

and that comes down to how do I
illustrate the concepts, the real

thing, the real benefits of what
it is that this company does?

How can I kind of
illustrate that visually?

Brad: It sounds like there's, there's
a time and it, it sounds like you give

yourself some permission to, to live in
that w- world where you're, you're not,

focusing, but then you're like, "Right,
it's, it's go time." You, you kinda

know when that threshold gets crossed
and you need to, like, really actively

design, like, like, the space and the
time to be able to, to stay there.

Yeah

Andy Clarke: I mean, I've been
traveling for the last few weeks,

um, and I haven't really done any--
I've got a lot done over the last,

you know, three, four weeks or so.

You know, I've completely rebuilt
my own website from the ground up.

I've done some client stuff.

You know, I've done, I've done some
building, I've done some writing,

I've done some bits and pieces.

But that's all s- that's all
kind of like busy work that I can

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: do anywhere.

It's the sort of thing where I can do that
in a coffee shop or I can do it in a, you

know, in a service station if I decide

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: from driving for an hour.

Um, but actually, I, I f-
I do need this space to…

or a space that I can kind of make my
own if I'm really gonna sit and focus

Brad: How do you find your environment,
like that gas station session, how do, how

do you find that, that, that environment
influences your work, or does it?

Do you feel like it does or, or not?

Even if it, e- even if it is, like,
busy work, do you feel the, the impacts

of where you're at, especially if
you are traveling, d- do you feel

like that finds its way in somehow?

Or are you

…
Andy Clarke: Not, not s- no, not so much.

Not so much.

Um, I mean, I had a very,
very pleasant day on Friday.

I decided, I said to Sue, you know, "I'm
not coming out with you today," you know?

"I'm gonna go and find a cafe and I'm
gonna sit by a lake and I'm gonna,

like, you know, do some stuff."

I don't, you know, I don't, I don't find
the environment particularly affects it.

It's, it's much more about being
able to get inside your own head.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah

Andy Clarke: I, I n- I actually do need
a, a certain amount of distractions.

It drives Sue nuts, but even when
I'm, you know, designing something

or, you know, I'm really trying to
focus, there is always a film on.

I've got an iMac sitting in front of me.

There is always a film on.

watch the same movie over
and over and over again.

or there's, or there's music on.

And it's not, you know, some
people go, "Yeah, I can only listen

to Tchaikovsky when I'm working

Brad: Yeah, sure

Andy Clarke: But I've
gotta have something.

And I've learned actually that if,
if, if your brain kind of, you know,

there's 100% of it, if work takes up
80%, then unless I have something to

fill up the other 20%, not productive.

And if I don't have a film on or I
don't have music on or something like

that, it's then that my stupid brain
starts to wander and I get distracted

and I think, "Ooh, who was that
actor that starred in that TV show?"

And then I'm kind of in a
fucking Wi- Wikipedia rabbit hole

Brad: you need the entire
thing to be filled up.

Your en- your entire attention
to be preoccupied, else

Andy Clarke: Mm-hmm.

Brad: It's gonna wander.

Yeah.

That's fascinating.

I, I see that play out in my own
work and stuff as well, where it's,

it's, uh… There's something to
beat and rhythm for me specifically

that plays a real big part, right?

When we talk about beat or groove or, or
whatever, we're often talking about some-

There's a, a directionality to it, right?

It's, it's, it's going somewhere, right?

There's, there's the passage of time, and
there's this rhythm that's moving forward.

Like, we feel a sense
of, of movement forward.

We d- we rarely feel music takes us
backwards or keeps us standing still.

It's, it's taking us somewhere,
and it's, i- in my experience of

it, it's always forward, right?

Andy Clarke: Hmm.

Brad: Uh, in, in, in, in, in the
literal sense it, it is because it's,

you know, sound produced over time.

But there's, there's something
experiential to it that you just

kind of have this thing that
when it's on, it's just kind of

immediately moving me forward.

And when I hitch that up to work
or, or what I'm trying to apply

my, my conscious mind to, I find
that really helps me forward.

It, it, it, it moves me forward.

It's, it plays a role in
moving my own shit forward

Andy Clarke: Yeah, I don't, I don't
find does that necessarily for me.

Um,

Brad: Hmm?

Andy Clarke: it would be listening to, you
know, country music or, or Motörhead, um,

doesn't really make much of a difference.

I don't work quicker when I'm
listening to Motörhead than I

Brad: Yeah.

Andy Clarke: listening to Miranda Lambert.

Brad: Right?

Andy Clarke: but it's, it's, it's more
about occupying the, the misbehaving,

misbehaving parts of my brain

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

You're, you're, you are using it as
like a, to tamp down the, the kind

of parts that are gonna distract or,
or preoccupy you and, and, and kind

of keep… It, it's a, it's a, it's
almost like, like a, like a white noise

machine that just kinda keeps that
part placated so that you're able to

focus on, on what needs to be done.

That's, that's fascinating.

I think that, I think
that's, that's really cool.

Andy Clarke: Yeah, musical cannabis.

Brad: But, but it's interesting to say
'cause since you're saying that, you know,

you'll often have a film running, now
that's like, that's a visual experience,

that's dialogue, that's whatever, and
like, like you were saying with people

and Tchaikovsky where it's just like,
"Oh, yeah, I can't, can't work with, with

lyrics or, you know, music with lyrics
or, or other, or a podcast playing or

something like that," that that feels like
it's pulling, uh, yeah, that part, the

language center of your brain away, but it
sounds like that's not an issue for you.

Andy Clarke: No, the only time when
I've got to have everything completely

distraction-free is when I'm writing.

Brad: Hmm.

Andy Clarke: And I, I can't have,
I can't have anybody in the same

room when I'm, when I'm writing.

You know, somebody moving a chair
is gonna really irritate me.

well, actually I say
that, Sue moving a chair.

She's the only one that's
in the house apart from me.

she's gonna irritate me moving that chair.

so I do have to have everything
completely quiet because I've got this

technique that I was taught many, many,
many years ago, which is to actually

have a conversation with the reader.

So, you know, I'm, I'm writing for
you, and I'm having a conversation

with you about this thing.

And, so therefore I can't
have any kind of, you know,

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah

Andy Clarke: But apart from that,
you know But, but I quite like it.

It's, it's, it's I, I, I do try to get
out of the house, you know, at least

twice a week I try to leave the house.

Brad: Hashtag life goals.

Get out of the house twice a year.

Andy Clarke: Exactly.

Well, you know, one day Scoob's
gonna come up here and she's just

gonna find me kind of desiccated
at my desk cobwebs hanging off.

He died at his Mac

Brad: there is something… It's, it's a
very strange sense of, uh, of perspective,

'cause I think about it a lot.

You know, I'm, I'm hanging
out at my house, you know,

uh, for a good bit of my time.

Yeah, I, I, I need to get
out of the house, uh, more.

We're, we're working on it.

It's, it's been a journey,
it's been a process.

in certain respects, depending on how
you'd look at it, right, if you're not at

all in this field or don't value or, or,
you know, work on the same things that

I'm working on, you would look at that
and go, "Oh, that just seems like what a,

what a miserable and solitary existence."
And yet I don't feel that way at all.

It's like here are these,
these just kind of rich worlds.

Here are all the people that I know.

Here are all of, like, the… It's,
it's, it's very, very, very fascinating.

I'm pretty good at exploring
the physical world.

Very, very bad at whenever I'm home.

I'm usually a homebody.

And there was a period of time where that
was really, really necessary, but now

I'm kind of, like, trying to overcome
that and kind of just reconnect with just

like a, "Oh, yeah, like, maybe I should
just rather than make a yet another

peanut butter and jelly sandwich, I
should probably go out and, and get…

Have, have a meal somewhere, uh,
that isn't, isn't my house." So,

Andy Clarke: Yeah.

I mean, you know, it's not like
we're s- you know, it's, we- things

could be worse, couldn't they?

I mean, you know, there's a very
nice what looks… What-- Is that,

is that the Rickenbacker that's

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yep

Andy Clarke: know, well, you know, you've
got your Rickenbacker, I've got a Senar on

my desk and, um, and a whole load of, um,
Godzilla action figures lining the walls.

So, you know, it's not like we're kind
of, you know, working in a coal mine.

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: so we mustn't grumble too

Brad: Yeah.

Well, but, but, but, but that is, that
is, we've, we've kind of built these,

these comfortable little cocoons.

but they're creative
cocoons as well, right?

And I think I, I'm fascinated by
that because, you know, for people

to do impactful work, often for the
benefit of others, it requires a

certain level of solitude or focus
or disconnection from other people.

It's, it, it a- it almost
seems kind of counterintuitive

or counterproductive, right?

It's like, oh yeah, if you're like trying
to make good art or make good music or

make good work or design good things that
are in pursuit of helping other people

or, or, you know, putting beautiful
things out into the world for the benefit

of others, you'd think, oh yeah, well,
you, you wanna be out amongst them.

in practice you kinda
need that head down time.

You need, you need that even if you're…
Like you were saying, like even if

you're in a cafe or something, it's
like putting like the headphones on.

I think a lot of people are like,
it, it doesn't necessarily compute.

And I could, I could see how there is this
disconnect in perspective where it's just

like, oh, look at how depressing this is.

Like, you're at a beautiful
lake and you're staring at

a fucking computer, right?

Like, what are you doing with your life?

And it's like, well, living
your best life, right?

'Cause you know that
what's in that computer

Andy Clarke: Whoa!

Brad: is not, is not totally distracting,

Andy Clarke: Well, no,

Brad: from the, from the lake.

Andy Clarke: Exactly.

You know, and I'm sitting here for a few
hours with my computer by the lake, but

I'm not spending, you know, 50 weeks of
the year, um, working in a grocery store.

You know?

So I'm, I'm very lucky to be able to,

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: kind of thing.

Well, have you ever worked for
somebody or worked in, in a building

with lots and lots of other people?

Have you ever worked in like, you know,
like a, a big open plan or whatever?

Have you, have you done that?

Brad: I, I have.

My, my very first job I was, you know,
in cubicles adjacent to the accounting

department wearing, uh, business casual
and going, "This is, this is what,

uh, adult work is." I just kind of a-
assumed that's what it was and, and

eventually kinda changed out of that.

But yeah, that wa- that was a, a trip.

And then, but then ultimately I found
myself in these rooms with a small handful

of people, and that was very interesting.

Kinda working in, first in, in New
York City, a little Soho apartment

with, like, six people tops.

Like, I, I think I was, like, number
three or maybe four whenever I got

there, and then there was, you know,
six or seven people by the end of it.

And then working at RGA, my wife and I
had different experiences in literally

the same building, because she worked
in a big kinda open plan part of the

office where there's just all sorts of
activity and people coming and going and

passing through and all of that stuff,
which is really tough for ADHD, I think.

Uh, and then there was me, that I was in
a converted, uh, conference room that got

holed up with, uh, just a few, a handful
of people, and we kinda created our little

kinda subculture, uh, within that room.

And, and that, I think back very fondly
to those times because we kind of, like,

were protected from what's since come
out about, like, open, open plans, you

know, open office plans and stuff, and
just, like, how not conducive to good

work they, they are in, in many respects.

So it was like, oh yeah, I was kinda
like holed up with, like, a little,

like, family and, like, we had
our own little culture going, so.

Andy Clarke: I mean, the, the-- I worked
for a-- I went and, went and lived

in Australia for a couple of years,
I worked for a, a fintech company d-

down there in Sydney that had one of
these great big open plan offices.

There's like 80 people in there.

You know, there's everybody from the
CEO to the office manager to the and

marketing and support and the technical
teams and, you know, and, and me.

and you know, on one hand you might
think to yourself, "Well, I'm gonna

find that really energizing." You've
got all these people moving around,

it's buzzing and kind of stuff.

found it hateful and exhausting and after
a couple of months, I discovered that this

company had-- they rented, um, a flat, an
apartment, a set of rooms above the barber

shop, which was over the road, and it was
sort of like a bit of an overflow space.

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: And I discovered this space.

So I would, I would go into work in the
morning and pretend to enjoy it, then,

you know, e-everybody would go for lunch,
and then after lunch I would disappear,

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: take over one of these rooms.

Um, and ultimately I thought, yeah,
it sound, sound like I'm sort of like

a, I don't know, bird or something.

But, you know, over time it got
filled up with my shit and I, you

know, and I, I took a bookcase.

I bought a bookcase and put it in this
space and had my books on it And they

Brad: Hey, y- you, you,

Andy Clarke: Anne?"

Brad: yeah, you just like, uh,
organically found and designed

the space that you needed in
order to do what you needed to do.

It's, it's like your body rejected that
env- environment and so you found the way

to, to find an environment and design and
create the environment that you needed,

Andy Clarke: Yeah.

Brad: that's beautiful

Andy Clarke: it was not a very
ex- a very successful, successful

job or, or, or, or experience.

But, it, it did, it did teach
me that, um, I'm not cut out

for working in any kind of space

Brad: Yeah.

Andy Clarke: at all

Brad: Those th- those, those
experiences are important, right?

And I, I, I could say that about a,
a good bit of my, my early career

experience was learning what not to do.

You know, you're shaped a certain way.

You have a certain disposition.

You have a certain mind.

You have a certain dis- uh, you
know, we, we all have preferences.

We all have, you know… Our
definition of comfort is different

from human being to human being, right?

So it does become this really fascinating
thing, and that's why I think that,

um, in this moment in time, I feel
like there's, over the last, say, two

years, there's been the trend of like,
oh, yes, return to the office, right?

After kinda post-COVID, where, uh,
everybody kind of got comfortable

with this, this flexibility, which
is why it just feels so absurd

almost to kinda go, cool, so
everybody's got their own rich lives.

We all have our individual preferences,
our own individual comforts, our own

individual working styles, our own
individual just, just everything.

Yes, we want to collaborate and
coordinate and communicate with the

other people that we're working with.

That's, that's also an
instinct that we all share.

But that's why, like, those return to
office decrees by management feel just

so ham-handed and just coarse and just…
It, it just, it just feels… It's this,

like, flattening of it's like, For, for
a lot of people, I think they got that

taste of what we get to experience a
lot, which is, ah, yeah, we're surrounded

by our, our, our stuff, our comfort.

We've created our own little,
like, kinda creative cocoons.

And, uh, now all of a sudden the boss
is, is saying, "Nope, you gotta, you

gotta make that commute and get back
into an environment that's, like, been

demonstrated to, to be counterproductive
for getting things actually done."

Andy Clarke: It is, it's, it's, it's
strange when you sort of, when you

sort of sit back and think about it.

I always, I always sort of felt slightly
rebellious, you know, even going over

and, you know, like leaving the office
and working on my own over the road,

you know, felt kind of rebellious.

but I, I think in, in hindsight that
I have built a physical space and

I've built a mental space and I've
built a job around my need to work

in a certain way or be a certain way.

And, and I've sort of realized
that no, you know, no, I'm not cut

out to be around people every day.

Brad: Hmm?

Andy Clarke: and I'm not
cut out for having to be,

appear to be on all the time.

You know, if I dec- if I decide that
I wanna, I wanna get out of bed at 11

o'clock in the morning and, um, and,
and work until 3:00 AM, well, you

know, I will do, and I'll probably
do my best work after midnight.

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: and if I decide that I
want to sit and fiddle with, you know,

oiling large format cameras for an
afternoon, well, you know, well, I can.

and I've kind of built my working
life ar- around that almost as a way

of, I think either compensating for
or coping with the, you know, the

ridiculous blob of goo between my ears

Brad: Yeah.

ADHD in general is, it's, it's a very
challenging thing in that in so many

respects it's just, oh, well, I'm just,
it sounds like you're just interested

in a bunch of different things, and
from moment to moment or day to day

you feel like pursuing a certain thing.

Or, or yeah, like, uh, it's time to play
with some gear, or it's time to, that's,

that is- it's like, is that a bad thing
to have just vast and varied, like,

interests and actually, like, act on them?

It's like, no.

But then there's like, oh yeah, then
there's this thing called, you know,

responsibility and cl- you know,
clients are expecting things or

people are expecting things from me.

I think that, I think
that that's the balance.

But it, but it sounds like, like you,
you've been able to just be … It's,

it's a … Would you say that it's just,
like, been, like, an iterative process

to get to a place where you're able
to arrive at that waking up at 11:00,

going to bed at 3:00 AM on a certain
day, but not necessarily doing that,

you know, religiously or, or, or all
the time, but to just, like, kind of

meet the day and your energy and your
head space where it's at for the day?

Andy Clarke: do, I do tend to work late.

I rarely go to bed before 2:00 AM.

Um, and, you know, quite often I will
gravitate to coming back up here and,

and, and, and doing various things.

and it's just a, it's just a
rhythm that I've kind of got into.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah

Andy Clarke: alwa- Sue's a morning person.

She always used to joke that we
could cover, you know, 24-hour

technical support because, you know,
she's up at 6:00 and I don't go to

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: until 2:00.

So, but yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's
very, it's very kind of interesting

and I know that, you know, it's,
you know, there's the two of us, you

know, living the dream surrounded by
Rickenbackers and Godzillas talking

about, you know, the perils of ADHD.

I know that there are people that
really, really suffer with this,

this stuff and cannot, you know,
cannot get through the day, cannot

maintain a, you know, relationship or
a, hold down a job or make sure that

their bills are paid or whatever.

and I've never had a, an actual diagnosis.

I've never taken any medication for it.

I just think that it sort of makes
a little bit of sense when it comes

to my of weird brain chemistry.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah

Andy Clarke: know, that's, that's not to,
that's not to disrespect or play down,

um, you know, the struggles that, that I

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: of people have.

Brad: Yeah.

And in my experience of it, and as I've
kind of, uh, gotten a formal diagnosis

of it in, in recent years actually, it's
that second D that becomes important.

Because th- there is, there are certain
qualities to it that a lot of people

in this moment right now, like the,
you know, the, the comm- you know,

mental health community and science
community in general is just like,

"Is this even really a disorder?"

Or more of just like it's
kind of a way of being.

And the disorder part is the, this
is actually getting in the way of my

ability to, to move things across a
finish line in any way, shape, or form.

Or, or like you're saying, like, hold
down a relationship or being able,

you know, to, to function, right?

And so I think that it is important
for the, the people who really feel

that that is genuinely disrupting
their lives, and that they're, they,

they find themselves frustrated.

That it's like, "Yeah, like I, I, I
can't do that." Like, that's the stuff

where it's just like, please address it.

Like, the, the beautiful thing about it
is, is that there are treatments for it.

You know, go do it.

Like, whenever I did it, it was, you
know, it's kind of like a survey and

they, they gave Melissa a survey as well.

And, and as, as well as like, I think
maybe even some, some other people.

Um, like maybe my mom got one as well.

But it was just like… And then
I, like, returned it, right?

And it was just like, they, they looked
at it, and then they gave me a diagnosis.

And we, you know, I got
put on some medicine.

And it definitely, like, helped.

It helped get the parts where I'm just
like, "Yeah, I feel like I'm just,

like, treading water and not going
anywhere," to a place where I'm like,

"Ah, yes, I actually feel like these,
these strokes are actually leading

to some, some forward movement," and
I get some, some clarity out of it.

So it's like, it's, it's, it's very
interesting because I still retain that

same, I think what you're describing quite
well, which is just this, this diversity

of, of interests and wanting to be able
to, like, kind of follow your energy in,

in your head wherever it's pointed, and to
have the, the space to be able to do that.

Like, I think that's a beautiful thing.

That just means, like, you're
interested in a lot of things.

You could play with things.

You'll make forward
progress on certain things.

And the, the cool thing is, is through
that diversity, through pollinating all

those different flowers, you'd, like,
bring all of that experience, that

breadth to whatever it is you're doing.

Versus if you're to totally put on
horse blinders and just focus on

that one thing, you're not going
to- have that same perspective.

So in many respects, I feel like the,
the attention deficit part of it is, is

pretty beautiful and is, I think a lot
of people are rethinking that as a, as

like a, well, that's, that's more just
a, a way of being rather than a disorder.

But it's, it's the whenever you're
getting drawn and quartered and you're

not able to get anything done, it's
that, it's that second D that is

the, that's, that's the tough thing.

Andy Clarke: dysfunction,
I think is part of it.

And, you know,

Brad: Okay

Andy Clarke: know, that's not kind
of, you know, executives in business.

That's like actually executing something,
you know, not literally not being able

to, you know, sit down and, and pay a bill
or, you know, or concentrate or whatever.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah

Andy Clarke: but it, but it's really
interesting actually, because there's,

you know, I w- you know, w-when I was,
when I was dicking around in the '90s

with, uh, with large format cameras,
nobody, would ever… I mean, I don't

even know whether the, the term had been,
you know, invented at, at that point.

Um, so it's a very short space of
time where we've kind of become,

you know, aware and probably
accepting in a lot of ways of,

Brad: Yeah.

I, I wanted, I wanted to, to, to talk
to you about this just because y- you

were, I- to my knowledge, and I'd have to
think hard, but I, uh, but I think that

you were the first person that I really
saw in any sort of, like, full-throated

way kind of talk about mental illness
and mental health think, a, a really

Andy Clarke: would never, never have
heard the words, you know, neuro

and diverse in the same sentence

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: back in the time.

It's, it's actually, it's, it's funny
you bring that up actually, because I've,

I've been doing a bit of, um, a bit of
family digging over the last year or so.

Um, and you know, without kind of
turning this podcast into kind of, you

know, some kind of mournful exercise.

but you know, back in, back in
1978, my dad committed suicide, and

I was not around at the time, um,
and never knew him particularly.

I mean, I might have been
one or two really when, you

know, when we were together.

I always grew up with about him
in the context of what he ended up

doing, and trying almost to kind of
rationalize, what he did and what

must have sort of taken him to that,
you know, to that, to that place.

And it's interesting, you know, if you
look at, I think it was my-- one of

my last books, which I dedicated to
him, and I actually wrote, you know,

he suffered from what we would call
today, you know, bipolar disorder.

Um, but actually I've been, I've been
doing some really interesting thoughts.

I thought to myself, right before, before
they all die, I'm actually gonna talk to

people that knew him, um, and find out a
little bit more, even to the point where,

you know, I found out that he supported--
He liked football and he supported Preston

North End, you know, Football Club.

You know, those kind
of little details about

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: you know, are, you know, to
anybody else are completely meaningless.

But I, I, I spent some time and
I've actually, actually, I'm--

I need to write these up, but I
actually recorded the conversations,

Brad: Beautiful

Andy Clarke: with, with people
that knew him at the time.

And he, he had a very, very tragic story.

Um, he was around 10 or 11, um, and had
a younger sister, and he was playing

football on, you know, the community
football pitch, which was near a canal.

his little sister, who was probably
about five at the time, was playing

near the canal and fell in and drowned

Brad: Oh my goodness

Andy Clarke: And he was blamed by,
you know, particularly by his father,

Brad: Oh, no.

Yeah

Andy Clarke: of abuse
and this kind of stuff.

Brad: Friend

Andy Clarke: And through talking to
people and talking and thi- and listening

to how they described him as an adult,
um, has led me to the conclusion that

he didn't necessarily suffer from a,
you know, from a bipolar disorder or as

they would call it back in the day, you
know, manic depression, where you've

Brad: Yeah.

Andy Clarke: up highs and the lows.

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: I think that it was
much more of a almost like PTSD

Brad: Yeah, trauma.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Unre- unresolved trauma.

Like

Andy Clarke: And his, his need to
absolutely control his environment, um,

the point where, um, you know, he was,
he was obsessive and controlling and

manipulative and, you know, would do
things like count the number of slices of

bread that were left when he went to work.

On the very rare occasion
that he went to work.

He couldn't hold a j- he
couldn't hold down a job.

he would count the number of slices
of bread and make sure that there was

exactly the same number when he came
home because he was controlling, know,

Brad: Yeah.

Andy Clarke: his family
and stuff like that.

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: but what became
interesting, I've always just lived

under the impression that maybe, you
know, maybe a little bit of my, my

kind of gelatinous brain chemistry
was, you know, was, um, genetic.

And I know that Alex has al- often
wondered about, um, about their

brain chemistry and thinking, you
know, "Is this something that,

you know, that is hereditary?"

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: but I've actually come
to the conclusion that it Um, and

that's been quite a relief actually.

I've been, over the last sort of s-
three to four months, I've actually been

really paring down my um, to the point
where I'm on virtually none right now.

I might take one pill a week.

and that, you know, I might
leave that another three months

and then stop that entirely.

Um, so that's actually been quite
a, kind of a, a revelation really.

Um-

Brad: That's, that, that's fascin-
like, 'cause it's back to what you're,

what you were talking about earlier.

It's, it's, there's, there's the kind
of like storytelling and whenever, when

we think about these things, especially
with just such tragedy and all of that,

you, you've… And we're told these
stories that it's just, okay, yep,

these things like are genetic, and if
you convince yourself o- o- of that,

and, and to be fair, there absolutely
are genetic components to these things.

But I think that one of the biggest things
that I've learned since Melissa's now,

like a licensed, like therapist, and so
I've like learned a lot just by way of

like kinda being on the other end of it.

It's like, there's your, there's
your genes, but then there's

your specific lived life.

And a lot of those, those genes,
like either don't come online because

you've never been in contact with the
environmental things that would cause

those, things to activate, those,
those kind of, you know, chemical

reactions to take place or whatever.

So it's like you can even, you can share
a, a bunch of genes even if you have some,

some, you know, of that continuity there.

But if you don't go through that
same life experience, which we all

have our own wholly unique lived
experience, that it, it, it is nature

and nurture and, you know, it's,
it's, it's, it's biology and just life

experience, and it's not either/or,
it is like a both/and kind of thing.

And I, and I think that, that, that being
able to kinda pull away from that story

almost as this like, oh, this is like
a sentence or this is like something…

Like, I don't know, do you feel that?

Like, like it's like by way of like
learning more like, uh, 'cause,

'cause that, that experience that
he had what had to be just the

most like heart-wrenching thing.

And uh, no, no.

And, and that's not something that
you pass down through your genes.

That is, that is like something
that experientially happened,

you know, that ultimately like
results in a certain functioning

Andy Clarke: Yeah, and but yeah, on
one hand it was, it was quite a relief

to kind of reach these conclusions
and feel a little bit liberated that,

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: know, actually no, I d-
I sh- you know, I, I, I'm the way that

I am because of the way that I am.

I'm not necessarily, you know,
dictated to by the, by the genes.

Um, but it's, it was, it's been a f-
a really fascinating experience and

I always had… You know what it's
like, you kind of build a mental

picture, um, even if, even if it's
like completely self-constructed.

Brad: Yeah, yeah

Andy Clarke: you know, and I always
thought, you know, here's a sweet

man that, um, you know, that really
suffered with a, you know, with a

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: Um, and it turned out
that, yes, he was a very tragic figure.

that wasn't down necessarily to,
to, to mental health and, or, you

know, to, to, to bipolar disorder.

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: It doesn't excuse the
things that he did, um, and, you know,

and his behavior and stuff like that.

You know, we all have to
take ownership of that.

Brad: Yep

Andy Clarke: it, it was kind of
liberating that, you know, I don't

necessarily think, you know, "Hey, yeah,
there's the, there's the mad genes."

Brad: you're, you're finding out a- at
this moment, like you said, like, like

very recently and, like, getting closer
to it and unpacking it, and are as a

result changing even your own story
as well as your behaviors and your,

you know, need perhaps to, to rely on
antidepressants even by way of, like,

helping kind of, like, reframe things.

But then you also, you have your
offspring, and they don't need to…

They- they're another step away from
that origin story that they can be

even further liberated from and sort
of chart their own path rather than

having to sort of say, "Cool, yeah,
you have the scarlet letter as well,

and you, you, you need to, to sort of
endure this for, for all your time."

You can… There, there's almost
like, yeah, that… I love how you

said it, that, that liberation or
that, that ability to just say,

even, even if, even if there is a part
of that there and present, that doesn't

dictate what your future holds, right?

It's, it's not a, y- your destiny
or your fate or anything like

that to have to, to, to be that

Andy Clarke: I mean, I don't know
why, but I, I carried a lot of

guilt for a great many years about,
you know, what he did and, you

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: my mom's decisions
around, you know, us not being

there and stuff like that.

Um, and, you know, I've come to
realize that I've got plenty that

I've done that I should feel guilty
about, but that's not one of them.

Brad: That, that's fascinating.

That's really fascinating.

What, what caused you
to go on that journey?

Andy Clarke: I was-- You know,
I've obviously thought on and off

about it for, for a long time.

But, think, I think what really prompted
it was that I went to my little brother's

wedding, and my little brother, my little
half-brother has a, has a half-sister.

Um, and she was around kind of early
teens when my dad did what my dad did.

Um, and, you know, she was, she was
there and around, so, you know, she

sort of saw this thing through her lens

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: I actually met her at, uh,
at, um, at my little brother's wedding.

Um, and I'd never met her before.

This was the first time
that I'd ever met her.

Brad: Wild

Andy Clarke: and you know, she was
like, "Oh my God, you look exactly

like John," or, "You look like, you
know, you look like John would have

looked if he'd, if he'd lived 28

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: so that was that
kind of, you know… I think

that's what kinda stimulated it.

Um, but I'd, you know, I'd never
talked to my mother about it.

My mother's, what, 84, 85 now.

I'd-- Do you know, I'd literally
never had a conversation with her

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Andy Clarke: ever

Brad: Wow

Andy Clarke: 60 years, until like three
months ago when I said, "Right," you know,

"we need to, we need to talk about this.

I need to hear your side of
the story." Um, so you know,

that was, that was interesting.

But I suppose it's-- I don't know.

The, the whole theme I think of
this podcast, it to a certain

extent is, you know, nostalgia.

And, you know, I think you get to a
certain point in life or your career

where you do sort of reflect on
things, take stock a little bit and

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: you know, "Okay, so you
know, I've done all of that, but what

am I gonna do for the next hopefully
20 years?" that's kind of where I am at

the moment, is, know, thinking about,
well, you've done all of this stuff.

You know, you've, you've, you
know, you've worked every day.

You know, you've run a small business.

You've worked with all of these
clients and managed to get away

with it without anybody finding
out that you were a total fraud.

Brad: Fake it.

Yeah, fake

Andy Clarke: You know, you've managed
to, you've managed to con all of

these people for such a long time.

Um, and you know, you bought
the house, and you've paid

for the cars, and you've put

Brad: Yeah, yeah

Andy Clarke: and you've
done all of these things.

Um, you know, but kind of like,
you know, well, what's next?

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: and you, you know, you do
get to a cer- I suppose turning 60 was,

know, one of those kind of pivotal,

Brad: Sure.

Andy Clarke: things.

Brad: Yeah.

The, the, you have this milestone.

You've, you've got enough in your
rear view mirror that you're able

to look back and, and reflect, hold
that up to the light to help inform

the, the road in front of you, and
that, that makes a lot of sense

Andy Clarke: and it's, it's, it's
making me think about, what am I

gonna get next week or the week
after or the week after that?

What am I gonna wake up excited about?

'Cause I can only stay excited about
oiling a large format camera for so long.

I will have collected every piece of,
of vintage Cine that you can possibly

find on eBay I'm, I'm getting-- I'm
at the stage now where I would really

like to do something that I think is
consequential outside of these four walls.

Whether that would be, political or
social or, or whatever it might be.

I think that I would really enjoy,
being able to these talents, in

inverted commas, into something
which can be more consequential

than selling printer cartridges

And I haven't found the thing yet.

but I would really love to be involved
in, um, you know, particularly in

kind of, you know, anti-right-wing,
anti-fascist, um, anti-populist kind

of political movements, which we saw
in this country in the, in the 1970s.

You know,

grassroots anti-fascist movements.

and we're starting to see the kind
of the stirrings of that again,

um, along with the kind of, you
know, the rise of the right wing.

Um, and I think that's one of
the things that I'd kind of

quite like to be involved in.

But I just wanna do something
which is, consequential

Brad: I think that that's great
that that's where your head's at.

I'll try something odd with
you because this is a lot of,

like, where my head has been.

'Cause I'm, I, I feel like I'm in
an, i- in a similar space where

it's just like I've done certain
activities and done certain things.

I've ticked certain things that
objectively speaking feel like they,

you know, it's like that's what some
people describe as success, right?

And, and it's like, okay, cool.

Have I done that?

Like, yes, I have done that.

I've demonstrated, I've
proven these points, whatever.

What, what's beyond those
things that feel whatever.

But so much of my, my attention has
been towards establishing, preserving,

and fighting really hard to, create
and maintain stability for my family

Andy Clarke: Mm-hmm.

Brad: that, that, that it, it forces you
inward and kind of in, in- I- in a sort

of an egocentric way that I don't like.

I, because I, I, I know that that's
not what this is all for, but I know

that it is very, very important for me
to make sure that my family is stable.

So th- that's been, I feel like,
where a lot of, like, my energy

and, and attention has gone.

And I want very, very desperately
to have… To g- to go outward.

Like y- like you're talking about,
to basically go, "Cool. I, I have

these things, I have these talents,
I have these abilities, and I

wanna point that at something."

You know what?

I, I found myself really, really
jealous of Mr. Rogers recently.

Of Fred Rogers.

So Fred Rogers, Pittsburgh's
own Mr. Rogers Neighborhood,

kind of legendary children's…

Andy Clarke: movie?

Brad: Yes.

Yes.

Andy Clarke: the

Brad: And

Andy Clarke: I'm not
familiar with the reference

Brad: in, in the US, it- he's, like,
as close to, like, a, you know, a,

a saint as, as you can get, right?

It's like, here's this person who
dedicated their entire life to

just the, the betterment of, of
children's welfare and, and education.

And there's just this rich, like, very,
very, influential in the form of, like,

elevating developmental psychology and
helping people understand that no, kids

aren't just like little, little adults,
and you don't y- talk to- like, certain

things come online at certain ages.

And, like, all of, like, that stuff,
right, was, was still pretty m- in

its infancy in, in that era, right?

And he was able to dedicate his entire
life to this mission of, like, kind of,

you know, advancing the causes and, and,
and fighting for children and making sure

that people, you know, they weren't being
bludgeoned with advertisements and all

of this other stuff, and that, you know,
teaching parents how to engage with their

children in healthy and constructive
ways, not punitive and blaming ways.

And all, all of that stuff, like, really,
really consequential, impactful work that

we continue to benefit from to this day.

And I'm like, "That's awesome." And as
far as Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania goes,

like, he, he, again, is just th- this,
this, this presence and this, the, the,

this person that we can hold up to the
entire world as like, yeah, like, this

is, you know, Pittsburgh's own, right?

So, so it's like a big part
of my upbringing and, and just

kinda in the air and stuff.

So I recently read his, his biography,
and He grew up with a driver, with, like

a, a chef, uh, and his, his family was,
like worth, like millions upon millions of

dollars through, through industry, right?

P- Pittsburgh's like kind of Manchester,
Birmingham, like, like very, very similar,

like, working class, like cities, right?

Like this, you know, rivers of
steel and all of that stuff.

And his family's, you know,
built their fortune around that.

And that was the world
that he, he grew up in.

But his family was very generous with
their, with their wealth and stuff.

But bec- throughout the entire biography,
they j- they kinda talk about him taking

these big swings and like, you know,
here's this nascent technology called

television, and he's like, "I think I
wanna, like, go there. I think I wanna,

like, do this. And I, I… And, you know,
in fact, I wanna, like, use this as a tool

to help children and, like, help educate
children and, like, all this stuff."

Like, pioneer-level stuff.

But he didn't have to worry about
making two and two equal four.

He didn't have to worry about, like,
providing that, that, like, s- that

financial stability for his, for
his, like, family so that he was able

to spend more time on that impact.

And it, and it… That… I found
myself being so jealous, and I'm like,

I've been, like processing it, 'cause
I'm just like, it's very weird to be

jealous of a, of a dead guy I guess here.

But like, but it's like I see that, that
work, I see that impact, I see that,

like, that, that real steadfast dedication
to a higher purpose, to a goal, to a

mission, to a legacy, to, to really trying
to move the needle on society, right?

And I, and I, I want that, but I feel like
I've been, like fighting so hard to just,

like, just, just put the pieces in place
so that it's like, is everybody safe?

Is everybody healthy?

Is everybody just, like, protected?

Uh, is anything bad going to happen?

And I feel like that's what I've been,
like kind of directing my energy towards.

And so it's like only now am I
starting to kind of like look outwards,

Andy Clarke: Yeah

Brad: a deeper way.

Andy Clarke: we have to
put food on the table and,

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: um, you know,
fortunately Alex is, you know,

or something, so, you know, is…

Brad: That's wild.

That's wild.

Andy Clarke: It's

Brad: Oh my goodness

Andy Clarke: the time when we
were in, the three of us were

in, uh, Freiburg that time

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: uh, I remember,
you know, we'd, we'd had some

correspondence and, you know, w-
back in the day when we would comment

on each other's blogs or something.

So, you know, "Ooh, Brad Frost.

Brad Frost.

Uh, Brad Frost is gonna be at this event."
So, you know, Alex comes along and, you

know, you're like, "Right, let's go out.

Let's go out drinking." So Alex is kind
of, you know, Alex is out with you and I'm

in the hotel room talking to Sue on the
phone going, is out with his friend Brad."

Brad: That's funny.

Andy Clarke: it's always
been Alex's friend Brad

Brad: That's so funny.

Andy Clarke: I, I'm, I'm struggling
with, with what it is because whether

it's… And I know what it is.

It's a, it's a combination of
wanting… It's not duty, it's wanting

to provide, and provide a stable
environment, and make sure that the

kids have got everything that the
kids need and all that kind of stuff,

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: hand.

And, you know, on the other hand, or in
the same hand, I realize that it's not--

I, I don't work to the level or have-- I,
I haven't worked to the level that I've

worked purely to put food on the table.

I've done

Brad: Yeah, sure

Andy Clarke: because it's been a way of
kind of escaping from, you know, from

negative thoughts or, or whatever it is.

You know, I've, I've created this,
this career and space and, you know,

persona or whatever to a-a-allow
me to be able to deal with myself

in the way that I, I deal with it.

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: but one of, one of the
things that I've, I've been really

struggling with is that, um, you know,
cer- and certainly over the last couple

of years, I've, I've had a lot less to do.

I mean, this year's been decent, but,
you know, the, the last couple of years

business-wise have been bloody awful.

So, I've been inventing things to do
rather than, you know, rather than

actually being paid to, to, to do stuff.

And, you know, I, I was thinking,
you know, it goes, goes back to

your kind of, you know, what,
what wakes you up, you know, what,

what makes you wake up excited.

Um, on one hand, you know, I say I
want to do something consequential, but

I don't know, in my heart of hearts,
I don't know whether… And this is

gonna sound terrible, but I don't know
whether I care enough about people in

the way that Mr. Rogers, obviously,
or you actually cares about people.

Maybe, you know, maybe my consequential
thing is to come up with a, a, you

know, I don't know what it might be.

To come up with a thing
that people remember.

Who

Brad: Yeah.

yeah, you're, you're
talking about legacy, right?

And talking about sort of like something
that, that feels You're putting

something out into the universe that
you feel transcends your four walls

and the people in just your life.

And that, that doesn't necessarily
translate to you're going to go, you know,

donate, uh, you know, break the record
for donated plasma or something like that.

It just, it just means that you're
going, y- you're, you have a, your

sights set on something beyond just,
like, the next, like, kinda client

project, which is, which is great

Andy Clarke: whatever that thing is,
I'm not exactly, I'm not exactly sure.

because I think that what I've done
over the years is that, you know, I've

put a lot of my self-worth or identity
onto the work that I do, and the

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: say, and the writing,
and the trying to, you know,

things in certain directions.

and I, and I, and I want to try
to, I want to try to find whether

it is photography, whether it is
something political, whether it

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: going back and doing,
you know, printmaking again.

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: I need to find
that thing that I can do.

You know, I wish-- I, I'm very jealous
of people that, like… I'm very jealous

of you that can just go, "I'm gonna pick
up a guitar, and I'm gonna play it for

the, for the pleasure of playing it."

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: to, you know, I don't
have to be The Rolling Stones.

You know, I can just play this thing
because I want to, to play it, and

I'm gonna put on a gig, and we're
gonna do a thing, and I'm gonna do

a ridiculous conference talk where
I d- you know, I set it to music or

whatever the hell you did in Berlin.

I can't for the life of me figure out

Brad: But th- but this, this is, this
is what you're talking about, though.

This is what I think is,
like, really interesting.

What you're describing is that you have
this, like, plethora of activities, right?

You have writing, you have, like, you
know, the client work itself, but all of,

like, these, these activities that all
kind of, like, ladder up and bring you

all the way back to that salesman role,
which is, like, all of these pursuits,

all of these activities have been in
pursuit of operating a business in order

to provide stability for your family, and
you've been doing that for a long time.

And it sounds like you're, you're,
you're understanding that you

can kind of point those same
things not at that sole pursuit.

And, and that's, and that's, like, where
I'm slowly getting to myself because,

like, it, it… There's, there's,
especially as an independent person,

especially as, like, a, a responsible
business owner and, like, all of that

stuff, you feel like, "Well, if I'm gonna
be doing these things, it should all help,

like, ladder up and, like, help, like, the
greater, you know, the, the greater good

and, and put the, the food on the table."

That could warp what you put
your, your, all of your time and

talents and abilities into, right?

If you're, if you're not careful with it.

Andy Clarke: I think the, the, the
other thing is, is I've got to unlearn

30-plus years of behavior, um, when
it comes to doing creative work.

Because I've, you know, I've
got all the tools downstairs.

You, you know, you can't see it, but down-
downstairs I've got a printing press.

I've got all of the lino cutting
tools that I would ever need.

I've got a stack of lino.

I've got a bunch of things
that I want to, to, to make.

And there's a voice in the back of my head
going, "What are you gonna do with this?

are you doing this?" You know, "What,
what's the purpose of this?" You know,

"Are you gonna, are you gonna try and
sell these things?" Um, you know, "What,

Brad: Where's, where's your Etsy shop?

Yeah, where's your Etsy shop?

Andy Clarke: know,

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: what, you know,
what is the purpose of doing it?

And the purpose of doing it is just
to sit there and, you know, listen

to some country music, and sit and do
lino cuts for the pleasure of doing it.

Like picking up the Rickenbacker
and picking at that purely for the

pleasure of doing it, you know?

You're not necessarily, you know, needing
to make a number one album, but… And

nobody's gonna hear what you're playing.

And, you know, nobody may see what I'm
producing, but that's-- And it's very

hard when you've been working in creative

Brad: Yes.

Andy Clarke: for so long,

there's, there's, there's the sort of the-

Brad: Temptation or the, or
just the, the, the pull, the

gravitational pull or I don't know.

I don't know what it is.

Yeah.

Andy Clarke: you start to, you start to
overthink it, and you start to think, you

Brad: Yep.

Andy Clarke: why am I doing this?

What am I gonna, you

Brad: Yep.

Andy Clarke: gonna

Brad: Yep.

Andy Clarke: blah, blah, blah,

Brad: How does this foot, uh, how
do, how does this all ladder up to

me being successfully commercially or
monetarily or financially or career-wise?

It, it, like, bec- because we've been
habituated to, to run our operations,

and that's what you need to think
in order to feed the, your family.

yeah, so, like, letting go of that is
fascinat- Like, uh, you should, you

should totally, like, write about that,
that detoxing process 'cause I wanna

learn from you as you, as you learn this.

Andy Clarke: I'm gon- I'm
gonna have to learn it first.

But you

Brad: Yes

Andy Clarke: 40, hopefully 40 years' time,
you know, when I'm, when I'm off this

mortal coil, nobody is gonna open a box
and go, "Oh yeah, Grandad made websites.

at that

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: he made for a, for a, a
print cartridge development company."

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: open a shoebox and
go, "Wow, he loved lino cutting

Brad: Can I show you something

Andy Clarke: Yeah,

Brad: we're talking about this?

I love my mom very much, but she has
this tendency to drop off… It's been

a steady drip my entire adult life.

she just drops off objects from my
life Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.

Quite literally, she was at our
house, she was going on a trip

with her, her college roommate.

Her college roommate from the,
the, yeah, the early '70s.

Like, they were going to
visit another college friend.

She was at my house.

She went back home.

Later that night, she drove back
to drop off… Remember the, the

CD visors that you would, like,
put on the top of your car, right?

With, like, the little, like, sleeves?

Yeah.

Andy Clarke: Yeah

Brad: was just like, "Here's this." She,
she drove back especially, she made a

special trip back to just deliver me
CDs from whenever I was probably, you

know, 16, 17, and then, and then left.

I'm like, she's like literally getting
up at 4:00 in the morning to go to the

airport on a trip with her friend, and
she felt… So, so it's very weird.

I, and relationship with things
and objects or whatever is, uh,

very, very fascinating stuff.

But one of the things that she
recently dropped off was this.

And this is her 1974, college yearbook.

And for, for, like, audio people, it's,
it's, it's this, like, beautiful, like,

silhouette, of, like, a profile of a
face, and it's, like, white, gray, black,

and then this, like, collage-y thing.

But she made her yearbook, and she
just happened to, to just drop it off.

It's kind of just like a never-ending
show-and-tell, right, with my mom.

But she, she just dropped this
object off at my house, and

she became an art teacher.

Her own kind of, like, body of, of
work is, is not her work has come to

life through other people is, like, a
lot of, like, how I, I think of her.

Like, her own, like, artistic practice
is, like, there's not a lot of, like,

tangible artifacts of, like, like,
the things that she herself made.

And I was like, "Wait a minute.
Did you, like, design this cover?"

And she's like, "Yeah.

Yeah." I was like, "What did, what
did you use?" 'Cause I'm like,

yeah, this is obviously, this is
pre- pre-Photoshop, it's whatever.

But just, like, this, this split of,
like, the, the white and the black,

you know, typography, and, like, the
typography choice in all of that.

I'm like, oh my God,
this is this is awesome.

And

Andy Clarke: there's

Brad: s- that's, that's the legacy, right?

Like, that's the, that's the legacy

Andy Clarke: we can probably guarantee
that there is exactly one of those things

left in the world, and you've got it.

which I, I find really appealing.

Brad: Hmm.

Andy Clarke: and Alex joke about
this, but, there's, there's

one film which I cannot watch.

I, I, I cannot wa- it
just, like, it upsets me.

and, you know, it's not the film that
a lot of people will imagine this is.

You know, it's not "Love Story"
or, um, or, you know, any of these

kind of tragic, tragic… It's not
"Philadelphia," um, or anything like that.

It's "Up"

everybody will go, "Yeah, but you
know…" I mean, I forget what the

character's called now, but you know,
he loses his wife at the beginning

Brad: Yeah, yeah.

Andy Clarke: is it because he loses
his wife that you get so upset?

No.

No.

I don't get upset at that part at all.

I get upset when he loses his stuff at
the end of the film, and the house blows

away, and it's got all of the stuff in it.

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: And, uh,
and it, it's, it's weird.

You know, I've got this
scene now sitting on my desk.

I've, I discovered and I renovated this
iPod Classic the other day, which I

found in a box and now works perfectly.

I've got

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: here, for the audio
folks, can you recognize this sound

Turn it off and turn it back on again.

That's how you make stuff work

You might have to amplify that.

But

Brad: Beautiful

Andy Clarke: this is my 1997
restored i- uh, original Game Boy.

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: just something, there's
just something wonderful about objects.

I don't know, I, I, I find, I find
stuff really interesting, which is

why there's a big hefty scene on, in

Brad: Yeah.

Andy Clarke: my desk

Brad: it's important to note though
that there's, that there's, it's

not stuff in the consumer … Like,
it's, it's for the meaning behind it.

It's for the, the purpose.

It's for, it's for the, the snapshot
in ti- Like, it like, you're, you've

been unpacking a, a lifetime of, of
experience and making sense of the world

and your own life and your own family
history even through the lens of, of,

like, these, these objects, right?

And, and I think that that's,
that's, that's really profound.

That's not, that's not a, "I don't know,
I just really like expensive bottles

of wine." Like, it's like, no, no, no.

There's, there's really, like,
sort of something a lot deeper.

I- there's an appreciation of
craft, but there's also just the

fact that these things come from a
certain time and a certain place.

And

Andy Clarke: You know, I'm wearing, I'm

Brad: yeah

Andy Clarke: expensive,
um, expensive IWC watch.

you know, I could have bought any number
of, of luxury watch brands, but, you

know, a Rolex or an AP or a, you know,
whatever makes, no sense whatsoever.

Um, you know, I'm not, I'm not
in it for the, you know, for the

brand or for the object per se.

I love this thing because, A, it
looks nice, um, and it's not showy.

also of that connection with Schaffhausen
and how I remember the guys that were,

that were working there in Switzerland
when I used to go there would, you

know, would all wear IWCs and, you know,
because they were just down the road.

Um, and there's this kind of, you
know, th- they were, they were,

you know, skilled engineers.

IWC obviously has skilled engineers.

Um, and it's, it's that reason.

I d- I don't like the, you know…
You sometimes you see this on social

media where I t- I hate the algorithm
where, you know, something comes across

and unless you flick past it quick
enough, you then start to get f- you

know, a deluge of people buying or
selling expensive Hermès handbags.

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: You know, that kind of
thing actually makes me want to retch.

Brad: Well, there's, and there's
something too, it's like I think

that, yeah, consumerism and objects
and luxury goods and just, just the

phys- like, all of that stuff just,
and the status that comes with it.

Like, obviously that's been
around, like, for, for a while.

You know, go to any museum
and you're gonna see some rich

people's well-crafted stuff.

but I do think that there is sort of
something to, what you demonstrate

really well with your appreciation
of stuff is, is appreciation.

There's appreciation of the
design, appreciation of the craft.

There's also kind of a
scarcity, part of it.

There's a, there's a
nostalgia, component to it.

But these are like living reminders
that as you continue to produce

work and put it out into the world,
right, you're able to look at these

objects from a, a, a previous era and
understand the weight of it, and to try

to incorporate that and try to capture
some of that in the work that you're

putting forward in- into the world that

Andy Clarke: this, this Sena, I was, I
was sitting outside in my front garden

about a month and a half ago, and I
get a video call from Alex, who is at

a conference in Vienna, has a day off.

Alex loves cameras and loves photography,
so is milling, you know, mooching

around with some friends around
Vienna, stumbles across this camera

shop and sees this Sena in the window.

and is immediately on, you know, on a,
on a FaceTime call with me going, "Is,

i- is, is this what I think it is?" And
half of me was really excited about the,

uh, you know, the fact that, yes, here
was a, here was a, a really brilliant

example of a P2 that I could, I could own.

probably a bigger part of me was Alex's
reaction and the fact that Alex knew

what this thing was and was, you know,
interested enough or s- savvy enough to

Brad: They, they see you.

They s- they see you

Andy Clarke: "My work is done."

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: knows what a
large format camera looks like.

Brad: That's beautiful.

Like, but they, they, they, they
see you and to, to have that, that

visceral reaction and to call like
that, and that being, you know,

across geography, you know, you're
in different locations to have that

connection over a, a shared love.

That's, it was beautiful

Andy Clarke: Yeah.

No, it was, it was fabulous.

And, uh, and I ummed and ahhed
about it, and I found it online.

Alex sent me a photograph.

The, the shop was closed, um, so Alex

Brad: There

Andy Clarke: of the opening
hours with the website address.

And I'm-- for a week or two, I'm
kind of umming and ahhing about this.

And, uh, and Alex is like,
"Yeah, y- you should just buy it.

Just buy it." And I'm like, "Yeah, but
there's plenty of other things that I

can spend, you know, 1,500 bucks on.

You know, there's more important things
and whatever." So Alex said, "Just,

just fucking buy it." And Sue's got this
rule, which is, I think is brilliant,

which is if you see something and you
really like it, but you're thinking in

the back of your mind, you're thinking,
you know, A, you know, should I buy it?

Should I buy it?

It's like, if you were to come back
tomorrow to buy it and it wasn't

there anymore, would you regret it?

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: think, I think I
would definitely have regretted not

Brad: Yeah, yeah,

Andy Clarke: object

Brad: yeah.

I think it'd be fundamentally
different if you just happened

to be stumbling upon yourself.

But the fact that, you know, your
own kin s- just is able to channel

and convey that, that enthusiasm
for it, it's like, like that's,

that's really what it's about, and
I think that's freaking beautiful.

Andy Clarke: And

Brad: That's beautiful

Andy Clarke: it.

It got-- Well, we were staying at
Alex's flat in, in Germany and,

uh, and this thing, uh, we, we
got it shipped there to, uh, don't

tell the, don't tell the customs.

but you know, we got it shipped there
so I could drive it back to the UK.

know, and we get the thing out of the
box and I'm putting it together and,

you know, I'm explaining what all the
knobs do and, you know, how, you know, it

controls the sharpness across, you know,
different planes and does all of the kind

of technical stuff that view cameras do.

And that was just, again, it was just
a very nice kind of shared experience.

Brad: Yeah.

No, that's great.

we can bond and create connection
and appreciate things together and

use these things as, as ways to,
to get closer to one another, and,

Andy Clarke: yeah, you know, it's a
commun- it's a cum- cumulative thing.

You know, it's, it's, it's my history with
the, with the company and the cameras and

Brad: Yeah.

Andy Clarke: stories around the

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: that I was at and, you
know, all of that kind of stuff.

And it's the craftsmanship around the
object, and it's the fact that we've

got this kind of shared connection
and all of those kind of things.

I think

Brad: I got,

Andy Clarke: it's a joy

Brad: I got, uh, I had a, had a friend
over to play some music, uh, last

weekend, and he brought out this Gibson
Les Paul beautiful, beautiful guitar.

And he says, "This is, this is a really
special moment because this is my dad's,

and this is the thing that I would be
sitting on his knee, and he would be

showing me, you know, the, the, the, the
chord shapes and, and the rest of it."

And he, he described how he had to
rescue this thing from a pawn shop

when his dad, uh, you know, kind
of fell on some, some hard times.

But he was j- he was like, "What do
you mean you pawned the guitar?" And

so he, like, he had to, like, really
go in and, like, fight and, like,

kinda get it, get it back, and that he
was like, "One day, I never was like,

'Hey, Dad, could I, you know, have that
guitar?'" But he, he was just like,

he, he thought of it as, as theirs.

And he said that, that recently his, his
dad was, was like, "Hey, I would like you

to, to have this." And he's like, "I wa-
I wasn't…" He's like, "I wasn't prepared

for, like, how emotional that would be.

I just, like, kinda, like, thought
that, I was like, this, this is this.

I hold this thing, like, a- as this,
like, sacred thing." But he said that

he just, like, really, like, his dad,
like, did a lot of… It, it sounds

like a lot of, like, contemplation.

And here's a son who's a
damn good guitar player.

Boy, oh boy, is he super talented and
very deserving of an instrument like that.

He… So he, so he busted this out for
the first time in my, in my basement.

And I was like, man, this feels like a,
a really, uh, a special moment to, like,

have this, this kind of full circle thing.

But a- all to say is just,
like, Words are often hard.

It's hard to, to say, like,
"I love you" sometimes.

It's like, like, I don't really come
from, like, a, a family like that,

and there, there's other things.

But there's, there's all these,
like, just different vessels and

ways to foster that connection.

And, and these objects and stuff
can do a good job at, at kinda

shouldering some of that load or to
make that connection a little easier.

Andy Clarke: Well, hopefully, I am,
I'm desperately hoping that the mailman

will bring me a tripod tomorrow, that I
can, I can properly assemble this thing.

And, uh, and of course, me
being me, I couldn't just go

and buy a tripod on Amazon.

I've had to actually find a 1990s
Phoba tripod for this thing to go on.

Brad: I mean, that checks out.

That checks out.

if you're skirting customs and,
uh, driving across countries

Andy Clarke: Don't, mention

Brad: You, you, you, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Don't put, don't put that thing
on a, on a $30 rickety tripod.

Uh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Andy Clarke: Yeah.

No, this thing's, this, this is, is gonna
have pride of place just, just over there.

I shall, I'll send you
a photo when it's up.

Brad: There we go.

Please

Andy Clarke: it would d- it'll
definitely be on my socials

Brad: There we go.

Please do.

Well, that, that might be, uh, we'll,
we'll leave people… We'll steer

people to your socials here in a second.

But so, the, the only other structured
question on this show is, is what music

would you like more people to know about?

Andy Clarke: See, I, I always
joke that my musical, my musical

listening stopped in about 1979.

Brad: That's okay

Andy Clarke: I, I have a
very eclectic music taste.

Um, I do listen to a huge
amount of modern country music.

So, you know, whether it's Megan
Moroney or, you know, Miranda

Lambert or, you know, a lot of
these kind of country artists.

I, I listen to a lot of country music.

more actually, it goes against brand.

My, my, my persona shouldn't
really admit this, but, you know.

I

Brad: The mod, yeah, yeah, the mod style

Andy Clarke: uh, well, I, yeah, I
listen to an awful lot more country

music than I listen to Motörhead.

although I do love Motörhead.

But see, Motörhead was a, was, was
again, was a shared experience.

You know, I, I grew up going
to see, listening to Motörhead

and going to Motörhead gigs.

When Alex was old enough, despite the
fact that I'm absolutely sure Alex

d- really doesn't like Motörhead,
we used to go every November and

go and see them play in Manchester.

So, you know,

Brad: Beautiful.

Andy Clarke: thing.

Brad: Beautiful.

Beautiful

Andy Clarke: what would I, what would
I want people to listen to more?

We had this thing on the, uh… We did a,
a crossover on the Unfinished Business,

um, one-footer podcast that I do with John
Hicks and, and Paul Boag and, and Richard

Rutter and Marcus and, and Ellington.

And we had a whole kind
of musical episode.

And my, you know, it's like, well, if
you could have one, you know, which

if you could take one or two tracks on
a desert island or on a spaceship, if

you were marooned on Mars, what would
be the music that you'd listen to?

And all of mine was like, you know, Bat
Out of Hell and old Led Zeppelin tracks.

Brad: You're bringing
meatloaf to the desert island?

Andy Clarke: I, I would, I
would take Meatloaf to, to Mars.

Absolutely.

here's what people should listen to.

It goes back to the, my kind of, you know,
upbringing and resonates with today's

political cultural problems, is I think
people should listen to early Billy Bragg

Brad: Hmm.

Okay

Andy Clarke: So lots of, um, you know,
union-supporting, anti-Conservative,

definitely anti-fascist stuff.

This is way before he did the
stuff with, uh, with, you know,

the Woody Guthrie stuff with

Brad: Yeah.

Andy Clarke: and

Brad: Yeah

Andy Clarke: so early,
early Billy Bragg, "Life's

Brad: Okay

Andy Clarke: Spy vs.

Spy," some of the early stuff, um,
"Between the Wars," there's "Power in

a Union," all of this kind of stuff.

So go and find the first
three Billy Bragg albums

Brad: Fantastic.

Yeah, that's great 'cause, 'cause that's,
yeah, I, I come in at the, the Wilco

part, so that's, that's gonna be good.

That's my homework for,
for, uh, after this.

This is fantastic

Andy Clarke: one bit of trivia is that
when I was in a band many, many, many,

many, many moons ago, we actually
supported Billy Bragg on his first tour.

Um, it was a coal miner's supporters
gig during the miner's-- the big

famous miner strike over here.

and it was just Bill and his trumpeter.

And, uh, I've still
got the backstage pass.

I wasn't any good, by the way, just in
case anybody thinks I'm like, you know,

I c- I could join your Frostapalooza.

they literally only hired me
because back in the 1980s, '70s,

'80s, I still had cheekbones.

I would be the, the enigmatic
keyboard player that would

stand behind a synthesizer, you
know, sucking his cheekbones

Brad: Hey, you're, you're do-
you're doing an important service,

uh, for the greater good there.

But that's fantastic.

That, like, but, but to have that
continuity as well, it's like,

it's, it's all lived experience

Andy Clarke: well, I still, I still
have this backstage pass which Bill

signed for me back in, I think it was
about 1981, '82, something like this.

Brad: Beautiful

Andy Clarke: Alex and
I go to see Bill play.

I've, I've, I've, you know, I, I will
go relatively regularly if I can.

but Alex and I went to see
Bill play in Liverpool,

at the end of the gig, I walked round to
the stage door and gave this backstage

pass to the bouncer and said, "Can you
ask Bill if this is still valid?" And

about five minutes later, the bouncer
came back and said, "Come with me." So we

ended up going back and, you know, Alex

gets-- I've got photos of Alex looking
very confused next to Billy Bragg

Brad: Well played.

That is very, very good.

That's a, that was a
smooth move right there.

Andy Clarke: So yeah, so that was

Brad: Oh, beautiful.

Well, yeah.

So all right.

So listening to some e-
uh, early Billy Bragg.

I guess the, the last question then
is, is where can people, uh, follow

along with what you're up to and,
and look at your, uh, camera progress

as well as your, your online work
and all of the, the rest of it?

Andy Clarke: Well, obviously
I'm a huge star on TikTok.

No,

Brad: Clearly.

Andy Clarke: That's not true whatsoever.

I don't think I've even
got TikTok installed.

people can usually find me the
old-fashioned way, which is on my

website, which is stuffandnonsense.co.uk.

all of the links to my various kind of
social meanderings are, are on there.

But yeah, I'm just

Brad: That is, uh, one of, one of the
most influential websites in, in my

career, so thank you for continuing
to be old-fashioned and, and, uh,

keeping Stuff and Nonsense going

Andy Clarke: It's still there.

It's still there.

I think I ought to, um, when we
finish this, I think I need to

go and drink an old fashioned.

I think that we- I've been wallowing
in nostalgia for the last two hours

Brad: Well, I appreciate that, that
wallowing and, and going down there.

But there's, there's something…
I, I think that you did a good job

at, at sort of wielding nostalgia
for, charting a path forward.

I think that there's, there's something
really powerful in, that emotion

and that sentiment that, that is,
is a very directional, uh, force.

So thank you for, for
painting that picture

Andy Clarke: I, I'm not gonna leave
it with your listeners thinking

that I'm in any way sentimental.

That would be really bad for
the brand Aren't I supposed to

be some kind of hideous badass?

Brad: the listener decide.

No comment.

Well, thank you.

Thanks a ton for, for being here.

This i- this is really great.

It's great to catch up and,

Andy Clarke: Yeah, it's

Brad: to, great to chat again.

Yeah

Andy Clarke: are you heading over
this way anytime soon to this

Brad: I need to make that happen.

I n- I need to make that happen.

So, uh, this is, uh, this is
my, the work in front of me.

Not, not this year, but,
but perhaps next year.

So

Andy Clarke: Well,

Brad: we'll make it happen

Andy Clarke: if you, if you come over
to, uh, to this continent, let me know

Brad: Love it.

I love it.

All right.

Well, take care, and if you're
still here, thanks for listening.

All right, bye.

All right