Accessible and Sustainable AI with Hidde

Brad: Hey

Hidde de Vries: Hey, so good to see you

Brad: It's good to see you too.

Let's, uh, let's get right into it.

What, what has you waking
up excited these days?

Hidde de Vries: lot of, a lot of
things, but I think for me, uh, and we

may get back to this later in the show
'cause I know you are excited about

this, but it has actually been music.

going back into, like, making sure I
listen to all the music I should listen

to, making lists and, like, figuring
out, oh, that person is related to that.

And, like, I've been spending a
lot of time going to gigs, figuring

out which albums to listen to
and, like, all that kind of stuff.

Like, in this age of, like, where we're
trying to automate everything, like,

finding out all these cool things that
have been made and, and are still being

made as well and then being released,
uh, to keep tabs on, on the music

has been keeping me busy, I think.

Yeah

Brad: That's amazing.

Uh, what, what have you been your,
your go-to tools and vehicles for being

exposed to music, but also like what
are you using to make those lists and,

and kind of sift through them and…
And, but also like what, what led

you to that place where that's been,
where your attention's been going?

Hidde de Vries: Yeah, I've
been using various tools.

Like there's websites that list gigs.

so when I travel, I travel for work
regularly, so I try and find out

like what's playing in that area.

There's a lot of websites
that, that do this, uh, like

Songkick and like, like others.

They're not always good, so I always try
and find out like what are local venues

and then look at their websites or frankly
like their Instagram, 'cause often, you

know, they don't update their websites.

and like, yeah, I try and, and use that
to find out about sort of live music.

Um, and for listening to music,
I started moving away from

streaming as, as many kind of nerdy
people have been doing, I think.

And I actually talk to people who
are like, "Oh, I've been doing this

forever." Uh, like it's been a thing.

But I've started, uh, collecting music
files instead of, of, of streaming, uh, to

make sure that I can listen to it offline
and like just have my own collection.

Brad: we should get into that, but
let's, let's stick with the live

music for first, because when, when
did you start going to shows just

as a byproduct of your work travel?

You're already in a place for a thing,
and you're like, "I'm gonna go do a

gig." Like, like when did that come to be

Hidde de Vries: It's been recent
actually, like the last couple of years.

I was chatting to my friend Dave, who
is organizing State of the Browser,

a really cool event in London.

And he was telling me this, like,
"I travel for music." Not just when

he travels for work, but he will
go to a different city enjoy music.

Uh, and in Europe, like you can take
a train from London to Paris in like a

couple of hours, and it is no problem.

Most people wouldn't do it.

They wouldn't even leave
their own city for music.

But it actually makes a lot of sense to,
uh, to do that because music is great.

And like you'll have fun in the
process because you'll end up

in or like meet weird people or,

Brad: Yeah.

Hidde de Vries: It has all sorts

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: to just be like,
"Yeah, that person is playing there.

I live

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: but I'm still
gonna try and make my way down."

Brad: Yeah.

Hidde de Vries: he

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: me into this, uh, and
he still does, 'cause he'll message me

and be like, "This thing is playing in
Brussels," which is like an hour away.

Brad: Pitre

Hidde de Vries: Yeah,
if he calls, I'll go.

Brad: Dave is a, is a gem of a
human being, that's for sure.

I'm, I've, I, I, I, I will be
talking to him at some point

as, as well, uh, on this show.

But, but I- So it's like there's, there's
friendly encouragement, but then there's

also this, this kind of deeper thing that
I think you, you beautifully articulated,

is that it comes in the form of, for me
at least, I, I will need to, if I, if a,

a show is coming, to the States, I will
often need to venture outward because

Pittsburgh tends to get hopped over, uh,

Hidde de Vries: Right

Brad: to… From somewhere between New
York and Chicago is a tour stop usually

in, like, Philly, but then they'll often,
like, sort of stop in Ohio or something.

And so if w- we get the kind of scraps
sometimes, which is a little sad.

But, but traveling for music specifically
does, you're like, "Oh, suddenly I'm in

a different city, and, uh, we need to
eat, and we need to get dressed up." But

the, the process of getting there, like,
in that moment I'm not thinking that.

It's, it's often, like, the chore
and I'm, like, looking at, like,

a calendar date and you're…

I'm just, like, struggling
with the logistics of it.

But then whenever we actually do it, it's
like, "Oh man, this is lovely. This is

great. We should do this all the time."

Hidde de Vries: And even the chore, I
feel like it's more fun than like, "Oh,

next week I have to do the dishes."
Like, I will not look forward to that.

But like,

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: "Oh, I'm going
to Brussels to see…" Like I

did a few weeks ago, went to see
Massive Attack with Dave, actually.

Uh, they were in Brussels, and it's,
it's a lot of fun working up to the

moment and being like, "Oh, yeah,
we should try and find some place to

eat," it makes the whole kind of music
experience worth it too, because it's

like you're making an effort to see this
thing because it is a special thing.

I wouldn't

Brad: Yeah.

Hidde de Vries: that effort
for doing mundane things, but

like listening to music, yeah.

Yeah.

Brad: Yeah.

and then there is the, the
experience itself, which, which

there's recorded music which has
been shrunken down, commoditized,

put into this endless stream.

But then there's, there's still the
experience of being present in a room

full of, of a certain kind of energy
and other people and, and having that

shared experience and, and that 100%
will never be, you know, commoditized

or, or like p- a lot of shit around
it will be, but like that experience

remains, I think, one of like the purest
forms of, of life experience where

you, you, you just know it to be good.

You know that it's like this is, this
is special, this is good, this is real.

Yeah.

Hidde de Vries: get

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: in our daily
work, and this is very pure.

I can't imagine, like, the musicians
to have, like, a Scrum meeting where

they're, like, doing all these kind
of thing, these things that we do.

And, and they are helpful, and they
make sense for our work and stuff.

But like, yeah, they're, really into that.

So I appreciate, uh, artists a lot

Brad: Yeah, yeah.

I- that's my hope through a lot of
this, this technological shift, is

that we will returning to, to value,
the artists and the people who are

able to make experiences happen and
to, to elevate people and deliver

those, those kind of pure, real thing.

I think, I think that everything else
will become this kind of very amorphous

stew with a lot of slop and bullshit
and the rest of it just kind of, like,

infiltrating and making it very difficult
to separate the signal and the noise.

And it's like, yeah, going, going
to a live concert is all signal.

Hidde de Vries: Yeah,

Brad: just, like, that's all it…

Hidde de Vries: out a lot more, right?

If it's

Brad: Yeah.

Hidde de Vries: signal.

Yeah, for sure

Brad: and that kind of brings into
the, the physical format that you're

kinda talking about as kind of, like,
migrating maybe away from the, the

streaming platforms and into more,
like, kind of here are these files and

it, and it sounds like you, you kind of
appreciate them or cherish them or think

of them or, or hold them in a different
regard than, oh, I could just, like,

search for the song and have it come up.

There's, there's, that's, like, a
scarcity almost or, or a weight to it

Hidde de Vries: Yeah.

Yeah, you carefully make sure you get
this album and not that album, or,

like, you listen to the whole thing.

It makes it kind of more… And I
started collecting vinyl like, like

everyone does at a certain age.

It's like, "Oh, vinyl is amazing."
I mean, I'm not old enough to have

a childhood growing up with vinyl.

Um, I think my dad probably
had some, but I don't think he

ever… Like, he would have CDs.

Um, but yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's
fun, but, um, it is not convenient.

Like, I can't take vinyl on

Brad: Yeah.

Hidde de Vries: with me.

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: so yeah, digital files
I've been, been enjoying, uh, a lot.

Yeah

Brad: That's great.

Yeah, and, and in a lot of ways
it's, a- and especially where you're,

we're sourcing those or it's like,
you know, like Bandcamp and the

things and the rest of the, uh,
the apparatus to kind of support

artists more directly still exists.

And,

Hidde de Vries: Yeah

Brad: I w- I was, I was
thinking of this thing.

I tried to, to vibe code a thing, uh,
that was if you're listening to an

artist just throughout your week, at
the end of the week you get a report.

and if you liked a song by an artist if
you were playing something on heavier

rotation, or you like a song and oh,
actually you had, you had already liked

a, a prior song by the same artist,
that it surfaces their website or their

Bandcamp link or their whatever and are,
and are like these like off-ramps to it.

So it's like the e- the, the convenience
of streaming but knowing that these are,

you know, fractions of a penny making
their way to, back to the artist to

j- to try to like just make it easier.

'Cause I, I think that
the, the will is there.

Like, a lot of people want to support
the artist more directly, but it's,

it's that friction of, "Oh, okay,
well, I gotta like go Google them.

I gotta do whatever." So it's like
what, what's the automatic way of,

Hidde de Vries: Yeah, if you've

Brad: of-

Hidde de Vries: at the merch
stands at concerts, like people

wanna like buy the merch and like
spend money on their artists.

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: Ticket sales are going
real quick as well sometimes, like to

be there in the first second to get
a ticket to, to some gig and stuff.

People wanna pay money
to their artists and they

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: wanna support for sure

Brad: and, and with respect to, to the
digital stuff, it just feels like there

has been just this, this, just a fast
current kind of away from all of that.

It just, it really took a, it, it took a
serious toll where all of a sudden those

T-shirt sales and those queues really
become… It's like that's, that's where

the, the food money is coming from, which,
which didn't always used to be the case.

So I, I do think that there, there is
something to, it's like reintroducing

scarcity, reintroducing digital scarcity

Hidde de Vries: Yeah.

Brad: And, and then making it
easy to, to, to, to, to cultivate

that and to, to make that happen.

It's like, I don't know.

That, that, that feels like
a fun design challenge.

Hidde de Vries: Right.

Yeah.

And we need it for websites too.

Like, how do you discover indie
websites, spend more time on them,

and make them worthwhile as well?

Brad: How do you discover indie
websites and make them work well?

That's a great question.

Hidde de Vries: Um, I just go on the
indie web and then I see all these

wonderful… I mean, I don't know.

I sometimes look for them.

I think they are easy to find if
you know what you're looking for.

Uh, and often you don't find
an indie website when you're

looking for one, right?

A lot of artists don't have
their own websites, um, or

like restaurants or stuff.

They'll be on social media instead.

but yeah, I guess like I just read
blogs and stuff that I just see links

to people's websites or like follow
them on social media and I'm like, "Oh,

nice. They've got a website, and it's
cool." Uh, they've got fonts that I

like or like colors or… This is still
very much alive, um, and people are

enjoying building their own websites.

so that's cool.

Yeah.

I, I think it's, it's great.

It is a little hard to discover
at times, especially with

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: kind of becoming less,
less useful at this or trying to keep the

traffic within Like, like, um, a lot, a
lot of search engines have become chatbots

and " Yeah, just stay in the chatbot.

We'll give you the answer." but yeah,
I'll still go to, to manual websites

and enjoy what they look like.

Brad: there's still the beauty of the
hyperlink in that once you're kind of on

somebody's website that is linking out
to another person's website or whatever,

it's like that, that's a, in my view,
another pure experience where it's like,

"Here's somebody taking the effort."
Like, I, I think about that because

it's like you can just make a passing
reference to something all the time.

I think that there's this, this
effort that goes into creating a

hyperlink that, again, just, just Web
1.0, just part of the fabric of it.

But, but that continues to be this,
uh, I think very, very special thing.

That's a decision.

It's, it's e- it's effort.

It's, it's… There's something going into
that, that, that enriches not just the

body of the thing that you're reading,
but that discoverability, that adjacent

idea or thought or other person's thing
is, is still just, it's such a beautiful

technology all these years later.

Hidde de Vries: it is, it is.

And it still works, which is surprising.

Like, I don't know of many inventions
that are, they are technology, that

actually stay around for that long,

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: and still work
in the same way and have the

same kind of benefits too.

Um, I think that's pretty cool.

and I actually wish that, maybe
my wish for the web is, like, that

more people would know how to build
something on it, 'cause it is fairly

simple technology, but although you
need to be someone involved or a bit

of a nerd to actually write the HTML.

But it was always meant to be like,
oh, anyone the street, you could stop

them and say, "Here's some HTML. Like,
write some HTML." Like, it, it, it's not

complicated, but you do need to know a
lot of things to actually ship a website.

I think we could still
make that a lot easier.

What do you think?

Brad: this is something you're, you're
perfectly equipped to, to speak to

this because I see There's the indie
web movement that I have been, um,

around but not directly involved
in, largely because despite me doing

this stuff professionally, I would
be like, "Oh, okay," like, "Let me

get web mentions hooked up," or,
like, just, like, some other stuff.

Like, on, you know, in certain
respects I have the core ingredients

in place and, and have for a while.

But then there's been, like, the
other stuff that is just like,

ah, this is really, really cool.

But it's always kinda felt a little
bit like, yeah, here's your computer

kit and go build your computer,
your Linux-powered computer.

And I'm like, "Ah." back to what you
were just alluding to, where there's

all of these artists, and there's all
of these people, and there's all of

these, you know, people doing amazing
things in the world that have defaulted

in the, in the local music venues and
the rest of it, have defaulted to social

media just because it's like, ah, okay,
they, they, they, they made it easy

despite, you know, you know, the fact
that, that they don't own this stuff.

They're not in control.

They're not in the
driver's seat or whatever.

But it's fast and, and frictionless.

And so I'm wondering about this, this
new age where that HTML know-how, that

CSS know-how, um, that, that level of,
of plumbing isn't so much of a barrier

to people who ought to have websites and,
and value them and, and, and have them.

I, I'm curious to get your thoughts on
that because th- this gets into that,

what I see is AI making this stuff that
we value more accessible to more people.

This is one of the, the hard tensions
that I, I'm… This is one of the big

reasons why I wanted to talk to you is I
think that you've been very clear-headed

at being able to sort of speak to a lot
of the, the downsides as well as the

opportunities of, of this technology.

But when we're talking about here's
a bunch of great people, local music

venues, independent artists, all of these
thing, people that should have websites,

people that are out there produ- making
good stuff to go out in the world, and

here is this amazing technology called
the World Wide Web that's still working.

Hold down the fort.

Amazing.

And we want to continue to value it.

We don't wanna be like, "I, I, like,
remember that." And so that needs to

stay alive these new dynamics that are
kind of sucking the air- less towards the

worldwide web and more towards just…

It's almost kinda inwards or,
or it's sucking things towards

platforms or centralization or of,
of s- some way, shape, or form.

But it, it doesn't feel it's like, "Ah,
yes, this is, these are, like, the,

the boom years for, for the worldwide
web." Or, or maybe, I don't know, maybe,

maybe I'm just not in the right places,

Hidde de Vries: Yeah.

Well, seeing the web kind of go to, like,
people who deserve to have websites like

restaurants or artists or whatever, seeing
them go to some place like, like Instagram

where you can't even make a hyperlink.

Like, they have this thing where they're
like, "Yeah, you go to my link in

bio, and then you go to the bio, and
then there's like a of links or like

services that provide lists of links."

And it's all kind of awkward
if you think about it.

Um, but everyone is like, sure,
that this is now our reality.

I think that was a step away from the
web that we have that isn't great.

But the step that kind of is happening
now is probably even worse when it

goes into the big, chatbot machine
where you're just kind of inside

a chatbot and get information ways
that isn't actually your own words.

It's like reused and scrambled
and mixed and, and changed.

Uh, and it may not credit you.

Like is, that is a big worry to me, like
that people don't even have any control

over how their information is presented.

the flip side of it, like using this
technology for people to actually

make their own websites like you were
alluding to, I think that's pretty cool.

Uh, like if you don't know how HTML,
CSS works, but you can give some

prompts and describe kind of what you
want, you want that link to be yellow,

or you want that thing to be at the
top or at the bottom or whatever.

I think that kind of thing gives
me more hope, like if people can be

creative, uh, without knowing the
exact technological, um, side of

things, I think that is quite exciting.

Uh, it is somewhat worrying to me as an
accessibility expert, uh, seeing that

because I know what could go wrong.

also know what could go good or well,
so we need to make sure it, it, it

happens in a, in a good way or have the
right sort of checks and, and balances.

Um, but I'm also seeing it on a lower
level where it's like- If you don't

know how this API works or how to
install this CMS, the fact that you

can ask a very unclear question and
get a very clear answer back, uh, where

it goes like, "You need to be here in
the docs," I think that is something

that of these AI tools offer that also
makes web development a lot easier.

Uh, where like before you maybe have
to go on a forum or write a blog post

and then wait, uh, many hours or years,
uh, to get an answer, you can now kind

of get pointed in the right direction.

I don't see answers to be correct
all the time, but I see pointing

in the right direction as
something that's helpful in itself.

and like the, the documentation
use case is pretty phenomenal.

Um, and yeah, I think that
that could help people who, who

wanna make their own website.

It's still also a problem of like, okay,
you have a website, you need to host it

somewhere, and you need a domain name, and
that needs to be paid monthly or whatever.

Like, these kinds of structures are
just hard for people to understand,

especially if the would be something
like a social media platform where nobody

ever asks you for your credit card.

They just want your, of your
data and your whole life.

you don't need a contract or something
in place, and I think that's something

that's really hard to, to make easier.

Maybe governments should hand out
domain names when you're born.

Like, "Here's your passport. Here's your
domain name. that's your FTP credentials,

and here you go." Um, and make it a
whole lot easier 'cause it's, you know,

it could be public ins- infrastructure.

Brad: I, I, I freaking love that.

Hidde de Vries: websites.

Brad: That would, that
would be pretty wild.

I'm sure that's been discussed at
least somewhere, or at least at,

like, a national level probably.

Hidde de Vries: I should say
I work for the government.

This is not an official
government announcement.

This is

Brad: This is, this is, this is you
saying, "We should do this." Oh my God.

Uh, but, but I do think, I do think
that you're right is that there's

this kind of, like, last mile thing.

I actually just went through this process
with, um… So my wife works as, at, um,

uh, like a private counseling firm doing
sort of therapy and arts therapy, and

kinda working on updating their website
from an old, uh, Wix-powered website,

which again, no shade on them, but
it's just like, you know, she's a small

business owner trying to run a therapy
practice, do good by the community, and

it was just, like, very prohibitive for
her, and it's like the, her results,

because she wasn't, you know, she isn't
a professional designer, developer,

anything like that, So w- through a few
sessions that included us kind of, like,

kinda collaborating and, and running
quite a bit of that through LLMs to help

with this process and to kind of, like,
distill her values and her goals and,

like, how she wants to be accessible
and inclusive and, like, all of…

Like, these are critical for us.

This is, you know, woven into my DNA.

I need to make sure that these things go.

To see that kinda translated into an
experience was really, really cool.

She, she was like, "Whoa, that's, that's
really neat." And then we kinda got to

the end where it's the, "Okay, cool,
now it's time to deploy this thing."

I see that as, you know, a huge
opportunity to make that stuff just

be, "Yep, here's the domain I want.
Here's, here's the service. I, you

know, just, just make me a website."
I, I don't even really, like, care

what it… I don't care what CMS it is.

I don't care what whatever is, but I, I,

Hidde de Vries: Yeah

Brad: do, do need it to live at a
domain, and I do need it to, like, be

live, and if I say I want changes to
that website, I want those changes to,

to make their way out into the world.

It does feel like there's like, that
could evolve as well to, to become

more accessible, uh, to, to folks and,

Hidde de Vries: a lot of plumbing
that, yeah, could be taken away

or like abstracted away, I guess.

Like people wanna pick their
own domain name, they probably

don't wanna set up DNS or other

Brad: No.

Yeah, no

Hidde de Vries: because yeah, it's hard.

But that's the same thing with like in
your house, you may have an electrician

to help you with certain parts of your

Brad: Yep.

Yep

Hidde de Vries: don't know if I do.

I, I definitely do.

Like I don't know much to do with
my hands, like usually I, I need

to hire someone to help me out

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: in a house.

which I'm a bit embarrassed about,
but also like there is so much stuff

that they know, like if you drill
here, could explode or whatever.

Um, I wanna make sure a
professional looks at that.

But somehow for the web, I feel like we
should make it possible for that to work

even without professional intervention.

Maybe it's a pipe dream, but it would
be cool, uh, because we would get a

web that has more interesting content,

Brad: th- and this kinda speaks to, uh,
things like web standards where it's

just like, yeah, you have a bunch of
people interfacing, creating web code.

We want… They would say, "I care about
accessibility." They would ca- say,

"I care about, you know, this stu-"
You know, if you were to say, "Here's

what that means," and 100% of people
would be like, "Oh yeah, of course.

Yeah, like that's, that's table
stakes, that's a given," and you

know better than nearly everyone that
that's a lot easier said than done.

But this gets to the point of kind of
like smart defaults, and this gets to

the land of, of design systems, and
this gets to the land of, well, how

do you just make the easy and default
thing the right thing, the accessible

thing, the thing that's built using
the sturdy foundations so that anyone

can pick those things up and assemble
them and have a much better chance?

It's not gonna get to 100%, but it's at
least not going to be totally butchered.

And I think that that matters a lot
more than it did whenever we kind of

first started talking about this i-
idea of like, like a global design

system or sort of something that's just
like… Having something that's like

less a de facto standard that everyone
has to go through this gory process to

ultimately arrive at the exact same place.

It's like, man, just like,

Hidde de Vries: Yeah

Brad: we just park that stuff in like
the right place, hit it hard, hold it up

and say, "Here's the, here's the defaults
that we, we use for just your basic form

fields for your basic like, your basic
common stuff." Like, and then, and then of

course, yeah, tr- train and retrain these,
these LLMs to be sort of scooping that

stuff up and wielding it by default rather
than whatever the hell it's doing now

Hidde de Vries: Yeah, I love that we got
to a bunch of that with OpenAI, like as

an example, where there are a couple, like
the customizable select kind of things.

It's great that these will
now have accessible defaults.

Like, I think the trick in it is that
people need to understand that you won't

get all of your accessibility for free.

You will only get the specific bits
that the browser can know what to

do with at build time or whatever.

And then there's still stuff that
you'll need to do, uh, as, you

know, someone developing websites.

Uh, but just to take away, like, at least
the bits that the browser could easily do

itself, uh, I think is a huge opportunity.

Uh, and I, I hope we'll be able to add
more things, but it's great to have

it in places like popover and, and

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: where it's just
like, yeah, a dialogue, making a

dialogue that works is easier now.

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: still not extremely
easy because we need anchor

positioning, and we need, like, uh,
all of this to work actually well.

Um, I was actually, yesterday, I was
building a popover prototype for WCAG.

We're working on WCAG 3, and I thought
one UI pattern there could be to do a

little popover to hide some complexity.

that is actually hard,
and I worked on popover.

Uh, but, like, to actually get it
to work on all the browsers and

do, like, the positioning without

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: around with libraries,
uh, it's still not entirely there.

We're almost there, but there's,
like, a little bit of last miles

that need to, uh, to happen.

Brad: And that, that's just…
I can't thank you and the rest

of the people who do that work.

Like, I, I think that I've always kind
of from afar appreciated y'all's work,

because it's like it's operating at
a much deeper… Like, it's, it's not

just the, "Ah, just ship it. Like, we'll
figure it out later." There's just,

like, so much more that goes into it,
and that it is an iterative process,

and there's so much coordination.

There's so much, like, that needs to
happen to get these things that at the end

of the day feel Like, it's not like you're
gonna get on, like, a giant conference

stage with, like, you know, fireworks.

It's, it's all this just, just kind of
just that hard-earned infrastructure

that just kinda shows up and that's
just been run through the wringer

Hidde de Vries: parts that aren't perfect
and stuff because of all the steps

that led to there, like popover being
an element first and then becoming an

attribute, like just learning along the
way, uh, what, what would work the best

and what would be the right approach.

Uh, yeah, it's been a long process,
but also really fun to see it happen.

Um, and I think we were really lucky with
a very smart group of people that, uh,

were also partly working on the browser so
they could actually implement it there and

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: what would happen.

And a lot of stuff happened we
was all like, "Oh, this won't

work," or, "This needs some extra
accessibility bits," or whatever.

you learn while you do, and you need
to get it right because it will ship

everywhere and it's really hard to
unship, uh, web platform features.

Like, they will be there forever

Brad: with the hyperlink, uh, uh,
fast-forward a few decades and,

and it's still doing its thing.

And like, uh, like all of these
things, it's, it's, they're,

they're designed to, to last.

There's a, this, this spirit and attitude
around kind of like long-term planning,

long-term thinking, and that just flies
in the face of, I feel like, what we're

all experiencing right now, which is
just this frenetic hype cycle that

has just kind of pulled us, you know,
into this very fast-moving current.

And I, I, curious to get your take as
someone who operates along, you know,

as a, as a practitioner doing work,
uh, you know, and applying what you're

building at the basement at, at the
slowest moving kinda pace layer, standards

level, all the way up through, and
then kinda seeing the, the fastest pace

layers starting to like kind of play.

How are you kinda navigating this moment
and that kinda tension between all of

just the, what, what feels like a very
real juxtaposition of, of pace layers?

Hidde de Vries: it's really hard.

But while we're in the moment, it's
easier to keep that slow pace because

you're doing is at the slow pace.

Like, working in web standards
is always a slow pace because

there are so many different
actors that are involved with it.

Like the, the World Wide Web
Consortium has got, I think, 300

members or something like that.

Uh, they all have different
opinions and different ways of

looking at what they're doing.

Like, we've got civil society
organizations, and we've got browser

makers, and we've got car makers, and,
like, all these different people that are

working with web technology, uh, that are
trying to build AI into the web, but also

UI and, like, there, there are a lot of
different people doing different things.

Um, but yeah, to, to try and get
agreement with a lot of different

people and, and make it really
good, that has to be a slow pace.

At the same time, like, that
fast-paced world is als-also happening.

Um, and we're witnessing it, and I
think it's sometimes great to be at the

slower pace because you also don't have
to jump into every single bit of hype.

Like, that's something that helped
me in my, like, web career is like,

I-I'm usually quite late on the train.

Like, when React came out, it took me
many years to start using it for the

first time, and I don't really regret
that because it means that I didn't

have to a lot of different versions and
a lot of changes and a lot of drama.

I could just use it when
it was at a stable kind of

state, if it was ever there.

Like, there's a-- know, it's
easier to kind of jump on

late, uh, when the AI is done.

When we have AGI, I will

Brad: Yeah.

Hidde de Vries: that train or

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: Uh, I'm, I'm
comfortable being late because I

know that when it's later, it's
probably also gonna be more mature.

Um, and there's a lot of, yeah,
benefit to, to kind of being

on that slower, uh, pace too.

And you

Brad: I think

Hidde de Vries: impact, I guess.

Brad: Yeah.

I, I think people really
need to hear that.

I think, like, like what would
you say to somebody, and sort of

specifically thinking of, you know,
the person who's gotten started, let's

say, in the field within the last
five years, l- l- let's, let's say.

You know?

So somebody that's like still early,
still trying to like find their like

footing, I think that so many people
are just frantically treading water,

trying to keep their head above water,
that it's like difficult to even think

about going like, do you even need to
be in this water in the first place?

Or, or, or

Hidde de Vries: yeah,

Brad: could you be wi- like watching
from the, the, the safety of the banks

Hidde de Vries: So much depends
on where you work as well.

Like, there are a large part of our
industry is, like, moving towards you must

use AI, you must do this or follow the
hype, and people are afraid to be Uh, I

quite recently joined the government, like
one and a half years ago or something, and

one thing that's great about that is that
the incentive is really a-around citizens.

Like, we need to make things that
are good for citizens, and maybe the

parliament will get questions, and
then we might need to respond to that.

But, like, the general kind of gist
of it is you can do things that make

sense for the world, whereas if you work
in the business, have to be much more

focused on shareholder value in the end.

Uh,

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: even if it doesn't have
shareholders, like, profit has to be made.

Um, and it is a lot harder.

If you're starting out, I, I have
had conversations with people

who recently start out, and
I, I think it is a lot harder.

I always think back about when I
started out and in a sense, like,

it was just a lot more welcoming.

Like, people were trying
to help each other.

You could view source and see, like,
what people were doing and, like,

um, pace was a lot slower as well.

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: so I, I try and,
and empathize with people who are

new, and I also realize that when I
started out, I had it a lot easier.

So I, I don't really know how
to, how to package that in

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: a helpful thing
to, to people who are new.

Um, I do try and encourage them
to of stay calm and try and, yeah,

sort of not always jump on every
hype cycle if you don't have to.

Um, but yeah, it really depends, and I
recognize that in a lot of companies,

that's not a choice that you have.

Uh, I know that people are being
counted by the token, uh, these days.

Like, you come to your yearly review,
and it's like, "How many tokens have

you used?" Um, it's sad, I think.

Uh, and

Brad: sad.

It's

Hidde de Vries: like,

Brad: so sad

Hidde de Vries: if you're in that company,
I don't blame you for trying to, I guess,

Brad: What?

Yeah.

But that's, that's just it, is like,
yeah, everyone will, you know, w-

we have no choice but to operate
within the, the, the, the systems

at a s- at a government level, at a
company level, at a society level.

It's like the way that these
systems are in place, what's

incentivized, what's rewarded, what's
penalized, like influences human

behavior at the end of the day.

And when you have this just like fast,
frenetic thing that's just been, you

know, injected into the bloodstream of
every aspect of society, and everybody

is just getting… I, I, I just feel
this, this, yeah, vibrating, like

anxious, fast-moving energy just kind of
like infiltrating every nook and cranny

across the board seemingly, that it's…

It feels very hard to, to
paint a different picture.

And I think that it, it
is important to say that.

I, I always think back to like, there's
always the, uh, you going back to your

React experience, I think, like that was
kind of almost like the training ground

for this, this latest shift, is like React
is certainly, uh, like captured a lot of

the attention and like it was well talked
about, it was like hyped about, you know,

it was, it was everybody kind of out
there, you know, pontificating about it.

But then it's like when you like zoomed
out and you looked at like the, the

market shar- share of, what technologies
are actually powering the web, and

you're like, "Oh, this is like actually
pretty small." And it's just like, it

just happens to be this very visible,
very new, exciting… And again, like

it, and it's not a knock on it, it
was just, it was a phenomenon, right?

Like in a, in a lot of ways.

And so we kinda had to discern wherever
you were on that, that sort of hype cycle,

that it's just like, "Ah, like yeah,
do I want to take this bait?" Or, but,

but just, to just even be reminded that
it's like, oh yeah, like the majority

of the web is, is not this, and so
maybe this isn't so do or die for me.

And same way that all of the stuff that
existed before AI hit the scene, all of

the technologies, all of the applications
of those technologies, all of just the,

the opportunities, the, the constraints,
all, all of that stuff is, is still there.

And then this is just yet another thing.

It, it, it, it, it is part of
the equation now, but it's not

necessarily like the entire equation.

And

Hidde de Vries: Yeah.

Brad: difficult

Hidde de Vries: that's an important thing
to encourage folks as well, that you

don't have to-- you don't always have
to do this unless, like, forced by your

management or whatever, I understand.

But a lot of cases, it can just make
sense to not do the hypey thing.

I'm, uh, I'm doing a talk on AI and
sustainability tomorrow where I do five

tips related to AI and sustainability,
and I have like a six bonus tip, which

is don't, don't use it for the thing.

Like, it is okay.

And I wanna remind people, like,
it is okay to have a use case where

you're actually like, "Okay, this
is gonna be an Excel sheet," or it's

gonna be a couple of lines of Python.

It doesn't have to be hooked up to
an LLM or like something like that.

Uh, and we are sometimes made to feel
like that, like we must include the

latest tech or we're gonna fall behind.

I'm always afraid of falling behind, like
when my kids come home with some funny

new word that I never heard, and then it's
like, "Oh, I'm not cool anymore," right?

But we can't run a
business like that, right?

We can't just sort of base ourselves on
like, "Oh, I'm afraid to fall behind."

I don't know, like you need to be
creative in yourself as well, and sort

of, I mean, the artists, we started
talking about musicians at the start,

like they don't, they're not afraid
they will fall behind, I don't think.

They come out with cool new
albums that are completely

different than the stuff before.

And I think, yeah, I hope that we,
like in the industry also continue to

realize that like we don't have to do
the latest and greatest, uh, because

the latest and greatest might be the
thing that nobody's talking about, and

the majority may not be actually doing
the cutting-edge stuff like with React.

Like, yeah, it was a small part,
but talked about very loudly.

Uh, and a lot of people are just kind
of continuing onwards with a website

that was much, um, much simpler

Brad: It's interesting that the web has
been around long enough for us to have

some, at least some historical precedent
now, and you have this idea of, like,

the, uh, uh, like, the, the arc of here's
server page, uh, server-rendered, uh,

web pages, and then it's just, like…
In, in React's heyday it was like, yeah,

here's, like, a blank body document.

We're just gonna write the entire
web page, uh, using JavaScript.

And then it took the better part
of a decade to go back around and

then, you know, not, not going,
"Whoops," like we made a mistake,

but, "Oh, here's this, like, hot new
thing called hot module reloader."

Hidde de Vries: in the history,
that hasn't actually turned

out to be the perfect solution.

Like, the perfect thing doesn't exist and
we'll, we'll continue to circle around.

So yeah, often it makes sense to
just, you know, chill and, and do,

Brad: Yeah.

Hidde de Vries: do it carefully.

Brad: Yeah.

Hidde de Vries: of

Brad: Be-

Hidde de Vries: around are,
like, built 15 years ago and, and

are still kind of going strong.

We

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: Day last year,
I think, and their website has

continued to be the same for however
many years they're doing it now.

Um, and it's fast, it works, it's good.

Um, so yeah, many of the cases, like it
actually works to keep things, uh, simple

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and, and that, that CSS Day talk
was y- y- and you're, you mentioned it

earlier that you're talking about it
tomorrow, and th- this is one of the

biggest topics, maybe the thing that,
that had me finally reach out to you,

as I was like, "I really am craving and,
and need to get some great perspective

on this moment, AI and sustainability,"
to put a finer point on it, because I

think that what I tend to see is, like a
lot of things, is that things just kind

of, end up stratifying into the, the,
you know, hard edges of the spectrum.

And I think that there's a lot of
nuance, there's a lot of, like,

here's like the real reality of
AI's impact on the environment.

But then the, the things that we can and
should be doing as, again, more people

are just have that, that, as we've
been sort of alluding to, this, this

pressure to, to use it at all costs.

So, so really your, your talk was so
great and level-headed and showed some

real, like practical things that we
can do as practitioners, in that it's

again, kind of avoiding that, like all
or nothing, like just don't use it.

But like, like you were alluding
to earlier, it's like, yeah, not

everything needs to be run through this.

Like, this is yet another tool in
the toolkit, and you don't have to

reach for it for any and all things.

yeah, would be really curious to get
your take on like from the time you

gave that talk to the talk you're giving
tomorrow Like what's, what's changed?

Where are your, where's your head at?

Hidde de Vries: Well, that one,
so I, at CSS I talked about

making the web more sustainable.

My talk tomorrow is AI and sustainability,
so it's a bit more focused on AI.

But a lot has changed as well, uh, and
I've started to realize more and more

that the impact of AI is so much bigger.

Like, it isn't like 1 or 2%
bigger, but it's like many

times bigger, magnitudes more.

Uh, and that is fascinating to me, And
also if you look at the numbers, like they

are expecting 20 to 30% increase of energy
use every year because of generative AI.

Um, that's scary because we need that
number to go down, and we agreed in

Paris to have that number go down.

scientists are fairly clear on
like the number go down, even like

a little bit, is going to matter.

Every bit is going to matter, and if
it goes up, it's also going to matter.

It's going to get hotter and like
we'll get more, more disasters,

uh, which makes it something that
is really worth, uh, focusing on,

Brad: Yes

Hidde de Vries: then worth
trying to find solutions for.

And there are actually a lot of like
practical, uh, solutions too, like where

using generative AI, you can use smaller
models, you can use more specific models.

Like if you're doing a model that's
around doing taxes, it doesn't

need to know what the capital
of France is, um, for instance.

Like, there's so much knowledge
in these, like we stuck the whole

world's knowledge into a model.

It probably doesn't need to know
most of the things that are in there.

A bit like Tailwind, for instance,
like it has classes for everything

you could possibly do on a website.

But if you're not doing most of
those things, uh, I used to say this

about Bootstrap I guess, like you
just get a lot of things that you

don't need, uh, but with AI, like
that is, uh, that is a lot bigger.

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: there's a lot
of optimizations people can do,

like they can use smaller models,
they can use more focused models.

Um, and that is, that is going to help.

Also, distinguishing the
different kinds of AI is helpful.

Uh, generative AI is a lot
bigger, magnitudes bigger in

terms of, uh, CO2 emissions than
what they call traditional AI.

Like if you're at Apple Maps and you're
trying to find out how to get home,

is using AI, it's not generative AI.

It's like way finding type of AI.

When I, I studied AI in university
like 15 years ago, one of my first

assignments was do the quickest route
between A and B, and it was the kind

of thing that we had to work on then.

and that is, is definitely AI,
but it's a different type, and it

also uses a lot less energy than

Brad: Yeah.

Hidde de Vries: stuff.

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: can be like
using a helicopter to go to work.

That's kind of using way too much,
uh, effort to do something that, uh,

maybe doesn't have as much value.

Um, so yeah, finding the right focus
is important, like what, what sort of

things are actually, uh, impactful.

Um, and, and yeah, using the
right definitions is important,

uh, because there are a lot of
artificial intelligences that

are all kind of different.

Uh, and the same kind of
goes for sustainability.

Like there are a lot of angles to,
there is the impact on the planet,

but also in a lot of definitions
of sustainability, we also look at

social impact and profit impact.

It's

Brad: Yep

Hidde de Vries: that perfect
balance between people and

profit and, what's the last one?

The planet.

Yeah.

So people, profit, planet is
the three that we often use.

Yeah.

Brad: as you were sort of talking
about like the different models and

a lot of that stuff, I thi- I can't
help but think, it's like, boy there

n- there needs to be more affordances.

Like right now all of this is ju-
it just shows up in a, in a select

drop-down of like equal weight.

It's like you almost want that,
that like, you know, it, it- the key

to your helicopter should be like
the keychain should have a giant

coconut on it, you know what I mean?

You're, you're like, "Th- this is
cumbersome. Like, like I'm not going to

reach for this by default." But right now
like everything is just like showing up.

It's just, it's all flat and,
and behind that are some like

real decisions that, that

Hidde de Vries: Yeah

Brad: im- like you say, like steer things
from, you know, going up or, or nudging

it downwards and it's like that, those
are design, those are design things.

And like that obviously, you know,
a lot of the, the design of the, you

know, the interfaces that people are
using with it, it's like that, that,

that stuff is fascinating to me.

But yeah, I'd be, I'm curious if like
the, you've seen anything that's just

like done a good job at like kind of
injecting or, or kind of surfacing more

of that kind of like impact to people
in, in their, in their daily rhythm.

'Cause it, it's, it's, it's hard to…
Shit's hard enough to just conceptualize

in our minds and then like we kind of
like, again, under a bunch of pressure,

hurry, hurry, use this, whatever.

And so th- there's just like a lot of
weird tensions that I think are tugging at

people and it's hard to be like, "Here's
this thing that's an abstract concept.

We're not good at thinking in that, at
that scale at different time lengths." And

it's like there's gotta be some like ways
that we could just kinda like build that

stuff into the, the fabric of using it.

Hidde de Vries: Yeah,

Brad: don't know.

Hidde de Vries: a great idea there
'cause a lot of what makes it so

hard to reason about this is that
like AI is presented as like this

abstract concept or like a dropdown
of like choose this model or that.

But kind of behind that is like
this huge physical infrastructure.

Like I drove past one of the largest Dutch
data centers the other day, and it's huge.

Like you can drive past it for minutes.

It's very big.

and that kind of physicality of what we're
actually doing, uh, yeah, it's, it's very

easy to hide that and, and not show it.

luckily we have capitalism because
this costs a lot of money as well, so

like the sustainability impact is often
related to spend in terms of money.

Uh, it costs

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Hidde de Vries: money to run these
systems because they're so big.

Uh, and eventually if people run out
of VC money, things are gonna get more

expensive, and then we'll have our
nudge, uh, that way because it will just

cost too much to, to do these things.

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: really seen great
UIs that, that solve for this.

Um, very few, like some of them
will have the word mini next to a

model when you, when you pick it,
so you can see that one is smaller.

But there is very little explanation
of like there are a couple of LLMs that

will tell you the CO2 output or like CO2
emissions associated with your query.

but that kind of thing
is, is still really rare.

It's also really hard to measure because
a lot of the big AI companies don't wanna

Brad: Sure.

Hidde de Vries: what

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: usage is.

They recently lobbied the European
Commission successfully to get that data,

uh, marked as, uh, business sensitive
so that they don't have to share it.

and that has now become part of
the European, uh, regulation.

Uh, they don't wanna share it, and that's
a problem because we need that information

and like to have it in the right level of
detail so that we can actually build UIs

that maybe, describe that kind of thing

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

that's the hard rub is that
it's, like, same as it ever was.

You have companies doing their
best to try to obfuscate and skirt

responsibility, and, and that does
require us, our collective investment

and, and holding feet to fire and
doing what we can in our own lives.

But i- it's, like, it… The, the
corollary to things like recycling

feel apt in certain respects, right?

And, and that was, like, the, the reduce,
reuse, recycle stuff was all kind of

PepsiCo, you know, kind of like, "Oh,
we're just going to pass the buck on-

onto here." And, and don't get me wrong,
it's like, yeah, we absolutely should

be reducing, reusing, and recycling.

But it's like at the end of the day,
if they're able to, like, kind of

continue to, to operate in, in these
ways, it's, it's… Our individual

actions are going to be a drop in
a bucket of, of, of a bigger thing.

And so I, I guess, like, like, are
there organizations or, or, places that

you've seen doing good work at kind
of, like, that kind of advocacy for

sustainable AI development and things
that, like, people can, could either,

like, contribute to or, like, sign
up for or, or educate themselves on?

Hidde de Vries: Yeah, there's
a lot of different ones.

Like around the web, I love
the Green Web Foundation.

They do a lot of great work around making
the web more sustainable and also share

a lot of research that they're doing.

There's also the Green Software
Foundation that are, I think,

friendly with one another.

Uh, they are more focused
on, on software at large.

Uh, and I believe they also have
some stuff around, um, around AI.

Uh, and there, yeah, there are a
lot of like different organizations

working on, uh, yeah, sharing data
and then finding out how can we

start measuring what happens in data
centers and make it more available

so that people can make more informed
decisions about this sort of thing.

Uh, and that's very much needed.

Um, and yeah, great to see a
lot of innovation in that, that

area as well 'cause it's gonna
help people make better choices.

And I think they're great because
like you say, it's gonna be up to

individual to recycle, but if your
individual choice is something you do

on behalf of a huge corporation, you can
suddenly make a huge impact with that.

Uh, because if large companies decide
to use smaller models, it can reduce a

Brad: Yep.

Yep, yep.

Yeah, and I think it is important for
people to understand that, that like

wherever they're sitting in a, you
know, wherever you work, you, you are

in a position of influence, right?

If you're, if you're like paying attention
to this stuff, if you care about this

stuff, it's like you're in some way,
shape, or form in the driver's seat.

Like, usually we've been the same
people that we have our family members

saying, "The printer's broken,"
or, "Please fix my, my email or

my Facebook login," or whatever.

Hidde de Vries: Yeah

Brad: like these are the same people
that are kinda now going, "Okay," like,

"Here's, here's AI." And I, I think
that there is, there is a, you know, we

have a, a responsibility to, kinda steer
people and like help guide things to-

towards more like re- responsible choices,
and that's, that's education advocacy.

Hidde de Vries: all, you are
all bad people or whatever.

It, it's we need to understand that
these people are trying to do the right

thing and actually give them tools to
understand how they make better choices.

it's the same with accessibility and
something that we're learning constantly.

Like, we cannot go, "You're wrong."
Uh, especially like if they're

individuals, uh, we need to give
them the right tools to get it right.

Um,

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: that's a fine line.

Like, if people willfully ignore what
they know and, and do a bad job when they

should have done the right job, okay,
we need to regulate that, and luckily we

are for accessibility and sustainability.

but yeah, giving people the right tools
is usually the most productive way as

well to kind of bring that change about.

so we need better defaults basically.

Um, and I hope they're, they're coming.

Brad: that corollary to accessibility
is, is dead on, and that was always

my frustration with accessibility in
general, is that it's just, like, my,

my read on it, and tell me if this is
right or, or, or wrong, but, like, I,

I've seen it get so much better over
the years, which is great, but I, I

think that there's, there's this kind
of very noble cause of accessibility.

The web is built for everyone irrespective
of their ability, and we have an

obligation, and that translates to a
lot of passion to ensuring that that

happens, and then whenever people fall
short, it, it, it, it, that passion

comes out in the form of, of, like,
"Let me yell at you pretty good. And,

and if I yell at you hard enough, then
you're gonna get it right and care."

And, and I, I, I've alwa- I always found
that to be kinda counterproductive, and

I feel like there, you know, a lot of
people, you know, mutual friends and

yourself included and stuff I think have
done a much better job at kind of, like,

making it just feel more like this, this
is something you, you want to be doing.

We are all here.

We're all… You know, there's,
you know, progress, not perfection,

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And I think that that, that
kind of healthier attitude

is, is welcome and needed

Hidde de Vries: It is really
important to stay, stay positive.

what makes it so hard is that
it's a, it's a human right.

We, we need equality.

Uh, people have the right
to have the same access.

Uh, they're not getting it, and
sometimes for the wrong reasons, because

there's not enough investment or people
aren't paid to do the thing properly.

Um, so I, I, I fully understand
the frustration that practitioners

have, where it's like, you
know, this should be accessible.

You're paid a lot of money to do
this project, and you forgot that

important bit where it actually
affects my friends or myself or, you

know, people in general because they
have the right to get equal access.

Um, but yeah, getting there is usually,
like, the path is usually positivity.

We have to stay positive
if we don't like it.

Um, and there are many times where I
don't like it, where I'm like, well,

know, you are awarded this amount
of money to execute this project.

You cannot go, "I forgot, sorry.

Uh,

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: the
accessibility." Um, need to do it.

But yeah, we need to, as an industry,
make that a positive thing because it's

the only way to make it happen, I guess.

Brad: and, and frankly, like, what
I've seen to be the most successful,

I'm curious to get your take on it,
on it as well, there's something

quite damning about check boxes.

I get very leery of check boxes, and
accessibility has always been one of

those things where it's just like, yes,
there are these heuristics, yes, there

are these, like, very specific check
boxes that need to be checked, but

unfortunately, that ends up translating
into, " Here are these boxes that we

need to, to hit," versus something
that feels a lot healthier and just

more positive and is, is just, it's
just kinda weaving it just throughout.

It's just, just part of the language
and part of the, the ongoing

design and development process.

It's, it's just like, it's not a, a
separate thing, and certainly not just,

like, a check box, but rather just,
like, something that we understand to

be part, an inherent part of making
digital things, that it's just a quality

of it that we internalize and use.

And, like, the healthiest projects I've
worked on are the ones that, that just

have internalized that and, and, and
it feels like more of, like, a… just,

just an understood or a v- a value that's
lived versus this just fucking chore.

I don't know.

Hidde de Vries: Yeah.

I, I get the point.

I mean, I'm one of the editors
of WCAG 3, so technically I

am a, a checkbox producer.

Brad: You're the

Hidde de Vries: checkboxes.

Brad: checkbox guy.

Hidde de Vries: I

Brad: But they, no, no,
no, they, they need to be.

But I, I, I, yeah, I, th- they

Hidde de Vries: I

Brad: need to exist

Hidde de Vries: Yeah, I think
they need to exist, but the other

hand, like, it is not about-- it
shouldn't be about checking boxes.

It should be an internalized thing.

Um, but it's, it's really a bit of both.

Like, if you, your organization
says, "We've internalized it, and

we've done a great job," I can use my
checkboxes to see if it's true or not.

Like, I can, I can
double-check it with that.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Hidde de Vries: but they are, they
are basically like abstractions of,

like, actual accessibility Like, the
people making the checkboxes, it's all

based on research, and it's based on,

Brad: Yep.

Yeah, yeah.

Hidde de Vries: that are
helpful and stuff like that.

um, yeah, it becomes checkboxes
because, you know, regulation needs

to take it up, and, like, there's,

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: Uh, but it's,
it's really a bit of both.

Like, yeah, it's helpful to have
checkboxes, but in the end, like,

if you're in a team, probably not
the, the only thing you need to do.

Um, especially like understanding
how people use the web, I

think that's the main If you do

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: it's like you need to
understand not everyone uses a mouse.

Some people use a keyboard.

Like, if you have that basic
understanding, then the checkboxes will

come because you will, you will meet them.

but yeah, it's more about
how people use the web.

That's also how the W3C
about it, by the way.

Like, they have a page
that, explains that.

Um, and I've always found that
one of their most useful pages

where it just explains this is
how people use the web in general.

Like, these are some different ways.

Uh, and if you know about those, it's
harder to make things inaccessible

Brad: That's right.

Hidde de Vries: you need to,

Brad: Yep.

Yep.

Yeah.

don't get me wrong, like, the, the
check boxes are, are very necessary.

It's the, it's the, the stopping
there, and I think that you just did

a, a beautiful job at, like, kind of
the… There's, there's the framing,

there's the storytelling, and then
ultimately, like, the, the kind of more

just cultural transmission and, and

Hidde de Vries: Yeah

Brad: empathy and, and just, like,
a, a, a greater awareness that you're

able to just kind of bring to your
work that ends up making, surprise,

surprise, making the work a lot stronger.

And I, I think that that's, that's…
It's, you operate from just, like,

a healthier and more proactive place
rather than this, like, whole like,

"Oh, shit, we just made, like, a big
mess," and then, like, we gotta go in

and fix the check boxes after the fact.

Yeah.

Hidde de Vries: I do,

Brad: Yeah.

Hidde de Vries: accessibility audits
every now and then, and then I'll

have the chat box where I write
down failures, and it's like, this

fails, that fails, that's a failure.

Brad: Hmm?

Hidde de Vries: negative activity
in a way, and, and ideally you would

just take an organization along and be
like, "These are-- is how to do it."

Make it positive.

Like, even in, like, the process of
auditing, there's a lot of improvements

that people can make to making that
not about check boxes or failures, but

making it about, here's a code example.

Dump this in here because of this reason.

Uh, this is gonna make
it keyboard accessible.

It wasn't because of that
attribute missing or whatever.

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: yeah, that can also
be a big step in, like, positivity

and, and making things actionable to

Brad: I'm curious to get your take.

So it's like we're on, we're through
l- one lens of how AI is impacting user

experience, which is okay, we're, we're
creating this stuff, we're producing

code, and we could, you know, point
these things at our code to say, "Is

this accessible?" Or like, what are some,
you know, what are some things that we

can be doing to, to improve this stuff?

And, and that's one lens of it, and
then the user experience comes out

in the form of a thing that people
interact with, and we guide people

through flows and stuff like that.

But one of the interesting things
that's … I feel like hasn't gotten as

much sunlight is that, oh, well, the users
of our websites and apps and all of that

stuff also have these tools, and that
changes the game, especially, I think,

through the lens of, uh, accessibility.

But let, let… I'll paint a picture here.

I'm curious to get your, your, your
thoughts on it, because in two hours

or something, I created a, a Chrome
extension that's basically like a

supercharged version of like user style
sheets from back in the day, right?

So it's like, oh yeah, like any time
I'm visiting, you know, Amazon.com,

like I just want to hide literally every
part of the , the, the webpage that

isn't just the product image and the,
how much the thing costs and the basic

description of it, and stores that to
local storage and st- you know, there

it is, and then any time I go to that
webpage, I don't see any of the cruft.

If I go to another webpage, a- another
domain, I could change it to, you know,

neon green and if, if that's my, my
desire or, or bump up the font size.

And what I'm very fascinated about is
the, this new generation of accessibility

for people that tend to get the short end
of the stick in general because people

like us aren't, aren't considering them
as w- as well, but also tend to get

like flattened into, to buckets, right?

Which is like, oh, y- you know, you're
a wheelchair user, you're, you know,

blind person, and it's like obviously
all of these things are, are spectrums

and people's specific, uh, you know,
disabilities or, or operating, uh,

capacity or whatever, short-term,
long-term, everything in between, is

so hyper-personalized, So I'm curious,
like, what your thoughts are on that,

or, like, been going on there with
respect to, like, how does AI unlock

maybe a different type of accessibility
for people, or hopefully a better user

experience for people across the board?

Hidde de Vries: Yeah.

In general, I believe browsers a lot more
to fix accessibility on the browser level.

Like, we've been adding focus styles to
websites for years, but a browser could

just draw a focus ring on whatever has
focus on behalf of the user, right?

If they wanna have focus, that
should be something that-- That's

one of the checkboxes in WCAG
that we could throw away if

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: that functionality.

Um, I had a small, like, we
had a small group at W3C that

worked on this for a little bit.

Um, we, we stopped doing the work
for, for various reasons, but there

is a list that we can make of things
that browsers could allow for.

Also, like, killing elements, like
you were saying on, on Amazon.

Um, just like, I don't want that element.

Just I don't wanna see it, or I
want it to be bigger or smaller.

There are things, like without
AI even, that browsers could

do on behalf of the user.

Um, I think they should be doing
it 'cause they are user agents.

They should be agents for the user,
uh, and do on behalf of the user, do

whatever the web designer didn't want.

Like, the web designer wanted
huge fonts or, like, some

light colors on light colors.

The user might not want it, and
the agent can do that for them.

Um, so You know, bring the
user back into the user agent.

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: I think there's a lot
more customization that can happen.

Uh, I've been thinking about this in
terms of alternative text, for instance.

Uh, we all do our best to write down
an alternative for an image, uh,

the way that we intended the thing.

what I often find when I talk to
blind friends is that they may be

interested in very specific things
in the image that I didn't think of.

like if you're shopping for a dress,
and I'm giving this example 'cause I

heard Leonie Watson talk about this
a few weeks ago at a conference.

She was saying, "I'm shopping for a
dress. I want that dress to be black,

so I wanna check that it's black."
And she had a couple of other things

that I don't remember, but there
were some specifics that she wanted

to know about, uh, and she could ask
her AI if they were in that image.

Uh, and it was great.

Uh, and the original author of that
webpage could have never written

down those details specifically, um,
because maybe the next person will want

different things about a dress or find
different things important about it.

Um, so I think that sort of, like,
personalized alternative text is just

one example where some system that can
describe what's on an image is really

helpful, uh, and can be customized in
a way that would be impossible for any

human to, to write down, because it

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: much on, on the use case.

Uh, maybe you don't wanna know
about the color of the dress.

You wanna know about the material, or you
wanna know if it's suitable for evening or

whatever people wanna know about dresses.

I don't, I don't-- never buy dresses.

I don't know.

I always pick the wrong
ones for my daughters.

Uh,

Brad: But,

you're onto something there because
it, it's like there, there's fa-

there is fashion and there is a whole
language around fashion and dresses.

I- I don't, I don't know dresses very
much either, but I, I will say my,

my first job whenever I moved to New
York City was working for a fashion

e-commerce company, and we would sell
these, these multi-thousand dollar

dresses, like boutique dresses,
like d- you know, designer things.

And that, and that wa- it was fascinating
because it's like, "Who's gonna spend

$5,000 on a dress?" Turns out people
spend $5,000 on a dress on there.

And, but, but there's, there is so much,
like, specific language that goes into,

you know, a garment and, and that is
very, very difficult to, to, like, distill

into, like, a single aesthetic thing.

And I, I do think that we, this new
technology does unlock the ability

for these experiences to be a lot less
inert than they have been to date,

that for me is particularly exciting.

And that's all, of course, that the raw
ingredients, the, the, the default, the

standards, all of the, you know, tho-
those checkboxes, all of that stuff,

like, kind of needs to be there, and then
there's this, like, layer in front of

it that just, like, can supercharge that
accessibility and actually, like, take

it from, like, a, "Yes, you can survive
this experience," to, like, "Oh, this

is freaking lovely, and this is, like,
tuned for me, You know, my cousin's, uh,

quadriplegic and has, like, the nature of
her accident, she has, like, kind of, uh,

difficulty with, with one of her hands.

Like, like, she, she can use it, but
it's like the, the proximity of, say,

like, the, the primary call to action
button, which there is no standard

for, is, is, is hard to come by.

So it's like the, th- just to even think
about, yeah, whether that's additional

browser settings or whatever that says,
it's like, I want the primary call to

action button for these types of pages,
if I'm shopping or sort of something

like that, to, to show up in a place
that is comfortable for me, that is, that

is more reachable for me or so, so…

Like, that stuff is super cool.

Like, I think that that just feels
like, oh wow, that is like- Could

make a real material difference
in a lot of humans' lives.

Hidde de Vries: Just gonna
make sure people can do the

thing they, they wanna do.

this is also part of, uh, voice
control interface on, on the Mac.

You can have, like, a grid overlay and
say, like, it will put numbers on all

the elements, and you can just say, "I
wanna press element 15," where number

15 appears, like that sort of thing.

Uh, it's great.

Like, yeah, it also makes
people less dependent on how

an individual UI is designed.

Brad: Yeah.

Hidde de Vries: I

Brad: Yeah

Hidde de Vries: great that people
design websites, and all the

respect to the people that are
doing that work, like, like us.

Uh, but also they are lower
priority than the users who just

maybe wanna do their thing or make
it bigger or smaller or whatever.

so it's, yeah, it's gonna give people
more agency and, um, I think that's great.

Yeah.

Brad: Yeah.

That's, and again, it's, it's, it's the
complicated stuff around this is like

you could kind of like see all of this
promise and potential and very real

improvements in, in, in people's lives.

And then there's also that, that
balancing act with the, uh, you

know, our responsibility to make
sure that it's not just we're just

YOLOing it, us, us all into Armageddon

Hidde de Vries: Yeah, and that's the
thing, like, from an ethical point of

view, I think, like, if you're weighing
these different values, it's like if

someone needs this as an assistive
technology, they-- that's a different

thing than someone wants it because
they just wanna see what it looks

like if you put an elephant's head
on a tiger or whatever and, and make

an image generating based on that.

Uh, that's a real, like, tangential
difference to, uh, tangible difference.

Yeah.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and it's like, and it, I think,
uh, kind of bringing it all home to, to

just like people's… But, you know, we
are able to make our, make decisions, and

so it's, like, kind of making the right
decisions of, like, it's, like, kinda

using… For something that, that could be
just, like, a, a simple search or a query

or a little sort of script or writing two
lines of code or whatever it might be.

It's like, you know, may- maybe err on
that side and, and not just kind of throw

the helicopters at it, uh, by default.

I think that, I think that's,
like, really kinda pragmatic

stuff that we could be doing.

And to, to employ this technology
to sort of help, you know,

Hidde de Vries: Yeah

Brad: I think, kind of advance
the, the promise of, of the web.

I, I, I… Maybe that's, like, a good
kind of thing to point it at is, like,

it's like, okay, like, yeah, if we're
talking about pointing this thing at

something, let's make it, let's point
it in the direction of betterment.

And we've done… You and, and, and your
colleagues and everything have d- have

done, like, a really great job at defining
what that betterment is and what those

standards are and, like, what we're all
sort of, like, striving for, and I think

that that, that feels like a good thing.

A, a, a relatively good application
of this technology is like, "Hey, how

can we just make sure whatever we're
producing, with or without LLMs, is,

is going out the door and is, you
know, sturdy and resilient and gonna

last a long time and is accessible
for anyone who's, who's accessing it?"

the only last question, we started
our conversation talking about music.

uh, what is some music that you
want more people to know about?

Hidde de Vries: Yeah, this is such
a hard question because there's

so much great music out there.

something that I've enjoyed recently,
and this is Dutch, so it will be really

hard for anyone listening who doesn't
understand Dutch, is a group called

Iceland Uh, they are named after the
country, but it is a metaphor for the

Netherlands being a country that's too
cold towards, for instance, immigrants,

uh, making immigration too much of a
problem and, like, closing borders.

Uh, so they call the country IJsland,
um, and they make all sorts of

somewhat silly music, but also quite
serious about, you know, what is

AI doing to why capitalism is bad.

Uh, they call capitalism the C-word.

Uh, so yeah, lots of, lots
of fun, um, in that music.

It's kind of like punk hip hop.

I've enjoyed that.

Um, and, uh, if I can name two,
I also really like James Blake's

latest album called Trying Times,
which is about, like, of love and,

like, lots of, lots of good themes.

but also I think he's technically, like,
a great musician, uh, doing magic with

instruments that I don't understand.

You probably do 'cause
you're a musician too.

I don't know what he's doing with
his synthesizers, but, um, I think it

Brad: He, he is doing a lot of crazy
stuff right out of the gate, but I,

I think that the thing that impresses
me most about him is he's able to

really convey a mood better than nearly
anyone else that I've ever heard.

It's like, it's like, oh my
God, uh, you, you feel something

listen- listening to that.

But I'm sure Iceland makes you
feel something as well, and I,

I will give that a, a listen.

That sounds like some good, like,
good, like, social commentary

and a good, like, kind of bookend
for, for our conversation and our

responsibility as well, so that's great.

Fantastic.

the last thing is where can people,
follow along with, with you and your

work, and where are you hanging out?

Hidde de Vries: easiest is probably
hita.blog, which is my website.

Uh, I also am on various platforms
with HDV, uh, because my first and last

name are a bit tricky to pronounce,
so I just stick with the initials.

HDV is where I'm at most of the time

Brad: Beautiful.

Beautiful.

Well, thanks so much for taking, uh,
taking the time to chat, and, uh,

go enjoy the rest of your, uh, your
evening over there, I suppose, right?

Hidde de Vries: Have a great
rest of your day, Brad.

Brad: All right.

Take care, man.

See ya