Unlocking Creativity and Positivity with Jessica Hische

Welcome to Wake Up Excited.

In this episode I talk
with Jessica Hische.

Jessica is a creative powerhouse.

She's created an illustrated children's
books, designed postage stamps,

done lettering for West Anderson
movies, improved countless logos,

and her new venture is invoicing
and payment software for creative

professionals called Studio Works.

Jessica and I go way back and
from the moment I met her, I

knew we were kindred spirits.

She is energetic and multidisciplinary
excitable, and is one of the few people

that I really feel shares my weird
blend of both sincerity and goofiness.

So, uh, I loved our conversation.

We discussed a lot of things.

We talked about using positivity
and enthusiasm to fight all the

negativity engulfing our world.

We talked about ADHD and mental health.

We talked about balancing our
personal responsibilities with our

responsibilities to the world at large.

We talked about engaging with and
improving your local community.

We talked about creativity,
breadth, and depth and creativity

over time, and a whole lot more.

Before we get into our conversation,
I wanted to say that Wake Up

Excited is a real labor of love
and is totally self-funded.

So if you enjoy these conversations
and you want to support the

show, support me and my work.

I'd love it if you checked out our
online courses bradfrost.com/courses.

We have courses on design tokens, atomic
design with a whole bunch more on the way.

And we're really committed to helping
the world's designers and developers

and anyone making websites and
apps really level up their skills.

So I'd love it if you checked out
our courses at bradfrost.com/courses.

Now, without further ado, here's my
conversation with Jessica Hische.

Brad: Jessica.

Hi.

Jessica Hische: How's it going?

Brad: to converse?

Jessica Hische: I am ready to converse.

Brad: what are you excited about?

What are, what has you waking up excited?

What'd you wake up excited
this morning about?

Jessica Hische: Well, a couple of things.

I went skiing this
weekend and it was epic.

And now I am really excited to be a skier.

Um, I skied growing up and I haven't
really had a chance to go very much

'cause I have three children and they have
varying degrees of enthusiasm for sport.

Uh, but they all, all three of 'em
did all day lessons and they all

hung out and me and Russ got to ski
all day for two whole days in a row.

And I was feeling super cool about
it and it made me wanna go out

and I'm gonna buy myself skis.

I'm a grownup.

I don't change sizes
now so I can own skis.

And I bought season passes for next year.

'cause they're super cheap if
you buy them the year before.

And yeah, so that's one thing that's my
li that's my life thing I'm excited about.

my work thing I'm excited about is, um.

I've been building this thing called
Studio Works with my friend Chris Shiflet.

And, uh, Sean and Nick are
two super bro developer folks.

And, uh, it's been epic and really fun
to work on and I feel like my brain

is now, I'm like, you know that meme
where it's like the like shriveled

head guy and then it's bigger and
then it's like self-actualization guy.

I feel like that's.

Me, uh, and uh, and then I launched
this week a, online community

for it that I didn't tell anyone
about before I launched it.

So it was like a surprise.

And that's been super fun.

And there's already like three,
like almost 400 people in it and

it's been really active and we're
doing like Zoom hangs and people are

sharing resources and posting events
and stuff and it's really cool.

I'm just really happy.

So I just wanna get a bunch of
students in there so I can just be

everybody's big sister and just be
answering all their little questions

Brad: Beautiful.

You figured it out.

Jessica Hische: I know, everyone's
like, what do you do to mentor people?

And my answer is always very wishy-washy
and being like, well, I talk at

conferences and I answer people's emails.

And so, uh, I feel like now I can
have a bit more of a direct line

towards helping people, which is nice.

I am also excited to just make a very
casual, fun place to hang out on the

internet so that it doesn't have to
be in the places where everyone feels

they have to be in performative mode.

cause there's not really
good casual hangs.

And you know, even on all the fun,
uh, texty places like Blue Sky and

all that, everyone's like kind of
bummed out and wants to talk about

being bummed out and wants to talk
about being worried about stuff.

And I just wanna hang out and not
be bummed out for a little while.

That's my goal.

Brad: if I were to run my own
conversations through an AI modeler and

to make it sound like Jessica Hische I
would say the exact same thing as you.

There's a reason why I wanted you to
come on this show, because I think

we're wired very, very, very similarly.

I think that that, uh, our, our
conversations that have now spanned.

Over, I think a decade or no, like

Jessica Hische: Well, probably close.

Probably close to two decades.

Yeah.

Brad: what's wild is
what you just described.

I wrestle with this and I'm curious to
get your take on it because I wrestle

with it because on one hand everything
you just described sounds almost

like charmingly, simple and naive.

But I think we understand
that there is a deep, level of

profundity underneath all of that,

Jessica Hische: my big like ethos of
the times and has been, you know, since

2016 basically is we all, especially
us the like internet generation.

I got really excited about always
be thinking on like a global

scale, like global community,
global reach, global everything.

But, and then when you think about
problems in the world, you're

always thinking like, we need to
attack it from like the top down.

And then that just like is so intimidating
and doesn't really work and mostly just

makes people crumble and feel upset
and everybody forgets that actually

just like the small positive things
that you can do, including just like

protecting your own mental health and
helping other people protect theirs.

That ends up making an actual
difference in the world because

people that are crushed by.

Depressing things or full of anxiety
about the estate of everything.

What they don't do is take
any action to make it better.

They just crawl into a hole and feel bad.

And that's, I mean, that's kind of the
default way to do it, but if you feel

like resort like full of resources
and you feel capable, you're much

more likely to go, oh man, you know,
like, I'm done with my work right now.

What can I do to like do a helpful
thing or make a thing that like impacts

other people or donate to a thing or
volunteer for a thing or whatever.

Like you need to feel whole
in order to do those things.

And so I think it's actually just
really important to make people focus

on positive local community stuff
instead of just spending all of their

time looking at the big picture doom
and gloom, because there's always big

picture doom and gloom to look at.

Brad: Yeah.

And, and that big picture, doom and
gloom is a relatively new phenomenon.

Like the fact that in between all of
our cat memes are slotted in pictures

of a children's hospital getting
bombed and then here's another cat

meme, like, like it's messed up.

It's like super messed up.

So we have it, it's kind of no wonder
why we are so scrambled up and, and

just absolutely ripped apart mentally,
and that, that that guilt, that that

overwhelming crushing guilt that
just is nothing but shed energy.

It just vibrates out.

It just burns off into the ether.

That's like, that's how I view it.

It's just this, this anxious, vibrating
energy that doesn't go anywhere.

It doesn't do anything.

It's just, it's

Jessica Hische: Totally.

Yeah.

Brad: It's

Jessica Hische: I mean, I think we
all, we all like know people and

like family members that like watch
too much news and they like see it

as a positive to be so informed.

But to me it's like if that
information is not translating

to action, like what is it doing?

You know, like if all you're doing
is absorbing all the ills of the

world and it's not translating
to action, you're basically just

like punishing yourself, you know?

So it's almost like you have to
control what you let in so that you

can actually still maintain the ability
to do something about it, you know?

I was at an event recently called
um, Paradiso, which is put on

by one of the founders of Off.

Stefan Sagmeister gave a talk there, and
I've seen him talk a million, billion

times, but it was a talk about, a
recent, like project sabbatical project

that he did called now is better.

and he basically just because so many
people around him were talking about

how we're living in terrible times
and all these terrible things were

happening, he decided to sort of do a
research project about like, what is

terrible, like, like, you know, like.

Let's look at the data
of like all of the stuff.

And it basically is just like, now
is the best possible time to exist.

And the thing that was really
interesting about it is he was on

like a, uh, a podcast or like the news
interview or something and they were

like, yeah, but how do you, people
in Ukraine probably feel about that?

And he was like, yeah, well what if
you're being like actively bombed?

Obviously, like it's hard to
say like, now's the best time.

But what ended up happening is
a bunch of folks in the Ukraine

reached out to him and asked him
to like put on a show of this work.

And he said of all of the places
that the show ended up being, the

best response was in the Ukraine.

'cause they just like needed
hope and positivity so much.

And so, I mean that's just like amazing.

Like, I mean, it's one data
point, but it's like really good

proof that like when you're.

You're the most receptive to like
hope when you're going through

tough stuff, you know, like that's
when you really reach for it.

That's why people get religious when
they get cancer and all kinds of stuff.

You're like reaching out for like, what
is the positive I can find in this?

Brad: and, and we need to be of the
positive of the other end of the spectrum.

I feel like there's just
been this overwhelming.

Focus the negative and even in the, the
resistance to one side of the negative,

it's all, it continues to be negative.

and there's this, we need to be
reminded of like fun and the joy and

the, the great things in life and,
and laughter and, and all of, and

music and, and all of these things.

And deprive ourselves or we're like, I,
I feel like the overwhelming majority

of people are like waiting for moment
of calm to, to be able to claim

that or to be able to pursue that.

And it's like it ain't
coming like you, it like,

Jessica Hische: Yeah.

Brad: say that there aren't mac macro
level like ebbs and flows to things, but

like you have to create that for yourself.

No one else is going to give
you permission to do that.

And I feel like people like, like us.

that is our kind of like mission or duty
is to kind of help remind people of that.

I don't know if

Jessica Hische: Yeah.

Brad: same, but

Jessica Hische: Oh, totally.

there's two things.

One, I've been like workshopping
the right way to say this quote, it

stems from that thing of Not being a
person who's capable of actually being

like an on the ground world saver.

You know what I mean?

Like, I have three little kids.

I can't go to the protests and I
can't be like, you know, doing a

lot of really active stuff, and I'm
also like, des design feels like a

selfish discipline where you're just
like helping people sell things.

You know?

Like it's all, it's all that.

but the, the thing that I, that I return
to, which is very similar to what you're

talking about, is, and this is the kind
of quote that I'm working on, uh, which

is that some people are born to save
the world and some people are born to

show us why the world is worth saving.

And so it's like the same thing of like,
you need to see the beauty in the world

in order to have the, like, fortitude to
save it and, and the desire to save it.

'cause why would you
wanna save a shitty place?

You know, like you have to believe
this is a good place to save it.

Brad: there's So, I, I love that.

I love that.

You good, good work shopping
there that, no, no notes.

Jessica Hische: There's also, you
know, I, this is a weird thing,

but I have a strange appreciation
for social media algorithms now.

you know, like everybody hates the
algorithm, and the algorithm destroys

our lives and blah, blah, blah, blah.

But for me,

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Jessica Hische: thing that was a
weird side effect of the algorithm is

that the algorithm favors negativity.

Right.

if you post about negative stuff, it's
much more likely to pop to the top

of the charts just because it's like
people wanna know about negative stuff.

We just have this like innate thing
of like disaster looking and whatever.

And what happened is in early internet,
everyone saw everything that you said.

So if you posted 10 things and
eight of them were positive and two

of them were negative, people got
a really good understanding about

what your life was like, right?

But now if you post those same 10
things, the likelihood of people

seeing the positive stuff is way less.

So they're much more likely to see
the negative stuff and then get a

false idea of what your reality is.

So it actually changes the way that you.

Look at the things that you share
because you're like, oh, if I share

these negative things too often or
you know, like I won't say at all.

'cause I think it's important to
share some, but it actually will

end up not only coloring your view
of your own life, but also coloring

other people's view of your life.

And I think that it sort of forces
you into this thing of looking at all

the positives and posting those, but
not necessarily in like a, a way that

needs to be about projecting a falsity.

You know, it's actually about
projecting what is the truth.

'cause the truth is actually that you
had an overwhelming positive amount

of stuff to say, and the negative
stuff was a small portion of that.

And so it makes you actually
notice that a lot more.

Brad: you're describing an active
resistance to the affordances

of these algorithms, right?

You, you are like, you are like, I will
show them, and, and you're using it as

a, as a lens to be more conscious of
your actions rather than just falling

prey to the affordances of those things,
which is just, yeah, the negativity,

snowball, and like, yeah, we're all
gonna dog pile on to, to get out there

and throw an overwhelmingly unabashed,
enthusiastic, fun, funny thing that's a

freaking act of resistance right there.

Jessica Hische: I feel when
you say like, enthusiasm too.

I love that word.

Um, because one of the things that
has been really interesting about

becoming a grownup in the world is just.

The level of fucks you give dropping off.

And then you also just realize that
things that you felt like allergic to

as a young person when you were like
trying to like you were like really in

control, like trying to control your
cool, you're like, I need to project

only this certain thing, whatever.

It just all goes away and, or at least it
does for the few of us that have reached

that top of the pyramid feeling great.

Um, but like there were so many things.

That I would've seen as like dorky
or cringe or whatever, that now I'm

like, anytime that I get like a cringe
reaction in my body, it feels like a

moment where I have to do like personal
work to like work through the cringe.

Instead of that, it's about like being
anti, the other thing, it's actually

like I'm grateful for this, for pointing
out this cringe reaction that I now

have to like work through and break up
because it's bad to have that reaction.

And so when I see people in the world that
have like zero, like cringe reaction, I'm

just like, these are the ascendant humans.

Like these are the ones that
have made it to the top.

Yeah.

Brad: yes, yes.

That, that like.

The, the utmost sincerity.

Oh my God, you, you love this.

This movie that I think is this
over the top, just explosion

fest, big budget, whatever.

But like, you, you love that.

And like, I love that.

You love that like, like that,
that is making you happy.

And like, I don't give a shit
about the nature of can I, can

I, you're like the perfect person
since we're workshopping things.

and it is exactly what you're describing.

I have this idea for a big
art installation in fact,

one second I got props.

this, I went to Goodwill
Live, laugh, love, give, let

Jessica Hische: I love it.

Brad: be done in love.

Right?

Like, as letter art person,
whatever, and, but it's, it's

exactly that level of cringe, We, we
describe that shit as basic, right?

Live, laugh, love.

Ha ha.

It's a meme, it's a joke.

like what I've done back to like, those,
those feelings of like, ah, yeah, Let's

all like, look at this stuff and laugh
and then like, you pick at that and it's

like, what does this actually say here?

It's like, laugh, love, my God.

That's like some of the most profound
shit that like, it's, it's the truth.

It's right in front of

Jessica Hische: Yeah.

Brad: Like it

Jessica Hische: I.

Brad: is.

So, so what I wanna do is I wanna do
a go, go to all these Goodwills and

like, like round up all of the live
laugh, love stuff, and I want to do

just like a giant fucking wall of it and

Jessica Hische: I love it.

Brad: do some cool stuff,
like gutsy it up a little bit.

But it's just like, and that's the title
of the piece is with utmost Sincerity.

And it's just like, recontextualizing,
this stuff that like fell in.

Who, where did that go?

Like, jaded, cynical kind of horse.

Shitty.

Like, like let's, let's actually
let people like things like,

let's actually celebrate that.

Like, like, uh, that's I think one of
the, the, the most unfortunate side

effects of like the first generation
of like social media is that there

ended up being this like cynicism
that took root, that it's like, you

can't actually like something, or we
can't, like, we gotta find the angle.

Like, let me, I don't
like this being up here.

I gotta take it down a notch or two.

It's like, let's like who, who
says, you know, like, when did

Jessica Hische: Yeah.

Brad: and how did we all agree to that?

Jessica Hische: one of the things that
I feel like I am hopeful for with the

younger generations that I feel like I've
seen a bit of, but I don't know if it's

like a regional thing, which is that it
doesn't seem cool to be mean anymore.

when you meet kids that are like
middle schoolers or in high school or

whatever, like I feel like I haven't
seen a lot of like, oh yeah, they're

the cool kid because they're mean.

Like, if someone's mean, everyone
kind of has like a, that person

must be going through some
stuff, you know, like whatever.

And I love this, and I hope that that's
not just like a Bay Area regional thing,

because obviously like I'm in a bubble.

And so it's a different,
different situation here, but.

I don't know, like it was so cool
to be mean when we were teenagers

and in our twenties and like the
mean kids always seemed to like

rise to the top of the pile.

And if it's not cool to be
mean anymore, that'd be great.

That'd be so great for everyone.

Brad: It would be interesting.

Like I, I, I genuinely don't know.

I I, I'm in my own little cul-de-sac
bubble here outside of Pittsburgh when

all of the teenagers on our little street
are like the sweetest, kindest people.

And I have no idea if like that's
an anomaly or if that's, yeah.

Is that the exception
or, or is that the role?

but I, but I would have to think
there is some semblance of, let's

say like mental health being more of
like a front and center thing that's

like a, like that's a live thing.

There's like, I think a lot more
of like the psychology well,

positive psychology, but just an
understanding of psychology in general.

Like it's no longer, like the first like
hundred years of, of psychology was just

all like weird Freud stuff and like all
this like very like pathological stuff.

And I feel like we are now living in a
moment where kids are growing up with

like some, like, my daughter comes
home from school, I'm sure your kids

are the same way, where it's like,
there's some stuff that's just like

really good emotional intelligence
stuff and just like good, like

holistic, like wellbeing kind of stuff.

And my

Jessica Hische: Yeah.

Brad: that that taught and there's,
there's more of an awareness around it.

And there's, there also seems to be a bit
more of like a counter, momentum swing

away from like helicopter parenting a
little bit and like a, a real reckoning

with like, we kind of need kids to.

You know, develop and, and, and
grow and, and learn how to be

resilient on their own rather than
us trying to design that for them.

Um, so I don't know.

I maybe we're just optimistic
and maybe like most

Jessica Hische: Yeah.

Brad: are like, no,
everybody's still shitty.

Jessica Hische: Yeah.

They're like, no, the teenagers
destroy everything and La

la, which is also true, so

Brad: guess you'll find out,
you'll, you'll find out soon enough.

I'll find out soon enough
and we'll report back.

what's like the biggest thing that
your kids have, like, taught you about

the emotional landscape or the, the,
the spiritual realm or like what?

Like, because the lens
by which kids exist.

Jessica Hische: Mm-hmm.

Brad: talking about with just
like enthusiasm and positivity

and boundlessness, and almost
like a kind of a joyful naivety.

you're confronted with that every
day, I, I say confronted, but whenever

you're exposed to that every day,
that radically has changed me.

I don't, I don't know.

Like what, what sort of lessons
you've learned from, from your kids.

Jessica Hische: I've got some
really different personalities in

my household, so I. My youngest is
like, I love everything and everyone,

I'm always happy about everything.

I just, I'm just here to party.

Like, that's his whole vibe.

the thing that I learned through
him, which I already know in myself

'cause I am also this person, is
that just like showing up in the

world with a smile on your face
makes the world better for everyone.

It makes your, your life better and
it makes everyone else's life better.

Because my oldest, who is not that, she
definitely is much more introverted.

She like straight up, like
will just be unresponsive to

adults that are talking to her.

So like if someone gives her a compliment
or something, she just kind of stone

faces them and I'll like talk to her
about it afterwards and be like, Hey,

you know, like it's okay for you to like
give a response back or like show some

emotion in your face, like when people
say a nice thing to you or whatever.

And then she was just like,
what if I don't want to.

And I was like, it's totally fine.

You know, like, that's on you.

Uh, but she'll also like, we'll go
to a, we went to like a craft fair or

whatever, and George, who's five will
like walk up to some lady their booth and

be like, I love the earrings you make.

These are the most beautiful
bracelets I've ever seen.

You know, like, and just be
like really engaging with her.

And then she's just like,
take them, take them all.

Like, she just like gives him stuff.

And then Ramona will walk away
and be like, be like, how come

I didn't get any free stuff?

And people always give George free stuff.

And I was like, 'cause George looks
at people and makes them feel good.

Like, if you walk out to
people and make them feel nice,

they wanna give you things.

So like, even if that's not a
natural thing that you wanna do,

know that that is a useful tool
that you can have with other people.

And so that's been really
interesting to sort of see that

play out in like real ways.

And then, um, my middle, is
also a very different person.

Like he's also like a big goofball
and a big clown or whatever,

but he's also crazy sensitive.

So he's both that like introverted
sensitive kid, but also like a loud

performer, like always the jokester,
like trying to like, you know,

be the, the, the show iest one.

And it's just been really interesting
to see both my and Russ's personality

traits come out in different ways in them.

And then also basically both of us being
like, well, I guess literally everyone

in the family has a DHD and just has
a different flavor of it because we're

just seeing like, you see what the kids
are doing and what they're going through

and being like, oh, that's that you have
that version, and I have this version,

and that's why that one does that.

And so we're just, it's very, like, the
thing that's really interesting is that

we feel like such a unit, like, you know,
like I feel like any, we just like hang

out and everybody gets along really well.

And I think it's because we're all like.

Just neurodivergent in our own ways and
so we all really get each other, you know?

And, uh, that's been really interesting
to just like be in a household full

of people that kind of all have
a similar, you know, affectation.

So

Brad: I mean, that's be I, and
that's beautiful and like you have

your flavor of that and it's like
everyone has their flavor of that.

Even if it's like, like some people
I know, like entire families of

curmudgeons and it's like they're yeah.

Happily curmudgeony together.

And, there's something there where
it's like you can just have that

unspoken, you all know you're, you're
built the same, you're wired the

same, or you have your own, you know,
equilibrium, your own like kind of

family organism kind of vibe, and you're
just able to enjoy it, lean into it.

I think that's beautiful.

That's amazing.

So yeah, you, you have like a
real stark contrast between.

Like unbounded enthusiasm
and exuberance with this.

Like,

Jessica Hische: Gloomy
teenager, basically.

Yeah.

Brad: yeah.

Wait till

Jessica Hische: We will see though,
like, I think, I think the main, the

main thing that's good though is that
she was born in this time to these

parents because we're, I think she's also
just way low on the dopamine scale and

we're just gonna try to level her out.

And so we're in the process of doing
that because it's very clear that like

all the, like she's just not happy
because she just doesn't have enough

happy juice going on and just wants
to eat candy all the time and doesn't

sleep very well and is moody blues and
I just don't want her to be moody blues.

Brad: I love how you frame that,
because we've used like, pretty

much the exact same thing.

It's like, like, Melissa's inner master's
program to become a therapist, an arts

therapist, and like having been through
what we've been through, we have like

this really, you know, acute sense of,
of mental health and all of that stuff.

And so when we noticed those things
that we're like, oh yeah, monitor it

for now, but like, eventually that's
probably going to become a thing.

But at, but at the same time it's okay.

It's just, you know, it's, it's
genes and, and it's wiring, but

it's like you could sort it out.

And the fact that there's this,
like you said, like born at this

time to these people is such a gift.

And we, we talk about it all the
time that it's like we know, not to

just be like, what's wrong with you?

Just, you know, sit down and shut
up or, you know, like, don't be

Jessica Hische: Yeah,

Brad: crying.

Like it's no, like we, we know that
there's like a lot going on and,

and, and that there are ways of, of
being able to help and, and support

Jessica Hische: Also.

Brad: isn't,

Jessica Hische: Yeah, and also too,

Brad: lifelong

Jessica Hische: I, yeah, well, I feel
like too, like, like medication was

viewed so differently in the nineties
and 2000 and s than it is now.

And I, it's sort of, I can compare it to
like, trying to do an unmedicated birth,

you know, like where you don't have a, um.

You know, you don't do
the epidural or whatever.

Like, uh, a friend, I tried to to go
about it that way with my first one

and it just like went, it was terrible.

And I had, I just had to lean in
and a friend of mine was like,

let me just put it this way.

No one ever has a second
baby without an epidural.

They might do it the first time
and then the second time they're

like, Nope, let's just go for it.

And I think there's this like thing where
we feel like we have to try the absolute

hardest way to do something first,
because we see the medication as a cop

out when really it's like all of those
hard things don't actually get you to,

it's like a constant maintenance cycle.

You know, like my mom also had like mental
health stuff when I was growing up and

has dealt with like, she has very severe A
DHD clearly, but she's undiagnosed and um,

had a bunch of depression and all kinds
of things and she was like, yeah, the

only thing that worked for me was like.

Intensely exercising for
two to four hours per day.

And I was like, who can do that?

You know, like, like, you know, like
there are things you can do to like

solve the problem, like mostly where
you can get yourself like 70 to 80%

there, but it involves like gargantuan
lifestyle changes that don't necessarily

mesh with modern life or having a
job or having kids and all that.

And so you do what you can to like
mitigate things, but also like, I feel

like people just cut themselves off
from the ability to actually like solve

these problems in a much more like easy
way by just like trying out rebalancing

your brain chemicals, you know?

Because I think there's just this whole
thing of like, yeah, I mean, I thought

for sure it was gonna totally, I.

Change who I like, change
my personality or something.

And I just feel like, oh my God,
look, I am like back to being my best

self that I was like before I started
having crazy hormone problems or uh, or

like my best self when I wasn't being
triggered by anxiety and was getting

great sleep and was doing whatever.

I'm not getting great sleep, but my brain
is like in the same place as if I am.

But yeah.

Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's, you, you are healthier.

It's like, it, it is, the, the analogy
I use is it's eyeglasses, right?

And, and coming, coming back to the
exercising two to four hours, it's like,

yeah, well, I might not need glasses if I
just redesign my entire life to, to make

it so that I could just kind of see things
if I just sort of stand so far away.

And if I,

Jessica Hische: And squint
a certain way and yeah.

Brad: way and like, like.

And, and, and put this on my car in a
big magnifying glass on my, like, it's

like, or just get some eyeglasses but
it's like there's an uneven understanding

and appreciation for what this class
of Dr It's, it's very misunderstood.

It's very stigmatized still, or whatever.

The stigma part, I don't understand.

The misunderstood part is fully
understandable, because even the

people that make this stuff, they're
like, how do, how do SSRIs work?

They're like,

Jessica Hische: Yeah.

I dunno.

Brad: okay.

Jessica Hische: happens.

Brad: they're

Jessica Hische: Yeah.

Brad: we have our theories.

Like we, you know, we, we think it's this.

So it's like, I, I understand maybe like
a lack of understanding, but the, but

the, the, the more like stigma around
it, it does feel, it feels generational.

It feels.

It there, there's a lot wrapped up in
it, but at the same time, I'm hopeful

back to like the, the younger kids,
I think that it's, it's not just

like slamming Ritalin in their mouth
anymore, you know, just as a, as a,

you know, settle down kind of thing.

It's a, it seems like more deliberate
and, and designed and whatever, but

Jessica Hische: I'm slamming
Ritalin and it's great.

And so like the main thing being, uh,
I didn't understand How, like, you

know, and I, I, it feels weird to like
go and get my medicine now because

it is, it's a controlled substance
and it's a big fucking pain in the

butt to get my prescription filled.

Like every time I go to the pharmacy,

Brad: part.

Jessica Hische: I hate it.

I have to call in every month and
there's always shortages, but I can't

ask the pharmacy if they have it
'cause they're not allowed to tell me.

So sometimes I have to call, like my
doctor has to send in prescriptions

to like eight different pharmacies
until I find one that has it.

But it even feels like, then, like,
I'm like, do you know what this does?

Like it, all that it does is
make me not a hummingbird.

Like that's all that it does.

Like I, if I feel like I'm in a yoga class
all day when I'm on it and when I'm not

on it, I'm like, Ooh, what about that?

Ooh, what about that?

No, what we should do, we should do that.

Oh, we should do that.

And it just like non-sequitur
jump, jump junk I, I get that.

If you're not like us, uh, or me,
then it makes you psychotically wired.

But like, I get way crazier
of a wiry effect from caffeine

than I do from Ritalin.

Ritalin does not make me wired at all.

I don't get wired, but like,
if I have two cups of coffee,

I'm like, like crazy buzzy.

Brad: It's so weird how it
hits everybody differently too.

And my doctor was like, she's like this,
uh, this, because I'm on Adderall xr.

And she's like, she's like, and we
recently are, we're playing around with

putting like a second dose in uh, this
might keep you up all night, or you might

sleep better than you've ever seen before.

Or maybe it has no change.

And it is just like,
okay, sure, that's fine.

But I like, I like what you're saying
that there is a, there, there's

like a clarity in your tendencies.

I 'cause like, it's not
like a diminishment.

Of,

Jessica Hische: Mm.

Brad: skills.

And, and I wanna kind of pick at that
too, because like it's been so fun

just kinda watching you from afar.

'cause like we, we kind of like year
that was, like, let's say like late

2010, let's call it, I don't know.

we're there, we're kind
of at like the same spot.

We're both like, you know,
go, you know, and, and, and

Jessica Hische: Making stuff.

Let's do stuff.

Yeah.

Brad: things.

Yeah, yeah.

But, but like that, making
stuff and making varied things

in different kinds of things.

Right.

And this is like an, it's an interesting
thing that I'm sure you've heard about,

but curious to get your take on it as
someone who has really benefited from

hummingbird approach to things is a gift.

Right?

It's like, it's a gift so long
as it doesn't get in the way.

And that's what the medicine, in my view,
like for, for me personally, the medicine

keeps the hummingbird moving towards
actual feeders have actual nutrients

in it versus just like flitting around
going here, there, and everywhere.

It's like it's a focusing effect,
but it doesn't diminish the spirit.

Jessica Hische: Yeah.

To me, um, I, no, I feel the same way.

I think the one thing is.

In losing the hummingbird brain, I
do lose a bit of the like, like this,

this, this, this, this, this, this.

If I'm like, on a real tear, like every
now and then, I would get, basically

get in like a manic creative tear where
I could just like, have a billion ideas

flying at me and, and a lot of them
were like worth pursuing or they were

all contained within the same thing.

But that happens so rarely that it's
not worth living my life for that.

You know what I mean?

Like when in the, in the prior days I
was, when I could be in control of my

own time, I would just like hop from
project, project, project, project to

like make, keep the, um, enthusiasm going.

And so like the whole procrast
working thing was basically just

a big A DHD coping mechanism.

Um, but now that I'm a parent and my,
and my work days are more contained

and I, and it's a little unpredictable
about whether or not I can go into

that hyperfocus mode or not, I need to
make sure that when I'm at my office

that I'm not being diverted because
the diversions aren't helpful anymore.

Like, those are really helpful
when you're working like 14 hours

a day and you can just like divert
and then divert and then divert.

But when you're only working for like
six to nine hours a day, then the,

the diversions are like an absolute
wrench thrown into the whole thing.

And so.

Yeah.

I mean, and also too, like the, the other
thing that I found is like, is similar to

the four hours of exercise thing, like.

My thing is I am so much less anxious if I
can just like be in perpetual motion, like

working on stuff, you know, like that.

I always have something to do.

You know, I'm a very busy person.

I just have to like keep busy, keep
busy, keep moving forward like a shark,

you know, like just have to keep moving.

Otherwise, I feel like I'm gonna die.

And when I don't have the
capacity to do that all the time,

my anxiety builds up and so.

What, and that's because all that
energy that I would've been spending

on all of those outlets is building
up and doesn't have a place to go.

And so the taking a stimulant, like
taking the Ritalin, what it does is it

dissipates that energy that's built up.

And so I think like.

If I could live, like there's probably
a world in which I'm no longer on

stimulants when I'm not so on top of
the kids or traveling or like whatever.

Like if I can just do what I want all the
time, I probably don't need it as much.

But I feel like now what it really does is
just help that energy disperse so that I,

that doesn't turn into horrible anxiety.

'cause like that's what
it feels like to me.

And a friend of mine was like, 'cause
I was kind of back and forth about

whether or not I should try stimulants
and she was like, dude, don't, don't

sleep on how much it can impact anxiety.

Like if you're like an an anxious person.

It had the biggest impact for me
in terms of anxiety more so than

taking S-S-R-I-S-N-R-I and I, and
I found that to be really true.

Like, you know, like the, I
definitely feel like the SNRI.

What that does is kind of like, not
have me in these weird, like false

reality shifts where I like have a
false belief about what's going on.

Because like every now and then you
kind of like have that sort of like,

wait, what is, what was that about?

You know, like the, those kind
of feelings and I, and those

just don't happen anymore.

And I think it's because I'm like way
more leveled out because of the SNRI.

But in terms of just that like low hum
of anxiety that kind of builds and builds

and builds, the, the stimulants are what?

Knock that out.

Like if I, if I'm feeling kind of
like ugh in the afternoon and I

take a little boost of the Ritalin,
I'm just like, ah, now I feel good.

Now I can do stuff.

Yeah.

Brad: Yeah.

No, that's, that's wild.

That's a, that, that was very,
that was very descriptive and

like I, I was following along.

It's like that articulation of your
inner energy levels, it's like, and

again, like every body is different
and I think that that's always like

something that's like worth pointing out.

And that's yet another thing that I
get frustrated with when it comes to

people talking about mental health is
that they're like, Hey, I tried that.

Or even like therapy and stuff.

They're like, yeah, I tried that and.

Didn't work.

Uh, and it's like, well, on.

Like, it's like this,
this binary kind of thing.

It's like, it's like you,

Jessica Hische: Yeah.

Brad: have to find the right, the
equilibrium with, with anything, right?

Like it's, it's all about sort of
balances and iterating over things in

order to get to a place where you're
like feeling like your optimal self

and you owe that to yourself, right?

Like, I, I, again, like, I feel like
a lot of the conversations that I have

with people that are or pushing back on
that are like, they're like, no, but I

like wanna stay in that like, low hum
anxiety state, or I wanna feel like that

energy's building up with nowhere to go.

And you're like, but do you
like, it's, it's like, what,

Jessica Hische: Well, you know, it
depends if it, if the way that it works

for them is that they're baking themself
a coiled spring, and then they have

a place to release that coil, great.

Then yeah, I mean that's when it does
feel like a superpower because it's

like that energy builds up and then
you just constantly are outputting it.

But once you get older and you don't have
the capacity to do that as much anymore.

Yeah.

I mean it's like a different thing.

And with therapy it's also like,
like therapy as an adult is so

hard because our brains are like
rigid stone structures, right?

We've like built these pathways
over and over and over again.

We've walked the same roots over and over
again in terms of our thought patterns.

So trying to like unmake those
walkways is so fucking hard.

It's like, it's like you're in, it's
like you're on a trail in the woods and

there's a trail that has been walked
for centuries and you're now starting

to walk down a slightly different trail
that has not been walked for centuries.

And of course, everything wants
to divert down the centuries

long path for a very long time.

And it just takes so much
time to build that new path.

And that's why like the whole, uh,
psychedelic assisted stuff is really cool

because it does allow you to like make
those deep new pathways much quicker.

yeah, I mean like, I loved
therapy, but it took four years

to like unmake some bad mental

pathways of behaviors.

Like it was the slowest, most
arduous, most not noticeable

thing in the whole world.

And it worked.

And it's like, because I did it, it's
gonna stick 'cause I did the hard thing.

And the, and the pathways are there
versus trying to like race to a good

answer and then it can just bounce
right back to the, to the old ways.

But it's, I mean, who can commit to that?

It was like $175 a week for four years.

That's like, you know, it's
like five or six grand a year.

You know, like it's not, nothing.

Like not everybody can do that,

Brad: and, and again and there,
and there's very uneven results.

And it's, it's funny you brought
up the psychedelic speak, whatever

you're talking about, the two to four
hours of exercise the same thing.

It's like that's, that's immediately
where my head went is it's like, oh

yeah, you could do years of talk therapy
or going to meditate these intensive

multi-day meditation retreats and spend
a year long, like years long practice.

It's like, or this way that hook will help
you jump those neural canyons a lot fast.

Jessica Hische: I wish I

could have stuck doing more psychedelics
because I did see this like outrageous

benefit when I first started doing it.

It's like I was so flat, like not
like depressed, but just kind of like.

Everything just felt like a slog.

You know?

Like thi like just everything, you know?

I was just like, Ugh.

You know, like the kids ask you to
play outside and you're like, Ugh.

Like the first reaction is, no thank you.

I just wanna sit here and do my own thing
instead of like, wow, that sounds fun.

Of course, it's a beautiful day.

Like whatever.

Brad: Yeah.

Jessica Hische: When I started
doing mushrooms pretty regularly,

I was just like, does anyone
know how gorgeous trees are?

You know, like just even when, when I
wasn't like, like in that space, it just

kind of filtered out into my whole life.

I was just full of wonder all of a sudden,
and I would've been keep doing them.

But I had this issue I don't have
like the best memory because I think

I went through some like tricky yucky
stuff when I was a teenager, and I

just like don't have great recall
for a lot of my, like young memories.

But what, but I have incredibly
vivid dreams almost all the time.

Like my dreams are very
real and I do a lot.

I know that I'm dreaming sometimes,
you know, where I can be like, you

know, in the dream and I'm, I feel
like I'm just watching it like a movie.

Um, yeah, it's like lucid dreaming.

I don't necessarily have control
in the dream, but I'm like aware

that I'm dreaming and it's just
because my sleep is like so yucky

that I'm sort of in REM a lot.

And what happened from the mushrooms?

And this wasn't like while on mushrooms.

This just happened for
like weeks following.

Is that.

My brain started to mix in memories and
details of memories into my vivid dreams.

So then I couldn't tell if the dream
was like a thing that happened or if it

was a dream, and that felt really scary.

And so I was like, I
need to stop doing this.

And that's when I went on SNRIs instead,
I was just like, you know, regular

medicine is also great for managing your
mental health and let's do that instead.

Brad: that's fascinating.

Do you feel that those experiences
though, have had a staying power though?

Or like, are, are there like lessons
learned from that phase that you,

when you like look at the trees now,

Jessica Hische: I think like
there were a couple of experiences

that I had that were really good.

I never like had like a proper trip.

Like I only a couple of times, uh, got
to the place of seeing like some visuals,

like I like, you know, kind of like
holographic ledy world, which was great.

but I think it's more, I think
it was more like understanding

that I was capable of joy, like
that kind of joy again, you know?

And it didn't have to be because of like
getting a little, like having a little

bit too much alcohol and feeling that
like tipsy, like extroversion thing.

I was like, oh, like.

this is like straight up joyful wonder.

And the fact that you can experience
that as an adult is amazing.

And I was like, I need to figure
out how to have more of that.

Like, however that happens,
because I think you kind of forget.

'cause like kids are
always like, that's crazy.

Like for everything.

And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You just don't know yet.

Like, you know.

But yeah, I mean, it, it was, I
do think that that stuck with me.

I think it, it made me feel
like prioritizing that was a

real priority, you know, like.

That finding that was something
I really needed to focus on.

it's sort of that thing of like when,
when stuff's going weird mentally, you

don't really realize that, that it wasn't
good until you're out of it and then

you're like, oh wow, that was actually
worse than I thought that it was.

You know, like, and so once
you're out of it, you're, you

have much more perspective.

And it's always so hard to know
because it's such a slow build

to get to like the bad part.

And I think a lot of us get
to a part that's bad, but,

but we're still functional.

Like you're still totally capable
of like doing work and taking care

of your kids and doing whatever.

It's just you are just like a
robot doing those things, you know?

It's just you're going through
the motions and you're not doing

stuff because it makes you stoked.

You're just doing it because it's
like another thing on your calendar.

And yeah, and it was really
nice to get outta that mode.

Brad: that's great.

And I think, I think that
that's really well said.

And w whether psychedelics or,
or other ways, I think that

there are ways that adults can.

Find that perspective and, and, and
evaluate, get outside of the, the normal

neural canyons, that normal path, uh,
through the woods that, that we take.

and frankly I think like as I've
grown older and reconnected with

things like music and art, I'm
like, oh, that's what that is for.

That's what it's for.

Like I always was like, oh, I like to
make pictures and I like to make music.

And that's fun.

I. And now I, what I'm realizing with
especially like kind of coming outta

covid, going to those like first
concerts post COVI, you are taken to

that place, that, that, that, that
same place that you're describing

with, with psychedelics and there's
like, it is, it is a real presence.

It is a real joy.

There's a sense of connectedness, there's
a sense of elevation, there's a sense

of, of like, we're all standing in this
room together, sharing this experience.

And after being robbed of that for several
years, that hit me like a ton of bricks.

And, and just like you're saying to,
to, to focus there is, I mean, why

we're talking now on this, the, the show
that's kind of like dedicated, I think

to this attitude and I, it, and it's like
there's a real importance that I think.

need to be reminded of.

And that's what, that's
what the arts are for.

That's what these things that aren't part
of your just everyday lived experience,

that, that running through the motions,
that's, that is where the trap can lie.

Even for creative professionals like
us, like, or for people that, like we,

we flex these muscles more than a lot
of people, but it's like, yeah, I mean

it's such like a, a trope, but at the
same time it's like, yeah, people get

in their car and they go commute to work
and then like the next thing, you know,

like 15 years them by and they're just
like, wait, what, what, what was I doing?

Right?

And that's where I think
that those why the arts.

are so important.

Uh, and, and there are other ways to
it, but I do feel like there are these

just different modalities or different,
different ways jolting us out of our,

our normal routine that end up that
kind of shift off of the normal walking

path and, and into a place or at least
has us reevaluating or evaluating

like, wait, why am I on this path?

Am I, am I enjoying this, this journey?

Or, or does this just feel, I
feel stuck or do I feel like, do

I feel okay or do I feel great?

kind of bringing this all back to like
the people sort of like bathing in the, in

the guilt and bathing into despair and in
the doom scrolling and all of that stuff.

You don't get that time back.

You don't get that time back.

And as the, the, the days have turned
into months have turned into years

and are now turning into decades.

The people waiting for permission to
reclaim that joy and reclaim happiness.

It's like you, you lost it.

Like you l you allowed yourself to
lose this point, since 2016, almost

a decade of your life to, uh, other
people's shitty attitude and other

people's shitty ways of being.

And I, and I get it.

It's like, it's bad,
it's wrong and whatever.

There's a lot of concerning things and
that's, I think maybe something I'd love

to like pick at with you is just like,
'cause I've, I fall into this, this trap

a little bit, or not a trap, but like,
something that I try to reconcile is

that this kind of positivity, optimism,
hope, all of the good things that

we've been talking about Can't come
across as, as, as like dismissive or

uncaring for the, the real hard things
happening in the world, happening in

society, happening even in our own lives.

Right.

And it's like, I know that isn't true.

And, and I could feel it in my bones
that it's not true that I care very

deeply about all of this stuff.

In fact, I, I feel that this is, as
we've already kind of covered, it's like

this is an important way to fight that.

But like, I'm curious if you feel that
at all, like where it's like this,

like you feel so juxtaposed against the
negative that it, it almost feels like,

Jessica Hische: I, and
I get what you mean.

I think what I would say to that is I
think everybody has their fight to fight.

You know, like everybody has the cause
that lights the fire within them.

You know, and whatever that is for each
person is gonna be super different.

Like some people are kicked up about
women's rights, some people are kicked

up about immigrant rights, some people
are kicked up about Ukraine, some

people are kicked up about Palestine.

You know, like everybody's got
their thing that has triggered

them, that has like lit the fire
in them of like, this is my thing.

This will not stand.

I must be for this thing.

And I think it's just important
to remember that each person has

the cause that they are the most
excited to fight against, you know?

And so I think with like the
positivity thing, the biggest

thing for me is focusing on
local, immediate community stuff.

Because I think that.

My, my big thing right now is
that like all of this work from

home post Covid stuff has like
destroyed all local businesses.

You know, like it's just had such an
immense impact of local communities,

of how people get together, of people's
connectivity to each other and all that

I wanna do because I know I can have an
immediate impact that not only makes other

people's life better, but it makes my life
better and it makes my kids' life better

by just being way more engaged in my local
community and trying to create initiatives

around getting the local community to
like be more connected and involved.

And then what happens then
from that is that like.

Local communities stand strong
against larger communities,

against the largest communities.

So like that's why it can feel really
good to be in California because

everybody in California just sort
of agrees like, Hey, fuck all that.

Like we, if we have to, we'll
just be an island unto ourselves.

And you just kind of have this
understanding that we all are in this.

And that we are not gonna let
that corrupt us or whatever.

And it has to do with the fact that this
smaller community feels aligned against

this bigger or bad thing, you know?

And I think that's, so that's
my, that's where I'm at.

But like everybody is really different.

You know, like if you have a family
member that's been personally affected

by something, if you have been personally
affected by something, you're gonna

have a really different approach
to, like how to deal with all this.

And I think the, the thing that gets
tricky is when people try to assign a

value scale to the things that people
are upset about or are kicked up

about, or care about, you know, like
by saying, oh, well you don't, you're

not putting all your effort into this
other thing that is way more important.

Therefore, what you are
doing doesn't have value.

And that's just not true.

You know, like you are gonna be
the most effective when fighting

the fight that you care about.

And so, like, don't try to fight
the fights that you don't all

the way care about right now.

You still care about them, but
they're just not the top fight.

And so just, we only have so much
time, and so you have to just pick

the fight that you're gonna win.

So pick the fight that
you're ready to fight.

Brad: Yeah.

It's, it's, it's really well said.

And I think that that's a really
important reminder for people because

I think that there is, there's, there's
kind of a, a narrative out there.

There's the, you know, if, if
you're not outraged by this, then

you're, you're part of the problem.

And like all of that stuff,
like, that's a, a very, very

dangerous mentality and stuff.

And the fact of the matter is, is that.

There, there is only so much of you.

There's only so many hours in the day.

If you are committed yourself fully
to, you know, uh, gun control or

women's rights, that means that
you're not committing your full

self to preservation of coral reefs.

If you're preserving the coral
reefs, that means that you're

not fighting gun control.

Like there, there is only so much
of you, but like, because we are

just inundated, inundated and
it's just so loud and so noisy.

And I think it's a lot of that
sentiment is coming from a place

of, I feel this in my body.

I feel this in my soul.

know this to be important.

And that sentiment is a reflection
of their, their reaction to it.

So it's, it's understandable,
but it's not understandable to

expect other people to do it.

But it's like, so, so that I, I. My, my
take on it is it's like everyone has to

do their own work, and that often involves
taking a step away from the noise machine

in order to reconnect with, with their
values and what their life experience

and what their skills and unique gifts
and, and, passions and enthusiasms are.

And then.

will have a, a greater sense of
clarity and purpose to be able to

sort of move the needle forward.

And the surprising and kind of
cool thing is that there will be

byproducts of that that will end up
rippling out into these other fields.

Like if it's all grounded in,
in love, ultimately, these

things are interconnected.

These, all of these systems, all
living things are interconnected.

And that, like, it really does require
all of us moving and, and hitting things

from our respective angles to make
a difference to, to, to, to show up.

Like if we all pick a lane, it
means that the rest of the lane's

atrophy and, and bad things happen.

So it really does require this, this idea
of, um, I was just talking to somebody

that the, the word, I don't even know
if it's real, but istic is, is what

we're describing here, is this like.

Show up there, there is a
pluralism to how we show up.

And we could all sort
of express our virtues.

We could all build love, we
could all build community, we

could all help in our own ways.

that like your way is going
to be different than my way.

And that's okay.

So long as we're all,
good things together.

Like that's, that's it.

And I think we could appreciate that.

Like we, we could learn
to appreciate that.

Jessica Hische: Yeah.

I think one of the biggest
things too is that, it's really

difficult to make big changes.

for one organization or one
person to make really big changes.

'cause I was, I was having a conversation
with someone about this, about like

initiatives on a city level or like,
you know, stuff that's meant to like,

address like really systemic problems.

But the issue is, is that it takes a
lot of people, a lot of time to come

up with a plan, and then they have
to start rolling out the plan, and

they roll out the plan bit by bit.

But as they're rolling out the plan,
there's other groups that are going,

this plan isn't happening fast enough.

We're gonna put together another new
plan of how to address this system.

And then everyone goes, you're right.

That's not happening fast enough.

Because 5% of that first
plan has only rolled out.

So then a new plan, plan goes into
place that then starts from zero.

And what happens is when people
do this, when people try to always

address it from the top down, they're
putting forth these huge systemic

changes and only getting 10 to 15%.

Done.

And then all of a sudden
everybody has a big rebellion

and says Not enough is happening.

So it never gets to a hundred percent.

Whereas if you just tackle small
problems bit by bit and just work through

them, you can actually get stuff done.

And so like, I think that's another
thing to remember is like that all this

stuff that we're talking about is just
about like taking action now and setting

yourself up in a way to take action.

You know, like building up your personal
reserves, getting yourself kicked up about

a thing, doing a thing that you can have
immediate impact on, even if it's small.

And understand that many small
things equals one big thing.

You know?

Because a lot of times when you try
to do one big thing, It's really

difficult to roll out that whole
thing because people always wanna

come up with the new big thing.

They wanna be in charge of the new
big thing they want, you know, like

everybody's got different ideas of
what the new big thing should be and

it's just really hard to do that.

And it just, you just see it over and
over again where people have these

really grand plans and they never get
a chance to actually actualize them

because be because everyone's impatient.

And by the time they start rolling
it out, other people are like,

well, clearly this wasn't working.

We've gotta rethink it all.

Brad: yeah.

No, that, that's exactly it.

And I can't help but think like that our.

Media landscape contributes to that.

It's like, again, like the,
the woes of the world are

showing up to our screens 24 7.

so we feel like we need to react and act,
in equal measure, which is, oh yeah, we

gotta solve these big wicked problems
and wouldn't, you know it, I feel guilty

and, uh, like I'm incapable of doing.

It's, it's because you are
right, you are incapable

Jessica Hische: Yeah.

Brad: these, these big,
wicked problems, right?

So it's like, it's like we, we, we
have to like reframe our reactions

and our response to these like macro
level things with, like how you're

saying it just like this, just these
really like, kind of focused and,

and immediate and actionable things.

that is what any human
single person can do, undo.

That's beautiful.

That's great.

We need more of it.

Jessica Hische: agreed.

Agreed.

Brad: how have you felt that your
ambitions and priorities have changed?

We've already kind of like talked
about it with like, like the kids and

stuff, but even just in, into this more
like purposeful stuff, like there's

kind of like different seasons of
our career and, and life and stuff.

Like how, how have you felt
things shift for you and how

do you, like, feel about it?

Do you feel like a loss or do you
feel, uh, like it's just inevitable

and you're rolling with it?

Jessica Hische: don't, I feel like I've
been really able to recalibrate like every

few years based on what I want my life
to be like and what my interests are.

So for me now, my big
focus is sort of two.

It's really like the big focus now is.

How do I set myself up financially so
that I can do more things that are more

fun, like both workwise and lifewise,
you know, mostly workwise because a

lot of, you know, the higher paying
projects are you working in a silo?

It's a, it's for like a big
commercial thing or whatever.

And the more fun things are things that
don't always pay the best, things that are

more like collaborations than they are,
client projects or, volunteerism through

design and work and that kind of thing.

And I feel like I always want to do those
things, but have a hard time balancing

it against needing to earn an income
for my family and stuff like that.

So just really trying to figure out
the way to make it so that I can do

more of those things in five years
and I can make more of my life's

focus around that, you know, like.

That I, it's not just about like
donating money to local organizations

and more just about like, what can I do
to actually do things like, you know,

can I turn studio works into, uh, have
a nonprofit where like I take my salary

and anything that goes beyond that goes
into a nonprofit that goes towards local

arts organizations or towards, you know,
grants or whatever, you know, like a

way to help sustain everybody else.

You know, I feel pretty
strongly about like.

Local retail and things like
that and how difficult it is.

It's like just almost impossible.

It would be amazing to just like be
able to have some sort of program to

help people do small scale retail.

Be knowing that it's not really a big
money maker, you know, that it's just

like a thing that you have to do, or
like, if you wanna do it, it's not

meant to be like your next career 'cause
it's really difficult to succeed at.

Um, but that, those things are
really amazing for local culture

and also just for personal reasons.

And so, I don't know, just like try
and I, I wanna figure out a way to

like take all the skills that I've
learned and resources that I have

and help other people with them.

But I also know that I need the
financial ability to do that.

And I don't wanna be
reliant on other people.

You know, like I don't want it to
be like setting up a thing where

there's donors and then board
members and blah, blah, blah.

Because I like it just, I don't know,
I just feel like people with lots

of money always screw things up.

So.

Brad: So it's true.

I lo I love what you're saying.

It's like, and this is a really
interesting, we'll say theme that's,

that's emerging on, this is something
that I spent a lot of time thinking

about as well, where it's like, you
know, like money is a tool, right?

And what you're describing is like, money
in this sense is a platform a way for

you to provide stability to your family.

And you wanna like.

like tick that box so that you could free
up your, your mental, you know, spiritual

energy to, to do more worthwhile things.

It's, it's, it's money is a
tool in that respect that can be

wielded to unlock many good things.

Jessica Hische: Absolutely.

Because I think too, like it just
depends on how you're using it, you know?

Because like city, like if you think about
how to effectively use money to do stuff.

Like there's certainly, like the city of
Oakland, which is where my studio is, is

not a very well organized city in general.

I think I can say that without
getting everybody upset.

And part of it is like they
end up having to charge.

They have to charge,
they, they charge a lot.

They have to charge a lot for things
like permits to do things or whatever, to

like make up for the fact that they just
like bleed money over all sorts of stuff.

So it's just like, there's certain
organizations where like more money

does not equal more effectiveness.

And actually, like I.

Brad: Yes.

Jessica Hische: out how to like
use money in a smart way is really

important and is really difficult to do.

And so I think like I wanna focus on
things like that, whereas I feel like

there's like plenty, I mean, there's
tons of organizations that you can

donate to and they use the money in
excellent ways and it's very useful.

Um, and so I'm not knocking nonprofits and
charities and stuff that already exist.

I'm just saying that like, if you're
thinking about direct contributions to

people, there's probably some really smart
ways to set that up where it actually

does have like a really big short-term
impact on both them and the community.

You know, like one of the things that
I was thinking about doing and this was

just, this is sort of a down the line
pipe dream in, in terms of doing something

that's a more nonprofit thing, is setting
up a fund that people can apply to to

host local events like community events.

So it's basically like you, you get a
grant to do a community event, which then

unlocks the community in terms of their
like presence with local retail and other

restaurants and all that kind of stuff.

So it's less about like giving
money to a person to do a thing and

more about like, if you are doing a
community related event, we will help

you file all your paperwork and we
will give you money to like set to

do rentals and, and permits and like
whatever, like that kind of thing.

Um, so it's like thinking about
ways where the money goes towards

something that's very immediate and
actionable and has ripple out impact

on the other local businesses and not
just on that one person's business.

Brad: Right, right.

It's like, here's this thing that's
like right now because it's just,

it's, it's harder than it needs to
be or just like out of the budget

of, of like a normal community.

So it's just like, here's, here's just
like this little push to just like

get the ball rolling on, on it, and
then you end up with this beautiful

ripple effect of, of people kind of
taking it and, and rolling with it.

That's great.

But, but I guess like, kind
of like back to, let's say

like personal finances though.

So hard to grieve with all of that
stuff, and that sounds great and I'm

looking forward to you making that.

But also like whe when it comes
to like your like personal.

Financial situation and it's like, okay,
you got a family and there's that, there's

that kind of like balancing act that tends
to happen where it's like, okay, like

what's our obligation to provide stability
for our own family versus like the, the

world at large and community at large.

And obviously like as your
financial situation changes,

so does that balance Right?

But I like what you were saying
earlier, 'cause it's, it's almost

like, it's not even about like the
money, like where do I point my money?

You're, I think you're really describing
like, where do I point my energy

and how could I free up my energy by
way of just kind of like taking care

of my personal financial situation.

Getting that almost kind of out of
the way so that you're free be able

to exercise your and point your
energy to these really important.

Projects, right?

That, that maybe it's not that you can't
trust other people with your money,

but it's like, no, you, you have ideas,
you have gifts, you have skills that

Jessica Hische: Yeah.

Brad: to

Jessica Hische: Well I think you've
been part of groups and organizations

and all kinds of things before where,
you know that like the main thing is

just getting people to follow through.

You know, like everyone's got
a lot of ideas and very few

people wanna follow through.

And part of it is because everybody
is just too busy, you know?

Like they got too much shit going on.

And that's kind of what happens.

And so I think like.

While I have the energy to do stuff, you
know, like I'm 40, I feel like I'm gonna

have a lot of energy until I'm like 55 or
60, and then I'm still gonna have energy,

but it's gonna start to taper, you know?

And I just feel like I've got
these, like two decades of,

of proper go get 'em energy.

And then I, I just wanna do as
much as I can during that time.

I wanna be the person who makes a
suggestion, then actually tries to do it.

You know, not the person who just
like talks about it and tries to get

someone else to do it that is not as
invested as me or whatever, you know?

And that's, that's really what it
is, is like, it's not, I'm saying

that I can do it better than someone,
it's just like very few people have

the ability and that attitude and
the tenacity to actually do stuff.

And I know that I'm one of those people,
um, just because I love just hammering

away at a thing and, and making it happen.

It's like, it's really thrilling to me.

And so I wanted.

Make myself more.

I wanna be like, I want people to be
able to use me in an effective way.

I wanna be, I wanna be a resource
to people, you know, like if

they have a thing they wanna
do, I'm like, how do we do it?

Let me help you do it.

And, but I do need to make sure
that we're not like, freaking

out financially as a family.

Like, you know, 'cause
I, you can't do that.

You can't like, give yourself to other
people if you're not taking care of the

people that you're in a, in a house with.

And so that doesn't mean that I need to
have like, crazy trust funds for the kids

or whatever, but it means that I should
probably start their college funds.

Like, you know, one of them is 10
this year, so it's probably time

to start a college fund, you know?

Uh, and like, not that it has to be all
the way saved or anything, but you know

that before I divert a lot of energy
into another space, I probably have to

make sure that my kids aren't complaining
about me in therapy, uh, in 10 years time.

Brad: But yeah, I, I think
that that's, that's well said.

And I think that that really like hits at
the, It's like, well-meaning altruistic.

It's kind of always feels weird to be
seemingly selfish, but it's like after

it's all said and done, it's like you
do need to take care of your family.

Like that is, that is the most
important thing you could do.

And that's ultimately like a good
thing for society writ large and for

your community that you are taking
care of your family and your kids.

there's kind of like a reframing
of like the selfishness, but Yeah.

A hundred percent.

Right.

It's like there's a difference between
that level of kind of pragmatic, like,

I've got mouth to feed and kids to put
through college and they have a trust fund

and we have a, a yacht and, and whatever,

Jessica Hische: exactly.

I think people have a hard time, parsing
the difference between wanting to have

a decent retirement fund just in case,
you know, like, I don't plan to retire.

I plan to work as long as I humanly can,
'cause my work is fun and enjoyable.

but who knows?

I mean, what if I like get physically
disabled and I can't do that anymore?

Like, I have to, you have
to like set yourself up.

Like, what if one of us ends up
being a solo parent because something

tragic happens to the other person.

What if one of the kids has a problem?

Like, you just don't know.

I mean it, like all kinds
of stuff can happen.

So there always has to be buffer,
but there's a real difference between

like being practical and safe and
planning for like potential hardship

that might happen or might not happen
versus like hoarding like money and

sitting on top of a pile of emeralds.

Like it's a very different thing,
you know, like at a certain point

everybody will be fine, like you
can just start giving it away.

yeah, I mean, just getting to the
point where everyone would be fine

if I got knocked out or if Russ got
knocked out or if one of the kids

got knocked out or like whatever.

Just like getting it to the point
where we'd survive as a family.

We wouldn't have to go bankrupt.

We'd be able to like take care of.

A big problem that happened and it
wouldn't be an incredible hardship.

That's all that I want.

And then anything, once we have
that, those assurances, anything

beyond that that doesn't need
to get saved up, that's fine.

That can go towards cool, helpful things.

Brad: Uh, that's great.

I wanna touch on something
and then, uh, looking at the

Jessica Hische: I.

Brad: we should probably wrap up soon,
but I really like what you're describing.

you've done it a couple times,
you've put yourself 10 years down

the road, 15 years down the road and,
and also saying, yeah, I just wanna

work for as, as long as possible.

how do you think about that?

And also like how, in that same
lens of like the longevity of your

and, and creative life, the breadth
and depth of that creativity.

Like, like you've already turned
over a lot of stones, uh, in the

creative realm, which is awesome.

Um, and I guess like how do you see
that breadth and depth, like how have,

how have you, how do you describe
that and how do you like, see that

changing in the, in the coming decades?

I.

Jessica Hische: Yeah, I think I,
you know, I've been much more of

a designer and commercial artist.

I. Um, because for most of my life I have
felt like I've needed permission to make

things, you know, like I need a brief, I
need someone asking me to solve a problem.

Um, and that makes me excited and
gives me permission to make stuff.

And so it's kind of a mix of that.

And then also coming up with my own
things, which usually have to do with

me learning a little bit of a new skill
and wanting a way to practically apply

that skill or trying to like work in
a certain way or think a certain way.

And so it's like projects end up
being the way that I'm like, oh, I

really like doing this one thing,
so I'm gonna come up with a way that

I can do that thing for a while.

Um, and so that all is still gonna
exist, but I think like I would, I

do want to be a person who can like,
loosen up a little bit more in terms

of how I create and, you know, like.

Try new things and get a little sloppy
and get a little bit more experimental

and maybe like exist in the world as
a bit more of an artist and, and a bit

less as a commercial artist designer.

Um, I don't know when, and if that'll
happen, if it'll ever happen, like

maybe things will just totally keep
shifting and I'll just keep getting

more and more like problem solving and
pragmatic and whatever, like, who knows?

But that's one path that it could go down.

I'm not sure.

I also would love to teach more
'cause I like, uh, being around

young people and, uh, that's fun.

Like, I, I love that and I haven't
been able to do that because I

just have been too busy and haven't
been able to pin down and whatever.

So I wanna, I would love to
do that more as I get older,

and that would be really fun.

Um, also just like hoarding uh, maker
equipment and doing a lot of stuff with

that and letting other people use all
my maker equipment that's, that's big.

Like Russ wants like to get some
sort of workshop space at some

point when he doesn't have to work
in tech anymore so that we can just

like accrue a bunch of maker shit
and just like let people use it.

Um, I don't know.

I feel like my, my thing for my whole
career has just been about helping people.

both myself and other people, helping
them get unstuck and getting them excited

to like, make stuff and not feel like it
needs to be this whole intimidating thing.

And I feel like that's just
gonna translate into different

things as I get older.

Like whether that's like I'm doing
it through money ways, by setting up

like scholarships or like whatever, or
whether I'm doing that through youth

programs or through arts programs or
through like having a maker space that

people have access to or like whatever.

It's just about like, how do I break
down the friction to make making stuff

for everyone and for myself, you know?

Like I think that's, that's
kind of the biggest thing.

Um, so I think that's just gonna
always be, that's just always

gonna be part of it, you know?

And it's just gonna have different
forms, you know, it's just gonna

take different shapes as I get older.

Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like that's the, that's the
winning formula that you've already

demonstrated in many realms and to just
point that formula at, at different

things and open up doors for more
people to make things that's beautiful.

Absolutely beautiful.

Jessica Hische: to to, to bring
it back to the kid convo too.

I've been one of the things, and you
can validate this 'cause it's a hundred

percent true, whereas like people are
bored and exactly who they are, right.

You know, like they come into this
world and they are fully formed people.

And so my big thing about parenting
is the only thing that you can do

to impact your kids is to either
add friction or remove friction on

the path of who they're becoming.

Right.

So as a parent, you are either throwing
things in their path and preventing

them from taking that path, and they
have to go around your obstacles to

get to where they're ultimately gonna
be, or you're actively removing the

things that are in their path for
them and helping them through that.

And I think that like having that approach
to parenting and understanding that like

people are, whoever they're gonna be and
everybody has different blocks, and the

whole thing is identifying those blocks
and helping them move them outta the way.

You know, like whether I can
physically move them out myself or

I can show them how to move it out
and like that's the whole thing.

And so I think it's like, it's both
like a parenting thing, but then also

just like a general creative life thing.

Is that like identifying the, that
we're all on a different path and

everybody's got different blocks and
that we can actually go and help remove

those blocks or teach people how to
push their own blocks aside, you know?

Brad: Yeah, a hundred percent.

And I'm sure you get it all the time.

It's like, how do I do what you do?

And

Jessica Hische: Yeah,

Brad: younger people or people that
look up to you and it's like, it's

like, how do it's exactly what you
described with your, with your kids.

It's like have your own version of this.

It's not going to look.

Like me, you are not going to be me.

You're going to be you, and
you have no choice to be you.

Jessica Hische: yeah,

Brad: Right.

So best get to it.

Right?

Jessica Hische: yeah.

That's why like the thing that's kind
of funny is like the whole idea of

like a family business, you know, like.

If you think about passing down your
family business to your kids, it's

like that's just assuming that they're
built just like you, if they're

gonna have the same role as you.

Whereas like they, like the reason
why family businesses don't always

last multiple generations is
because you're basically having

your kids fall into a role that
they're not necessarily built for.

But if the idea of the family business
is, Hey, this is the thing I've

built, what role in it could you have?

You know, like what would get
you excited that would make

you wanna participate in this?

That's a totally different thing.

You know, like it's not all about,
you know, handing down the ownership.

It could just be about handing
down part of it that they

get excited about, you know?

So I, I don't know.

I think it's.

It's just very interesting
and it's fun to model.

Like a lot of the things, like,
that's my favorite thing too,

is just like living my life.

How I hope that the kids live their life.

You know, if they see me working
after hours and make a comment

about how I'm working a lot, I'm
like, I'm only working right now

'cause I really love what I'm doing.

Like, you know, I'm just really excited
about this thing, so I just can't stop

working on it 'cause I'm excited about it.

And so I'll just be like, I hope
that you're excited about a thing to

the point where it's bedtime and you
have a hard time going to bed because

you just wanna work on the thing.

You know, like, we'll see.

Brad: percent.

hundred percent.

And, and, and that, enthusiasm
absolutely infectious, and your kids

will benefit from it in the same way
that the rest of the community who

have, you know, who are familiar with
you and your work and all that you do.

Are also impacted in a positive way by it.

Uh, it's like that, that, that
outward facing, that broadcasting

of, of passion and enthusiasm is.

It's again, so, so important.

And that's why, again, kind of coming back
to this idea of, it's like in this moment

in time, I feel like there's a, there's
a constriction or, or there's a, there's

a, you, you can't, you can't do that.

You can't say that you can't, you can't,
uh, share those, those eight positive

things in, in this moment in time.

It's like, no, it's actually imperative
for you to, to do that because people need

to be reminded that these things exist.

That they can, that they have agency, that
they have that same spirit inside of them,

even if it is dormant or even if it, if
it's underutilized, you're helping give

them permission to exercise those muscles.

And, and that's, that's
a really important gift.

I cannot believe that we made
it this entire time without

digging into music in any real

Jessica Hische: yeah.

Brad: Uh, aside from just glancing on
it, I would love to hear what music you

think more people should know about.

Jessica Hische: So it's a bit of a
tricky one because I am the world's most

nostalgic person, and I just listen to the
same shit over and over and over again.

there's a, there's one thing I feel
like everyone should know about,

which is that you can search,
Spotify for playlists based on BPM.

so that is a, a fun tool.

So I do sprinting at the gym, and so I'm
always looking at the one 90 BPM lists and

finding music based on things that are one
90 BPM, which I find to be really helpful.

And then let me look into
my, my recent liked songs.

Um, oh, I really liked the band
Bronco, and they're young and touring.

They're very fun, big into them.

there's also a band named Fiddler,
which is like a kind of drunk

teenage band, and I love them a lot.

Right now.

I can't play them in the car with
my kids 'cause they curse too much.

But no, I just listen to the same
tired music over and over again.

Brad: That's

Jessica Hische: So

Brad: That's not

Jessica Hische: I'm a creature of habit.

Brad: Well, I, I think we all are.

And there's, there's
definitely back to those neural

Jessica Hische: I,

Brad: There's, there's a lot of
science that backs that stuff up.

Why?

Why We kind of

Jessica Hische: yeah.

Brad: those, those rhythms.

But I, I would give yourself more
credit based on our other conversations.

You, you, your finger on the
pulse more than most, so.

All right, well, cool.

Um, any like, last things, uh,
you wanna, you wanna plug where

could people find you and, uh,

Jessica Hische: Well, should
definitely sign up at Studio

Works app for our new thing.

We're still pre-launch.

Um, and then the community, if you
don't care about uh, invoicing software

and stuff is Studio works.community.

And then, um, I always have kids books to

Brad: anybody?

Jessica Hische: Oh yeah.

It's free to students and it's
free to Studio Works members.

And so right now you can sign up for
free for Studio Works and then get

a free, like in into the community.

But then once we actually
release the invoicing software,

you'll be paying for invoicing
software but have free community.

And then, um, I always have
new or kids books to chill.

Ooh, I do have something.

Let me go off screen for a second.

Two things.

This book came out not that long
ago, my first book of fancy letters.

My camera doesn't wanna
focus on it, but there it is.

That one's a good one.

And then this is new.

I have an updated version of my IMP
Progress book, which is now a thick boy

'cause I added almost 90 pages to it.

And so this is on pre-order right
now and it, and it comes out in May.

So you should get this
'cause I'm proud of it.

And it turned out really good

Brad: Beautiful.

Beautiful.

Well, that's awesome.

Well, uh, we're gonna have
to do this again sometime.

I thank you so much for,
for coming on the show.

Uh, you're one of the, the
first people that I'm talking

to, so really appreciate it.

And, uh, yeah, keep doing your
thing, putting out the positive

vibes in the world and those kiddos.

Jessica Hische: all day our day.