Pottery, Theater, CSS Collaboration, and the Ethics of AI with Miriam Suzanne

Brad: Miriam Suzanne, hello.

Miriam: Brad.

How are you?

Brad: I'm doing great.

Let's get into it.

What, what has you waking
up excited these days?

Miriam: Oh yeah, that's a,
that's a rough question for me.

I feel like, the last couple years,
haven't been the most exciting for me.

except, I've been really trying to refocus
on w- what is it that gets me up excited?

so that's meant a lot more
time in the pottery studio, a

lot more time making theater.

so we got a show coming up this weekend.

been getting lights together for it.

We're building a pottery
shed in the backyard.

I teach pottery once a week.

so it's mostly, it's mostly those things.

It's the, the things that only cost me
money and, really let me yeah, make art.

I wanna make art, so

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: that, that has me.

And, and teaching people.

I- collaborative stuff, teaching that
also, just so rewarding to be in a room

with people and see people get excited
and help them get to the next step and

have a breakthrough and, uh yeah, all that

Brad: with the, with the
breakthrough stuff, are you mostly

talking about the, the teaching
pottery or around the theater?

'Cause you've been doing both for

a, a long time, although I feel like
it's… I, I've seen your, your pottery

stuff come online more in recent years

Miriam: the pottery is the place
where I get to teach people

directly in the room, right?

So, I mean, I also have that
experience teaching web stuff.

I mean, I love, I love that, although I
rarely get to do that in the room now.

Everything is just a Zoom call or a
video or something, which that's fine.

But it's fun to be in the
room with people and see them,

see something click for them.

And,

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: w- I'm teaching beginner wheel
in the pottery studio, so it's, like,

really people going from zero to, like,

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: their first cylinder and,
like, you know, there's some moment

there where something clicks for them.

And, and, you know, I also hang out in the
studio, and there's lots of other people

around, and we're helping each other.

We're giving each other tips.

So it's a similar sort of, like,
yeah, people ha- watching people

have breakthroughs is, is really fun.

Pottery is hard with,
like… I don't know.

When I left college, I thought my options
were to become a full-time production

potter, throwing the same piece over and
over every day, or never do pottery again

because you need all this equipment.

And so I just sort of assumed that
since I didn't have a path to becoming

a production potter that I could see,
uh, I was never doing pottery again.

So there were, like, 20 years
there where I didn't do it.

and then somebody was like, "Oh, you know,
the rec center has a pottery studio. You

can just go to the rec center." Uh, and
it changed everything, and, you know,

now I, I go to a membership studio where
I get more access and, things like that.

But

Brad: it's heartbreaking that through
your experience that y-you're fed this

binary or this, this, there's this
assumption, and I feel like I've had the

same with a career as a musician versus

Miriam: Totally.

Brad: nothing.

And, and there-- turns out you can kinda
do whatever you want, and there's like

all sorts of ways you can carve out
space for it that doesn't need to be

your everything, but it also doesn't
mean it needs to be your nothing either.

And, and I, I wish that more
people at colleges and teaching

environments specifically like
helped paint that picture a little

bit better because it's like,

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: gets fed as this
like, "Here's the stuff.

This is great.

here for a reason.

You enjoy it." And I don't know.

Figure out, figure out what to do with it.

actually just-- I just saw some
tap dancing over the weekend.

We took my daughter to my wife's
hometown, they-- there's Busch

Gardens there, and I was like,

my wife used-- she used to
draw caricatures at Busch

Gardens for like six years.

So she's really damn good at drawing

caricatures.

But, so we, we took her to the park,
and they had these, these shows, and

it was like straight up the whole
like Riverdance like all that stuff.

And it was, it was like
some pretty serious stuff.

Like there's like a lot of time and energy
that go into a big production like that.

I'm sure not, not dissimilar to
your, to your theater productions.

There's like a lot of coordination,

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: of work, and you could feel
the work that goes into that and

Miriam: Aha

Brad: it whenever you,
you experience that.

So I don't know.

Yeah.

Could you, could you talk about
that, that kind of experience?

Like putting on a theater
production is like such a effort.

Miriam: Yeah, it is.

And I, I mean, I guess I don't
know what to say about it.

It's sort of like it's what I've always
done, and it's what I've always enjoyed.

Uh, theater is what I studied.

Um, the web was a mistake.

i- and it is for me, it's sort
of like theater, theater is just

sort of all of the arts together.

It's just like, well, you can throw
music in there, you can throw design

in there, you can throw tech in there.

it is dance, it is writing,
it's just everything, and put

together in whatever way you want.

I don't know, I've always approached
it in this hybrid way, where I'm like

I, I don't care too much about genre.

That's not a thing I care about.

I don't care too much about,
is it more dance or is it more

writing or is it more music?

we make shows, often my company that
have a lot of music in them, uh, to

the point where I would say, like,
you could classify it as a musical,

but you'd be misleading people because
if they're expecting a musical to

be the thing that they've always
known as a musical, it's not that.

Words are confusing, right?

Labels are confusing 'cause
they start to, I don't know,

they start to take on baggage of

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: how we've used them or what genres
people have latched onto in some way.

But I just find that sort of
hybrid communal problem-solving

really interesting.

How are we gonna, how are
we gonna pull this off?

How are we gonna make this an
experience that brings people in,

that, has people asking whatever
questions we're looking at?

and I think for us, trying to make it
so that we're not telling people how

to feel about something, we're asking
them to have feelings about something.

You know, does that…

If that makes sense.

So it's not

like…

Brad: perfect sense.

Yeah

Miriam: Yeah, so not like all of
us are gonna cry at this moment,

but like, here, here's something.

how do you, what do you bring to it?

What is, what's your reaction?

What's,

Brad: I've alwa- I've always found that
fascinating about art in general, because

whenever you read about certain artists,
certain artists do come to the table

with, "I do want to elicit this emotion

from people." Or people are protective
and are like, "No, this is being

misinterpreted," or whatever.

And then there's other people that
seem to have, the awareness that it's

like, this is a conversation or this
i- this isn't-- it's not up to us to,

guide everyone or get
everyone to the same place.

Like, everyone's going
to bring their own stuff.

So, so it sounds like you're leaning into
that, like, kind of more, we are going

to d- present you some stuff, and it's
your job to engage with it and come away

with your own, feelings and thoughts

Miriam: Y- yeah, and

it's,

our job to give you something
worth responding to or that's gonna

draw you into the conversation.

I mean, we sort of have this, like…
In certain ways, our approaches come

out of sort of experimental traditions.

But there's this place where, like,
experimental also is this word that has

become sort of synonymous with, like, I
don't, I don't care how you experience it.

Like, fuck you, here's, here's my art.

Deal with it.

Brad: Yeah,

Miriam: And we sort of feel
like, well, that's not, that's

not how, that's not how we are.

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: want to bring you in, but we
want to experiment in how we bring you

in, and we want to try things, and we
want to see if you'll come with us.

And there's some way
to, yeah, I don't know.

You know, user testing is
experimentation with this idea that

we're gonna try to bring you in.

And I think, you know, that
can get gross in other ways

of, like pandering or whatever.

But finding this, like, how do we, how
do we try things and experiment and

bring you along for that ride so you're
invited into something maybe a little

different from what you've seen other
places, but but you're welcome in it?

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: pushing you away.

Brad: Yeah.

I love it.

And I-- you're, you're painting
this picture of there's this idea

of kinda like labels and words
carry with them connotation, carry

with them like, "Ah, yes, even

Miriam: Sort of the main thing they do.

Brad: Well, right.

And but it's the double-edged
sword because, yeah,

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: can translate to, ah, yes, you're
just like hammers on the floor for an hour

and forty-five minutes to, like, a noise
rock soundtrack, which, which could be

Miriam: It'd be good.

Brad: but yeah, it could be good.

But, like, but maybe
isn't, isn't the thing.

But it s- it sounds like, like a lot of
what you're exploring with the theater

company is, like, how do we put something
in front of you, something that, that

doesn't necessarily fit your, your
preconceived notions, and to do that

in a way that doesn't… Like, like,
like you said, you're, you're welcome

into it, and, and we want to bring

Miriam: Right

Brad: it, and we want
you to engage with it.

That, it's really fascinating.

Like, because I, I think that it doesn't
have that same like, yeah, fuck you spirit

of like, "Here, we're out here. We're,
we're going to do this." It sounds, like,

very intentionally designed, where it's
like we care a lot about originality.

We care a lot about this creative thing.

The, the genre, the, the musicality or
whatever might b-be changing with each

production, but it's like we're Would you
say that that's like the theme across,

like, your years of doing this, is
like doing original stuff that's trying

to, like, kinda continue to put yet
another original brick after the next?

Is that, is

Miriam: Yeah.

Yeah.

I

Brad: or…?

Miriam: mean, I, I struggle a little
bit with the word original just because

I don't know how much I believe that
I'm coming up with something new.

Brad: Sure

Miriam: think I, I guess, I don't know.

Authentic isn't quite right either
'cause I, I sort of don't believe

in authenticity as a thing.

I believe in, I don't know,
integrity or something like

Brad: right, all right.

Let's talk about, let's talk about your
disbelief of the, the authenticity,

'cause that like, that, that, that
for me is, is a word I, I, I wield.

I think it's a very

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: So, so yeah, tell me about your

disbelief of

Miriam: I don't know.

I don't, I don't believe that there's,
like, one true self or something.

you know, I exist differently in different
circles and in different spaces, and

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Miriam: all of those are true to me.

So I think the danger of
authenticity is this, like, what

I'm never allowed to change?

I'm never allowed to have, have different
ways of being in different places?

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Miriam: I'm supposed to be, I don't
know, Mark Zuckerberg's one unified

identity across, across all of life?

Like, I'm not… I don't think
that that's a real thing.

I don't, you know, I'm queer.

I don't like born this way narratives
that sort of are like, "No, no, it's

okay because it was predetermined
and and we're stuck with that."

I like instead saying "I'm alive.
I'm, like, I'm literally alive."

And being alive is growing and
changing, and that's all it is.

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: so I get to, I get to
absolutely be different until I die.

Brad: Yes.

Miriam: That's, the whole thing.

Brad: Yes.

Yes

Miriam: So yeah, so I worry about
authenticity as some, like, I

don't know, l- locking in of,

Brad: Yeah, yeah.

Yep,

Miriam: yeah.

Brad: parameters.

Th-this I've defined
authentic in that, that

becomes the static thing that if you find
yourself outside of those lines suddenly,

then oops, all of a sudden you're not,

Miriam: Right.

Brad: you're authentic.

So yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

No, it's-- I, I, I like everything
you're saying there, and I, I

think that that's, that's just
gets back into to words, right?

And their, their

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: how they get conveyed.

'Cause like

Miriam: Sure

Brad: that your, your entire alive
self is your auth-authentic self.

Your,

Miriam: Right.

Brad: CSS spec writing
self, as well as your

musician self, as well, as well as your

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: as well as your, your queer self.

Like it's like all, it's is it…
I think it's Walt Whitman that's

like, "I contain multitudes," right?

And

Miriam: Right, exactly.

Brad: awesome.

That's amazing.

I'm gonna need to look this up.

There's a, there's a restaurant in
Pittsburgh that ha- that carries this

name, but it's, it basically like defies
explanation or defies d-defies definition.

we had our baby shower there.

I really

Miriam: Okay.

Brad: know this better.

So it's like, ineffable.

Ineffable.

Ineffable.

yeah.

Miriam: Okay.

Yeah, interesting.

Brad: yeah, yeah.

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: like kinda defying definition, which

Miriam: Right.

Brad: kind of… It's, it's, that's
kind of a fun and beautiful thing,

and I've always, I've always, kind
of like enjoyed hanging out in that

territory where a lot of times people,
like including j-- I was just with some

family, and my cousin brought some,
some in-law kind of family around,

and so it was like, "And here's Brad."

And it's like, "What do you do again?"
And it's like, I kinda like now

hanging out

"
Miriam: Yeah,

Yeah, Yeah, What do I do?

Brad: Yeah, what do I do?" Yeah.

I kinda like not having, like

a single answer to that, or it's,
it-- back to Mark Zuckerberg,

it's complicated, right?

Relationship

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: status.

It's complicated.

It's complicated.

Miriam: Well, and I think, I
think, you know, I have some r-

reaction to anything that makes
it sound like I think I'm special.

or, or more special than other people.

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: Just like I don't, I don't
believe that it's like I'm bringing

something totally unique and original
and, and, and outside anything that

you've ever experienced before.

Except that I'm bringing my
experience, and you probably haven't

experienced my experience before.

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: I'm just not focused
on genre as the goal.

Usually… I mean, sometimes genre's
interesting to focus on, to be like,

" Here's the conventions of a genre.

What happens if we push it?"

We actually had a great
experience as the band once.

We were like, "Let's write a dance song.
What is a dance song?" And like we had

to go looking, and we like found this
structure that was like, this is a, this

is a pretty classic dance structure.

Let's do our best to write into that.

And we got a great song from it,
and I think a lot of people would

be like, "That's not a dance song."

And we'd be like, "Well, we tried."

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: and we got something interesting
from putting our aesthetic onto

that structure and, and trying to
do what our take on a dance song is.

Brad: Yeah.

And, and,

Miriam: I th- I-

Brad: and that, that's great.

That's great creative inspiration,
and I think that that's like,

you see a lot of artists do that.

I f- like, for whatever reason over,
like as you were saying that, I thought

of like the Stones song that was like
their like disco song that is like you

have no business writing a disco song,
but they, they did the same thing.

They're just like, "I don't know,
like, let's, like, try this out."

And then they have, end up with,
like, a bigger hit song out of it

Miriam: Yeah, I mean, it's

Brad: like,

Miriam: that's a little bit like, like
Velvet Underground's Loaded or Lou Reed.

Lou Reed, Velvet Underground?

Where they were like, Lou Reed
couldn't write a hit, and he was

like, "Here, I'll, I'll write an album
loaded with hits." And it worked.

He did.

Brad: but it, but it sounds like you,
you're almost, like, approaching it a-

almost as, like, an anthropologist or
researcher that's kind of deconstructing

the anatomy of a dance song or exploring a

genre and saying, "What are the qualities
of this thing?" And that surfaces the bits

that give you things to, like, latch onto

that allow

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: to, to play by the rules, and then

Miriam: Mm-hmm.

Brad: bend and then break them, and…

That's beautiful.

So, so your show that's this
weekend, long have you and everybody

involved in it been working on this?

Miriam: Well, so this is-- this
one's a little bit different from…

We sort of have two sides to our
theater company parallel tracks.

And they're sort of related in how
we view the world but very much

unrelated in terms of what happens.

So on the one side, we're creating, like,
an original show every year or so Like,

we're starting to write the, the one for
next year simultaneously my co-founder,

Julie has been doing work inside prisons
for I don't know, 15 years, maybe more.

And we've sort of taken that on
underneath our q- our company.

So this one is the guys
inside Lyman Correctional

Facility doing "12 Angry Men."

Brad: Amazing.

Oh my God

Miriam: This weekend we'll take
all of our lighting equipment

and everything that we can.

I mean, we have to send them
a list in advance and get

everything approved and then,

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: take two hours to get it all
checked in through security and whatever,

and then we're just in the gym for two
days trying to set everything up, write

all the cues, do a tech run with the
actors and then do two performances

of it and pack it all up and get out.

Brad: Oh my

Miriam: so really tight turnaround and
under, under some extreme conditions.

Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, so is this your first time
doing, like doing it this way?

You're saying that Jolie was,

Miriam: No, we've…

Brad: with it.

Miriam: Yeah, Julie's been doing it for
a long time, but yeah, it's been, it's

been under Grapefruit Lab for a while.

We've been doing it and yeah.

So this'll be, this'll be the third
or fourth show that I've worked on

It's a two-hour drive each way and
I haven't been able to fit it into

my sort of weekly schedule, but I
often come in for the production

doing the, helping set up the tech

Brad: I mean, that, that has to be
like, could you d- like describe

the, the like atmosphere like,
like for all like the actors,

everyone like participating in that?

c- I would have to imagine that
that is like something that they're

like latching onto and, and enjoying

Miriam: I think one thing that
I, I really like about Julie's

approach to this is that it's really
focused on, They already have art.

They are, they are artists already.

They don't need to, us to come
in and, like, bring them art.

They're making art all the time.

So what we bring is sort
of a professionalization,

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: here's, here's how
we're, we're just gonna treat

you as professional actors.

And we're gonna give you training
to help you step up to it.

And but you're, you're the, you're a
creative in this process just like us.

So we're facilitating,

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: we're bringing in the equipment to
make it possible to do a full production.

Even if it's gonna be in a gym
with random security lights on.

We're gonna bring in costumes.

We're gonna make it
possible to really do this.

So

Brad: That's

Miriam: yeah, so

Brad: It's so

Miriam: it's really this like we're
just gonna, we're gonna give you the

space for collaborating and making art
together uh, in a professional setting.

yeah.

Brad: love how you use the, the word
facilitate, 'cause that, that's what

it sounds like.

It's like, and to, to sort of draw
a line to your pottery teaching

as well, that's, that's also the

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: worth

Miriam: yeah

Brad: like it's not like, I
am, creative artist person,

and I will teach you to be an

artist."

It's like, It's like, has
an innate creative capacity.

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: is an artist, whether they
think of themselves that way or

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: and your job is to just extract it,
facilitate it, and just give them the,

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: and

Miriam: something in there,
there's something in there I

wanna get into at some point.

But I don't wanna veer us off of
prison work if there's more there.

But I've been thinking a
lot about creativity lately.

So if you wanna veer into that

Brad: Go for it.

Please tell me.

Tell me

Miriam: Well, there's, there's sort
of two things that I'm holding up next

to each other thinking about this.

One is, like, why didn't I become
a production potter out of college?

that could've been a
path I pursued, right?

And I was taking a lot of pottery.

Like, I, I could've finished with
a pottery degree, and I could've

gone to somewhere to apprentice.

Why didn't I do that?

And I think part of it was at the time
I had this, I had this sense of like,

"No, I need to make original things
that are creative." And then I, I

didn't have enough… I don't know.

I was, I was scared that production
pottery would be, not creative

enough or something, and that
I didn't have the vision for

something totally unique, right?

And so did I end up not doing pottery
for 20 years because I had some

unrealistic expectation of what making
art is or what being an artist is?

And is, is that sad?

So that's the one side of what
I'm thinking about or, or one, one

piece that I'm throwing in there.

The other is, so I, I
do a pottery market now.

I, I go to these markets.

I'm selling my stuff.

I have it out at a table, and people
come up all the time and they say,

"I'm not creative like you," right?

And I'm selling mugs and bowls and shit.

And I'm like what here
could you not learn to do?

All that I did was I looked at
the shape of a mug and I thought,

" What's my opinion about it?

What, what shape do I like?" And then
I made that shape, and I keep making

that shape trying to, like, hone it
and, like, how can I… Every time I get

one out of the kiln, I'm like, "Yeah,
okay, but I have one more opinion."

And I go back I'm just looking at
things and bringing my opinion to them.

And I love that, and I love that
I'm not worried about whether it's

totally unique or I'm just like,
"What, what's my point of view?

When I look at this, what do I like?

What would I like better?

How can I, how can I shift it?" and
now I'm like, "Oh, I'd be happy doing

production pottery." Like, if my, if
that's just, like, I spend all day

thinking about what I like in a mug,
and trying different things and then

making a bunch of them, and then other
people use them and maybe like them,

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Miriam: that's great.

That's so great.

So that's, yeah, that's…

Brad: 20 years.

Miriam: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brad: but I think, I think that what
you're touching on is something that

so many people, all of those people
that are approaching you at the

markets and stuff saying, "I'm not
creative," or talking themselves out

of it, and so much of it has to do
with, "Here's my preconceived notion

of what an artist is or what a creative

person is, and, and, and here's
what they do specifically."

Or if you're, if you do this kind of,
like, music or whatever, then, like,

here's what that looks like.

And, and it's out- it's outward-facing,
where it's like, here's somebody

else looking in at me and what their

Miriam: Right

Brad: are, and do I have that to put
myself up against this invisible,

invented audience almost, and,
like, receive their judgment?

That then ends up talking you
out of the whole affair, right?

And then, And then,

you never do it.

And, and it--

and what you're describing is, like,
this, this kind of like almost like

a, a kind of going inward, and then
you realize, oh, the only person you

really have to satisfy is your, your
own self and your own curiosity,

and give yourself the permission to
explore what you think is interesting.

Miriam: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brad: That's freaking beautiful.

it's the old trope of, like, you
know, art versus design, I suppose.

But, like, know each other through

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: and our work, and we both have
done, like, client services stuff, and,

like, that's a, it's a different gig than

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: think is interesting
and let me do more of that.

Miriam: Well, I think a little bit of what
I'm saying is that having had a career

in both, I don't see a difference, or I
feel like they help each other out, right?

They're… Like, when I make
a mug, I am just doing design.

But instead of a client,
well, I have customers.

I, you know, I, okay.

Or I mean, even if I didn't sell
at a market, I'm giving them

to friends or something, right?

And so I'm getting this… I'm getting
some sort of feedback from, from people.

I'm trying to build something
that is gonna relate to people.

That's the same thing
I'm doing in the theater.

I'm trying to build something that
tells a story that or, or brings

up some questions, or y- presents
an aesthetic or whatever it is.

And for me, it's not gonna be done until
other people have interacted with it, and,

and I am concerned about that interaction.

I want, I want this to reach
people in some way, right?

Even if it's very few people.

Brad: GPT

Miriam: I want to hear
their reactions to it.

That's why I'm doing… I'm not
doing it just for the process

for me to express something.

I don't know.

I'm, I'm sort of, I'm trying
to be part of a conversation.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah

Miriam: and I see that very similar
to doing… Like, client work

changes the power dynamics but
it's, to me, the same process.

I just now have to, yeah, uh,
bring somebody else along in a

way that they have more power.

I don't know

Brad: It's like you're, you're I think
that you're touching on something

that is, that is interesting, is that,
like, everything is interpersonal,

even, like, self-expression isn't--
You're, you're not… There, there's

one artist that comes to mind.

He was, like, like a janitor that spent,
like, 30 years constructing this, like,

giant church out of, like, scrap, like,
foil for, like, 30 years, and they,

like, only found it after he died.

It was just wild.

Miriam: Wow.

Yeah, Yeah, Really for himself

Brad: own.

Right, right, right.

But, like, most art and expression
and e-especially things like

theater, yeah, there's this, this

bi-directional kinda
relationship with other people.

And I like how you said that, like,
client work is that, but there's, like…

Yeah, it, it shifts the power dynamic.

It's not like, "I hope everybody--
creating my art. I'm in full control over,

like, like, the process and the outcomes,
and, like, up to the customers or the

audience to see if it lands with them or
not." Like, with the client, you're like,

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: need them to be on
the ride with you as, as

a collaborator a little bit, and

Yeah.

Miriam: Yeah.

But to a certain extent, I feel like,
you know I don't know, Julie and I

have this theater company, right?

We bring other people in 'cause
we're rarely doing shows that

just the two of us can pull off.

So in that case, we sort of have final
say, but that's sort of just like we're

the clients or something, you know?

Like, and we've got other, other
creative professionals involved and

they're participating, but it's, for
them, a bit like client work, right?

Like, 'cause we've got
some sort of final say.

so that's not so different
from a client hires me.

I'm just on the other
side of that equation.

I'm often…

You know, I, I see myself as a designer
as brought in to facilitate the process.

Like, well, one of the first big jobs
that we got at Oddbird was working on

a project for Mozilla, and I panicked.

I mean, w- I had just been doing
web development a couple years and

I was like, "What do I have to teach
Mozilla about web development?"

But it very quickly became clear that I
wasn't working with a team of designers.

I was working with a team
of, product engineers who had

never built a website, right?

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Miriam: and so I did
have something to bring.

I was filling a different role.

They have designers at Mozilla somewhere

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: not on that team.

we were bringing in… They
knew how to build Firefox, and

they knew that better than me.

But I knew how to build a website
that would work in Firefox , and

I knew that better than this
team that I was working with.

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: so we, we had,
we had things to share.

Brad: Yep

Miriam: and I, you know, it was important
that I listen to them about what is

the tool that they need and how does
their process work and all these things.

But then I'm brought in to say
something about what is the process

of building a website and how do
we, how do we work through stages of

design and all that sort of thing.

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: so in some ways I am,
again, facilitating the process

I mean, I've always seen my
specialty as collaborative

creativity collaborative making.

That's the specialty I bring.

So I bring that to theater.

I bring that to my band.

I bring that into the prisons.

I bring that to web development.

I'm here to talk about how we all together
get to something that we're all proud of

Brad: It's beautiful.

That's beautiful.

was that always apparent, or do
you feel like you've just had a

trajectory across so many different
creative, like, and outlets that

you're just like, "Oh, okay, that's,
clearly a thing I gravitate towards"?

Or, or has that been, like,
apparent from, like, early on?

Miriam: I th- I think it became
pretty apparent pretty early on.

I mean, I think it's the only
reason I ended up… Like, I

wouldn't be, I wouldn't be here,

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: if, if it wasn't for that.

Like, I had no, I had no interest
in tech sort of as a broad category

or in, yeah, in web development
sort of as this thing to go do.

I just needed some websites,
and then I found that CSS

was a weird performance art.

And I was like, "Okay, this is
interesting," and collaborating on design

was similar to collaborating on theater.

And it all just sort of… It, it
just felt like a continuation of the

same things, but in a way that people
would actually pay me money for.

Brad: That's it.

And

and there, and there's a reason
why this field is littered with so

many musicians and people that were

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: in bands or

Miriam: I,

Brad: doing

Miriam: some…

Brad: words.

Yeah

Miriam: I don't remember
what conference it was.

It was years ago.

There was some front-end conference
and somebody on stage asked who

had a computer science degree,
and like four hands went up.

And then they asked who has a music
degree, and it was half the room.

And I was like, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Something about, you know, aesthetic
math, I think, or something.

Yeah.

Brad: That's so, that's amazing.

A- what's, what's crazy is that you've
gone down the rabbit hole all the way

like to the basement of artistic math,
like, like at like the CSS spec level,

and now you're collaborating with
people from across the world, people

that are like sweating the details of

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: le- a level of, of kind of like
care and rigor and minutiae, and there's

like a lot of-- Surely there's like a lot
of just hard of dynamics and, and things

that you need to take into consideration.

So do, could you talk a bit
about applying your creative

facilitation to that process?

'
Miriam: Yeah, yeah, weird.

I like, I like diving into things.

I guess it's my hyperfocus.

yeah, I mean, it was a similar sort
of thing to, like, when I first

joined the working group feeling
similar to when I first worked

for Mozilla or something, right?

I'm like, "This group, their attention
to detail and their skill here is

so much farther than, than mine.

I don't understand why they would want
me in the room." And then I realized

that there were only four of us in the
room who build websites professionally,

and I was like, "Oh, right, they
need the four of us to talk about

what is the actual experience here of
building a website professionally."

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: and so that's, that's
part of what I have to bring.

I mean, the other thing I found is,
like, as soon as I was working on sort

of big prominent specs, the majority of
the job was just can I get Google and

Apple and Mozilla to agree on something?

And so it's the same sort of, like,
design process of getting different

stakeholders, finding out what their
concerns are seeing if I can build a

design for a CSS feature that meets the
criteria and everybody can agree on it.

So it felt, it felt very
much like the same thing.

I'm just working with spec text and the
shape of an API instead of CSS and the

design of a layout or people and space
and, and building a theater production.

It's all sort of

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: getting everybody's input and
then trying to sort of edit it together

and facilitate, how do we solve all
these problems, which I find fascinating.

How do we, how do we
solve all these problems?

And it always means a
lot of trade-offs and,

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: But you learn really interesting
things from the, the different

concerns different people are bringing
and yeah, it's fascinating being

in a room of browser engineers who,
uh… I mean, the CSS working group

I find just the most fascinating.

And, I mean, there's politics and
there's, there's fights and it's not

like a, a perfect process or something.

But what I find really interesting about
it always is that these are extremely

technical people sitting in a room
discussing what's gonna look good.

Like half of them are like typography
nerds on the side or something, right?

Brad: Yep

Miriam: have some-- They
have this engineering, this

deep engineering background.

They know the inside of WebKit or Chromium
or Gecko backwards and forwards, and

they're sitting in a room discussing
what text wrap pretty should mean.

Like what, what is pretty text wrapping?

I, I love it.

I love it

Brad: That's amazing.

It's amazing.

It's, it, it-- And, and that is, that
is like the, the beauty of that fusion

between like technology, aesthetics, like

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: scaling that, making that like
every time that that little declaration

gets used, it freaking looks good.

And like,

I just get to drop it in,
and then my shit looks good.

And you're like, oh, you're,
you're sweating these details

so that people can just

Miriam: Yeah.

Yeah

Brad: a sudden typography sucks
less on the web across every

website and every app like on

the, like the planet?

like sign me up.

And like, and, and what's fascinating
and like the story you're telling about

like your own kind of multifaceted
creative self, each one of those people

that you're working with, like you're
saying, are like these typography

nerds on the side, or they're coming
from their own sort of like pulling

from their own world experience and

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: kind of come together and
you're, you're finding that common

ground and like making it happen.

It's, it's, it's-- That's beautiful.

It's, it's, it's completely beautiful.

And I, I think that one of the, the
things that's so beautiful about that

is that there has to be, almost by
definition, this multidisciplinary of

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: and perspective to it.

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: ha- it can't happen with just
somebody who's like coming from like

a computer science degree, because of
what that code is doing, need to all

of a sudden pull from the thousands of
years of, of written and, and everything,

words and characters and shapes

and shit like that.

It's so freaking beautiful.

Ah, amazing.

Miriam: it's wild.

And I mean, I think it's like, I sometimes
am like, "What, what the fuck am I doing

here?" Just in, in web design in general.

Like I, I never-- It
feels accidental, right?

It feels like this was not part of
the plan, and I'm not convinced that

tech is an in-industry that I like.

I feel a little bit like when I got into
web development, it wasn't part of tech.

Like, there was a separation there
and then like tech ate web development

and web design in a way that I don't
like and don't feel comfortable here.

Um, and I'm like: How did I get here?

And then I look at that and I'm
like, "Oh, well, that's very clear."

It's very clear how I got here.

Because it is this, uh, sort of, yeah,
problem-solving with this h- hybrid media.

And then not just that, it's, it's
really audience interactive in a way

that other code… A lot of code is sort
of building building interfaces, right?

And that's one thing.

But CSS

is the user controls it.

The, the, the end user has the final
say, and it's this collaboration between

the end user and the browser that they
choose to use and the device that they're

on and us, and it's this, it's just
this weird… It is a collaboration.

CSS itself is a collaborative medium
which is one of the things that I think,

like when somebody asks like, "Why
do people get frustrated with CSS?"

I think it's that.

I think people think that they are--

Brad: yeah.

Miriam: I think people think that they're
in control, and they're not in control.

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: if you don't approach it as a
collaborative medium, you're gonna get

frustrated because your collaborators

Brad: Yep.

Miriam: keep showing up

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

Miriam: and they have different
opinions than you do, right?

And that's frustrating if you
think you're a solo artist.

but I'm here because I played with CSS
and was like, "Oh, I'm collaborating.

That's fun.

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: let's, let's explore that."

Brad: I think that that's really
beautifully put because I think that that

are the, the triple equal signs and, like,
the true and the false and, like, this,

you know, this, this programming that
is, like, always going to predictably

spit out the right outcome and, and
it's like, I can appreciate that, and

I appreciate the appreciation of that.

Like, people who really are like, "Oh,
this is good," and that, that there's

something very satisfying in, like,
writing a, a program or a loop or

whatever.

And, Oh, look at that."
I, I'll never forget the

first time I got that to show up where
it's like, like, loop through all of my,

like, blog posts in, like, a WordPress
thing, and it's like, "Oh, I did it."

It-- You know?

Like, that's really fun, but, but
I love how you're drawing that

distinction between, like, here is
this thing that just on what device

you're looking at, depending on what
the user's preferences are, depending

on, like, a whole lot of factors, yeah,
you don't control this experience.

This is not an eight and a half by

eleven piece of paper

that this is always
going to look this way.

So, so just by its just inherent
nature, John Allsopp, Dao

of Web Design, all that good

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: It's just, it's just like here
is this thing that is innately fuzzy,

and if you are already comfortable
in that kind of fuzzy, like rejecting

that, that kind of this is either true
or false, but you just are able to

hang out in that kind of fuzzy middle
ground there, you're gonna have a

Miriam: Right

Brad: with CSS.

But if you like that, then
yeah, you're probably gonna

Miriam: Yeah.

can I pull it back to the, to
the topic in, in the ether?

Which is to me… So I keep hearing
developers say, " I'm output oriented.

I care about the results.

I'm results oriented, not process
oriented." Um, and using that as

an explanation for why, like, it
doesn't matter if I use AI or not,

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: because I'm, I'm results oriented.

And I look at that and I say, "You
care about different results than

I do." You have to narrow down your
definition of results to think that

you can ignore process, and that
process doesn't impact results.

I'm not process oriented just
because like, I have some

process that I think is funny or,

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: fun to do.

I'm process-- I focus on process because
I think it changes the results we get.

And to me, that collaborative nature
of CSS is part of that, right?

Like, it's that, like, I
don't control the results.

I control h- I can, I, I am part of
a system where results are determined

through this process that's collaborative.

And so by focusing on the process,
we, we all together get better

results, and that's important.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Miriam: and so I can't just go like,
"Oh, the process doesn't matter. I'm

results oriented," because that means
that I only care about the results

I see in my browser on my machine.

Like, it's very works on my machine
to call yourself results oriented.

That's my hot take.

Brad: Yeah.

I, I, I think that that's, I think that
that's very good 'cause, like, what

they're describing there is this th- this
kind of a, a walling off or, or putting up

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: around being able to a
different perspective, right?

And,

and it's that, whether we're talking
about AI, which, which let's, let's

do that or throughout our careers, I'm
sure, like, we've all kind of worked with

people that are just, like, adamant about

things, and you can kind of be
like, "Hey," like, "here's this

Miriam: trade-offs.

Brad: Right.

Right.

Everybody's coming to, like, as
you've been, I feel like very deftly

describing, it's like everybody's coming
with their own experience, with their

own expertise, and good creative
collaboration is when those different

experiences and perspectives and wants and
needs and gotchas and the rest of it all

get thrown in the stew together, and you

Miriam: Right.

Brad: hash through it,
and you, and you, and

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: the work and you hash through it,
and then you end up with a result that you

actually can collectively feel proud of.

Miriam: Right

Brad: it's when there's somebody,
and usually it's like just some dude

on the team that's just like, " I
hear what you're saying, but like I

Miriam: Right

Brad: liked this," and like, "I'm

Miriam: I know the answer, yeah.

Brad: Right.

Right.

Right.

"And

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: you all would just see it my
way, then, then this would all go

better." And, and of course, it never
goes better whenever you just have

these people just kind of, yeah, like
building up a wall around them and their

their preferences.

And it, and so it's, it really is in
that willingness and ability to kind

of come together and participate in a
process that ends up with results that

just a single person feels good about
and it's like, "Oh yeah, my, my idea won.

Everybody else was like left in the dust."

Miriam: Okay.

Brad: it, that's the kind of shittiness
that it's like we want to get away from.

The best projects I've been a part of
are the ones where people are like,

everyone sees themselves in the result.

Everyone

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: along for the ride and

Miriam: Yep.

Brad: they left behind, the compromises
they made in order to like m-meet the

greater good, and that you all come
out w-- and go and, this exists now."

And like, yeah, sure, was it the
exact perfect thing I had in my head?

No.

But like we all got there, and
we all got there together like…

Miriam: would the perfect thing
in your head, would it, would it

have still been perfect in reality?

I doubt it.

Brad: Yeah.

Bye

Miriam: I think that's always a,
like we, we get attached to something

in our heads, but it's not real.

It's not real.

And so we have to have… And
I think, you know, I'm thinking

about lowercase process.

Like, you know, like we do
lowercase agile development.

Agile in that we try to be agile
about it not in that like we follow

some set of rules that are describing
what that process should look like.

I don't know.

I, I find, I find rigid
processes interesting to study

and uninteresting to follow.

like I think a lot of them have really
good ideas and then when it becomes

just a set of rules, eh, sometimes
they work, sometimes they don't.

But there's often like a mindset
that's worth taking away or something.

I remind our team sometimes that we're
agile not because it avoids mistakes,

but because it responds to them.

Like we don't have to feel like, "Oh,
how did we, how did we go down the

wrong path?" It's more like, "No, no,
this is, that was part of the plan." We

planned for going down the wrong path
sometimes and being able to turn around.

That's the key

Brad: Yeah.

And that, and that's part of that
facilitation that's sometimes very

challenging for people who, again,
aren't used to living in that fuzziness

Miriam: Right

Brad: like, they want the
certitude especially… Yeah,

it's like we're ponying up a
bunch of cash to do this thing.

We had a

Miriam: yeah

Brad: We're down the road.

What do you mean the plan is changing?

Like, oh shit, we're, like,

Miriam: Yeah,

yeah.

Brad: It, it takes people like you
to be able to be like, "Hey, it's,

Miriam: It takes people like
you to be able to be like-

Brad: actually okay."

Miriam: Does this feel relatable?

I always feel like there's a, there's
a point, I don't know, it's 65 to

75% of the way into any project, any
project, where you've put in more

work than you're seeing results.

And it happens every single project.

Like, there's just no way around it.

There's no way to move results earlier,
'cause at some point you have to be

taking some risks and getting out
over your skis, and you have to push

through that point to get to the end
of a project and find out if it worked.

Or to… You have to get into that
point of like, "Oh, shit, this

might not work," to step back, take
a look at it, and be like, "Okay,

what's, what's the missing pieces?

How do we fix it?

How do we, how do we get back?"
And there's sort of a like,

until you get there, you're not
gonna know what those fixes are.

So, you have to get yourself to that
point where it's, where you've put in too

much work and you're seeing no results.

And, and that's when you can start to
understand the, the thing you're making.

Brad: I think that you're dead on
even with like your like 65% 75%.

I think that those are accurate,
cause, 'cause like the first 10

to 15% is just getting going.

And like I

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: there's something especially
whenever you're working with other

people or you have like new collaborators
or something, it takes a long time to

get to know one another, to get into
groove with one another, to like even

just kind of like collectively paint
the picture going, "Here's where we're

going." that's the-- a full 10 to 15,
maybe even 20% of, of the project.

And then there's those kinda like
rough kind of first steps where you s-

are taking your first collective steps
together, that feels a little uneasy,

but at the same time you give yourself
quite a bit of grace because you're like,

"Well, we're just getting started." And
then you end up kinda getting into like

a, "Oh, okay," like this kinda feels like,
like a bit of like a rhythm or whatever.

And then there's like some-- this, this

Miriam: There's that dip.

Brad: there's that dip and then, and then
you kind of are like, "Yeah, something

needs that…" Like w- you know, you're
looking at the, the timeline or the…

It's like can't keep going at this
pace, so we gotta like, fire, activate

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: or the, or turbocharge
this or whatever.

And that's, that's whenever you end up
kinda And it, and it's at that place that

that you're like you find yourself,
yeah, looking over a very scary ledge

Miriam: Yeah.

Like, this, this might fail, but maybe
we finally… Like, maybe we finally have

enough to understand what we're doing.

Like, like we've built enough to, to
now get a big picture and understand it

and, and know what needs to change to
get the rest of the way or something.

It's-- And I think that's always
the hardest part in terms of

facilitating a collaboration.

That's always the point.

And I'll try to remind a team at the
start of a project, like, "We're gonna

get to this 75% mark and it's gonna suck.

You are gonna feel depressed a
week before we open the show.

That's when you're gonna be depressed,
and then it's gonna come together.

We're gonna figure out how to make it
come together, 'cause that's what we do.

We figure out how to
make it come together.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Miriam: we're not stuck at that point.

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: Remember that we're
not stuck at that point."

Brad: Well, but, but, but that
i- that is where the, you know,

fear and doubt and all of,

like, that stuff can come in and, like,
we've seen it happen where on who the

people involved are, like, you know, some
stakeholders, especially the people that

are controlling the purse strings, they
have a lower tolerance for that fuzziness

or for that, like, risk
or for that whatever.

They're like, "We need this, know,
to, to work." And so you can get

to that point where at that, like,
place and they can start, like,

kinda having those conversations.

That's that's where it's like you
kinda need to, like, jump in front and

be like, "Wait!" You know, like, y-

that's, that's where

Miriam: Yeah yeah,

Brad: we're

Miriam: L- let us… Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Let us, let us solve the problem

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

And that, and that's-- Man, that's
just… Creative work is, is just kind of

inherently unknowable until it actually

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: Like that's,

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: it's by definition.

Like there's a reason why we're not
like, it's like, "Cool, we're just

going to go through this specific
process and end up with these

specific results each and every time."

Miriam: Right

Brad: not, that's not the, that's not the

Miriam: It's not how it works.

Yeah.

Brad: Right.

Miriam: Well, it's maybe-- I mean,
maybe that comes back around to the,

like, creativity is just looking at
something and having a perspective on it.

in order to have a perspective,
I need something to look at.

Um, Like, we can start from some
theoretical perspective about what we've

seen before but then we're a little bit
in the dark until we have something that

we can look at and be like, "Oh, it's
far enough along that I have opinions."

How do we, how do we
now finish shaping it?

Brad: So I'm gonna use that as my
bit to bring this all back into

the, the zeitgeist that is AI.

Because I think that there's actually
something-- I st- I've been starting to

pick at this a little bit in, in working
with these kind of creative collaborations

for a long time, and you just saying,
it's like, "Oh, yeah," and then, like,

we need to, like, look at something.

A lot of times, historically,
it's taken a long time to get to

that place where we're looking at,

at something.

And I, I wish that more places
were cool with my poorly done

napkin sketches and even, like,
designers just kind of like Balsamiq.

Remember, like, the little, like,
squiggly lines and kinda like

Comic Sans kinda stuff?

It's like, it's really only until
you're, like, pretty, like, far

down the line that, that like, all
of a sudden people start having

these, like, opinions about, about,

things and stuff.

So, what I've seen is a lot of time spent
on calls where people are just spending

the majority of the time trying to talk
each other out of doing the work, right?

The engineers usually especially.

" Here's why that

Miriam: Yeah No, that's gonna be hard.

Brad: Right.

Miriam: We shouldn't do
it 'cause that's hard.

Brad: right.

Right.

Or, "Well, we could do it this way, or
we could do it this way, or we could do

it this way." One of the things that I
have seen and I've been enjoying with

this new kind of, like, process having
this a-available to us is that we're

able to get to that thing, that part
where we're all kinda like looking

at something and that these people
who aren't, who historically haven't

been the, "Oh, I'm not creative.

I don't know what this is."

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: have a perspective or, like,
you, you know the, the user behaviors

or you know the business goals
or you know the whatever it is.

It's like, let's all have it.

Like, everybody, like, share
your perspective, and we're able

to, like, sorta synthesize it.

And instead of using our, our time on a
meeting together talking each other out

of doing some work, let's actually do
that work collaboratively, collectively

together, look at something and then go,
"Well, this all just manifested in front

of our eyes in like thirty seconds."

So we all know that that's
not, like, the finished piece.

So what do we like about this?

What do we not like about this?

What is this doing

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: this doing well?

And I've found that to be this, this
thing that I'm like, huh, as someone

who facilitates creative collaboration
and enjoys stuff and likes bringing

people from different-- with different
experiences together, I'm like,

here's this thing that allows this

process to be a bit more sort of
participatory and communal rather

than like, I am the design expert,

Miriam: Yeah, yeah

Brad: I will bestow my, my gifts
unto you, and you will give it the

green check or tell me to make the
logo bigger and I'll come back.

Miriam: I don't know.

To me, doing a design mock-up early
and showing an AI mock-up early

have similar collaborative problems.

And so I don't like either one.

'Cause to me, I'm like, like we will
actually our, our designers will

do high-fidelity stuff early on,

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Miriam: but they, we
won't show it to a client.

I, we refuse to show clients
anything high fidelity early on.

It's sort of like designers know
the process, and so they're, they're

thinking several levels at once.

But we want early in the process for
clients to answer specific questions.

And if we show them something
that looks done, they start

answering the wrong questions.

They're like worried about the shade of
blue, and I'm like, "We are not ready for

you to worry about a shade of blue." And
so we will, we will literally strip color

and design out of what we show clients.

So we'll have something beautiful,

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: and we will show something ugly,

Brad: Yes

Miriam: we don't want
that premature sheen.

I think that's

the, the f- the phrase that comes from
some interview that I saw quoted in a,

computers add this, this ability
to get ahead of ourselves and

make it look pretty before we're
ready to answer those questions.

And so that's where I'm like,
I'm not s- I'm not sure, like

I, I want the napkin sketches.

I want to be have- answering napkin sketch
questions, and I want to focus on that.

And then I want to move to
the next set of questions.

And so I don't see much
advantage in skipping ahead.

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: I'm like, that just, that just
muddies now what are we talking about?

Brad: I wholeheartedly agree with
you there, where it's like, it's like

the, the time in the, in the process,
in the, in the general arc is like-

Yeah … having all of the conversations.

I, I'll, I'll give you
like a specific example.

So Melissa now, works at, at a private
practice a therapy practice, and

the owner of the practice had old
rickety website just, just totally,

just pretty fundamentally busted.

Miriam: Mm-hmm.

Brad: so it's like having the
first conversations where the

conversation's about like, "What
are your-- what do you care about?

What are your, what are your values?"
And like she didn't even really… I

kinda, you know, did the old bait and
switch where it's like, "Oh, we just

think that this is just a meet and
greet," but it's actually like, you

know, this is us just kinda digging into.

We don't-- not talking about the
website until like an hour into

the conversation at all, right?

And so it's just like kinda, yeah,
doing all of that like kinda rich

work to like kinda get things
what the hell even is the thing.

I whole heart- wholeheartedly
agree that it's like, yeah, you

don't wanna just be going, "Cool,
so we're gonna make a website?

All right, let's make a website.

How do we like that?" Like, yeah,
it's like you- there's no get- there's

no getting around that, like, the,
the research, the, the heart of like

what it is that we're even doing.

Are we solving the right problems?

Are we like looking-- Do we
have the right materials in

place?

Miriam: and I think particularly
with people less experienced with

the process, how do we help show
them where we are in the process?

How do we help them understand what
questions should be answered now, and what

questions on that phone call should we
just say, "That's a question for later.

We'll get there.

We'll get there.

Take note of it.

Take note of it.

Write it down somewhere.

Brad: App

Miriam: Come back to it.

We'll let you know when we get there,

Brad: Yep.

Miriam: and then we'll talk about it."

Brad: and I think that-- So, so all
of that is, like, rich But eventually,

like, you, you get to that point,
what I've seen, despite my best

efforts, like if it were up to me,

we'd be doing things
whole lot differently.

But, like, i-in the course of a
lot of my collaborations and stuff,

there's a lot of, like, round
trips, and there's, like, a lot of

things and, like, a lot of… You
get to this point where it's like,

becomes this, this kind of, um… I
always get really nervous whenever

designers, like, peel off, and then
I don't hear from them for a long

Miriam: Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, that would make me nervous.

Brad: what are you, what

Miriam: Okay.

Brad: there?

How are you doing?" And then, and
then sure enough, like they, they

come back with like, you know,

something that's just, just, just like
wildly, like, out of bounds or whatever.

So, so all to say is, like, I-I've
felt this pull and, like, we've seen it

with, like, a lot of the tooling where
it's like, okay, people are doing like

these, like, high fidelity mocks in
these tools, and then there's now like a

toggle switch that allows you to switch

over into developer mode and it's
like, and that, know, I-I understand

like the utility of it, but I've seen
like a lot of these processes and

tooling that has like kinda come up
that end up sort of siloing people and

keeping people away from one another.

And

Miriam: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brad: how d- how do we,

Miriam: How do we…

Brad: we get

more

Miriam: To me it feels like we keep,
and this is the, this is the software

brain that drives the entire tech
industry we run up against these very

sort of human organizational problems
and we go like, "I see a shortcut with

more software." And I just, I just,
I'm so tired of that as a perspective.

You know?

Like, I'm just like, like
fix your organization.

Fix the organizational structure.

It doesn't have to be like this.

we don't have to create these highly
siloed organizations and then go

like, "Oh, why is it so siloed? Let's
build more software on top of it." We

can actually fix the organizations.

I don't know.

To me it's, like it's, it's software
brain, it's capitalism brain.

I don't know.

It's like,

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: like capitalism wants us siloed.

That's how we're most replaceable.

swap somebody in, swap somebody out.

It doesn't matter.

They're just a cog.

They just fit, fit here.

I get it.

It's cheaper for the CEOs and
then they give themselves a raise.

I don't know.

I am just so tired of like solving
these very human problems that, yeah,

I mean, the problem is collaboration.

Let's, let's collaborate.

Brad: It feels like, like a
non-answer 'cause, like, I've said w-

just what you said and, and people
are just like, "But so anyways,

just, like, tell me the tool."

Miriam: Yeah, exactly.

Well, and, and, I feel specifically
with when the tool being discussed

is one where you have to start the
conversation by being like, "Let's

set aside all the ethical concerns

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: then discuss whether it's useful."
And I'm like sorry, you lost me there at

setting aside all the ethical concerns."

I don't, I don't buy it.

I don't, I don't buy every single new
technology being sold as democratizing.

And then what we mean by democratizing is
a different set of people have power now.

Um, That's not democratizing.

Democratizing is we're all in this.

And you're not gonna convince me
that three large companies doing mass

surveillance to steal all of our data and
burn down our world to give me an answer

machine that gets the answer wrong half
the time, that that is democratizing

just because I have access to it.

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: that is a company
selling me a product.

That's not a neutral technology
that we can use however we want.

That's a product that I

Brad: R

Miriam: can use.

I can decide to use that product, but
it's a product, and it's being sold to me.

I don't know.

I, I have other ideas for
how to solve these problems.

I don't need your mass surveillance
product to be the one answer.

I saw an interesting interview with
a historian who was saying, "We've

already given up on democracy.

We haven't had democracy for
a little while now because

democracy isn't the voting.

Democracy is the debating.

Democracy is the being in a room
and, and discussing with stakeholders

what's gonna work and how we see the
world and how we're gonna live in

a shared world together, and it's
that work of consensus building.

And instead, the consensus building
is already moderated by corporate

algorithms corporations who have a
stake and tell us what can be debated

and how to debate it." And she was
like, "Yeah, we can't… You can't do

democracy under those circumstances.

It's already gone.

All that we have left is voting."

And then she mentions a, 1950s
short story by Asimov and I,

I went back and I read it.

Uh, it's called, Franchise.

Where the, The supercomputer has
determined how people will vote.

And so it just has to do one final
interview every election cycle.

It picks the most average man, it
interviews him, and it determines

the election result based on that
interview because we have all the data

and, ooh, we can just predict, right?

And then you look and, and Sam
Altman is saying exactly this.

He's saying, he's saying
that's how it should be.

The AI will facilitate democracy, it
will make democracy better because

it will know what we all want, and
then it will make the decision for

us based on our true desires, right?

And then these guys are always
defining true desire as whatever

keeps us in their app, right?

And that's somehow, that's
somehow more true, more authentic

than what I actually want.

Like, what I will get
addicted to is more authentic.

I don't trust authenticity , right?

Like, like partially because of Mark
Zuckerbergs in the world, I don't

trust authenticity because they keep
telling me that Facebook will be great

if we just all have a single identity
and, and know that identity across

all systems and it never changes.

Everything will be great if we just
trust the computer to take in what

it sees as our relevant data and
predicts everything else from there.

But who gets to determine
which data is relevant?

Who gets to determine
what are my true values

based on, based on what I'll click on?

I think about Erin and I often are
working on projects like building

this shed in the backyard, right?

So we have tape, tape
measures laying around.

Sometimes we'll just walk around the
house and be like, like measuring

distances between ourselves and things.

It's meaningless data, but you treat
it as though like this is important.

Okay, I'm, I'm five feet
from that right now.

Okay, I'm three feet from you.

And I just see tech
walking around doing that.

Like we're all just walking around
with tape measures going like, "Oh,

you're three to-- you're three feet
away from that and you're five feet

away from that," and, and then acting
like this is relevant data and that

we can build systems that will predict
our lives based on random measurements

that somebody decided to take, not
because those were useful measurements,

but because they're easy to take.

It's easy to track clicks, so
now we have to claim that clicks

stand in for true desires.

I am so sick of this

Brad: Yeah, yeah.

Miriam: You can see I'm going on
tangents, but this is how I think.

Brad: I-- It, it comes back to what
we were talking about with this,

like, the creative process, and
that, that dude that's like, "I'm

going to… I hear what you're saying
and all, but like, if only everyone

would see it my way," or, like, "I, I

have the solution,

Miriam: But I have the data and it's true.

Brad: yes.

Right, right, right.

And so I'm going to, like, construct
my narrative, like, to entrench my

thing and make it so that my answer, my

solution, my thing is, is the answer.

Miriam: So now we're living in a world
where the only answer I'm supposed to want

is whatever Reddit said but shuffled What?

I didn't, I never cared what Reddit said.

That's just some guys.

I don't know them.

Brad: this is all, like, very important
because it's like, this is the, the shit

that I internally, like, wrestle with as
someone who has been able to apply a lot

of this in ways that like, you know, to,
to, to do the split brain process which

I've, I've done, j-judge me, I, I guess.

Here's like the reality of
like, okay, Here's this thing.

There's some stuff.

There is a there there.

I guess it's not but I'm
able to use it, and I'm

like, Okay, that's it.

That's interesting." disagree
with power structures

and like the, the corporate structures
and stuff all around it and whatever.

put-- drawing a wedge between here is
this, this fundamentally new technology

material that can be used in the same
way that I've been doing my entire life,

which is, okay, here are new technologies,
artistic mediums, whatever, and I'm going

to like investigate and approach it with
like curiosity and see like what I like

about it, what I don't like about it.

And I g- and, and, and landing in a place
where I'm like, "Oh, I've been doing some

stuff that I'm like, "Oh, I've had this
dream," 'cause I was really bad at running

my books for the first say eight years of,
of running my business, and I've always

wanted to backfill all of this stuff.

And I'm like, I know like mentally
like what needs to happen.

I need to basically go through
PDF statements of like old

transactions and just reconcile
them in Harvest or whatever.

And I'm like… and I need like a
little program that d-d-- dro-- writes

the extractor to extract like the PDF.

And so I'm like, "Oh." And like, so
like finally like get to this place

where I'm like, oh, okay, like,
not like throwing it at everything,

but I'm like, I'm-- I am, I'm

Miriam: Right

Brad: myself going like, "Oh,
okay." Like I've like filled in

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: that I've been

like kinda sh- bad with before.

But I'm like, but yeah, but at the
same time, I'm like, I feel really

bad and conflicted about everything
because I'm like-- I am participating

in this stuff, and I am, by way
of doing this, I am feeding that

beast, and I, I don't like it 'cause

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: agree with it.

Miriam: I, I don't want to seem like a
purist, like, like you can remain pure

of s- some system I think for me, it's
like I don't blame people for using

the tools that are in front of them,
but I do blame people for hyping the

tools that they know are causing harm.

So I'm like, Okay, it's, fits your
process writing Python or whatever.

I get it.

I don't know that I would make the same
trade-off, but I get, I get the thinking.

but as soon as, as soon as you're like,

Brad: You can,

Miriam: "And, and because"

Brad: I'm fi- I'm fine, I'm fine with
it 'cause, like, I, I ju- 'cause,

like, I, like, I, like, everything
that you've said, I'm like, "Yeah.

Y-

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: all of it," and

Miriam: But

it's

Brad: here I am

Miriam: it's a particular
developer corner to turn.

And I- it's making me really frustrated
with developers to say, like, "I found

some use in, like, having conversations
with Claude about my Python," and

going from there to, like, "This is
intelligent," or, or, "This is," or, "This

is even broadly a good for humanity."

I don't know whether you're
writing your Python faster or not.

I just don't find that a… Like, I, I
understand why you would do that given

the tool put in front of you and given
bosses telling you that you have to.

Sure, sure.

I'm not saying that you're responsible
for personally destroying the world.

But when you then turn around and say,
"And therefore, this does actually

have a use, and we can just brush off
everything else," suddenly I'm like,

"Whoa, where did we… How did we get
there?" 'Cause I'm like, yeah, I see

ways that I maybe could use this, I
guess, but none of them feel worth

it to me for, like, mass surveillance
and handing over my, my data and my

questions to these corporations that are
trying to put me out of work and, and

really, like, they fundamentally believe
that humans should be done away with.

I mean, you watch the Peter Thiel
interview like "Should… Do you

think humans have a place in the
future?" And he's like, "Nah." Later,

like, he can't answer the question.

Like,

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: these guys do not believe
what I believe, and they're building

a product that fits their beliefs.

it is not a neutral…

There is some, like, technology at
the base of this that's interesting.

That's like, "Oh, yeah, we can do
statistical, analysis of data," right?

But that doesn't mean our data is good,
and that doesn't mean we need to surveil

the internet and steal all language.

We were using machine learning
technologies for interesting things

before, before we tacked large
onto the start of this term, right?

We had language models
without eating the internet.

And they were focused on a task.

They were, they were tools that served
a purpose a narrow, limited purpose.

they were built to do the
thing well instead of built

to look like an intelligence
that does everything mediocre.

and then we have to sort of somehow defend
it by being like, "Well, it did this one

thing okay," and it does feel intelligent
in that it uses language pretty well,

and it does use language pretty well.

That's an interesting thing.

Like, we've learned to mechanize
language I think that's fascinating.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Miriam: But even learning to mechanize
language doesn't mean that we have to

build a million new data centers and
discard all of our global warming goals.

Like, we can see that as an
interesting technology without

adapting what these companies
tell us is the, the result of it.

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: they're making that up.

And I come in with a very strong
like, "Yeah, I'm living in the

world as it exists, but also I
get to decide which rules I follow

and which ones I don't." And

I to, I get to, be like, "No, that doesn't
work for me." Like, I built my company

different from other companies because
I don't believe in the shit, right?

And we've had consultants come in,
and every time they tell us the

same thing, which is basically boils
down to, "You know you could pay

women less than men." And you know,
like, that's not how they say it.

But always when you boil it down, it's
like, "You don't have to pay everybody

well. You could pay some people worse."

And I'm like, "You're right, and that's
the world we live in. But that doesn't

mean I'm going to embrace it. I'm
not, I'm not, I'm not cool with that."

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: like, yeah, I know that
that's how you run a company and

that that's helpful for your bottom
line and all, all sorts of things.

But I get to decide if that's a
trade-off that I'm interested in.

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: more and more I'm not interested.

Brad: There's a number
of things that came up.

It's like, one, you're sort of
talking about like your own values

and thresholds and like your agency to

be able to to, decide whether
or not to do, to do something.

And like, that's definitely part
of like the narrative that we, that

I see a lot is like, here is like
the inevitability and so, and that

inevitability translates to a rolling over

and, and an acceptance and an embrace of a

Miriam: Right.

Brad: of the, of the
entirety of it, right?

And I

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: where, where there is a--
I'm not necessarily convinced

it's an in-an inevitability.

I, I am convinced in, through my own
experience with it that I'm like, oh,

I, I see some value there, but I'm
able to hopefully draw that line of

like, well, that doesn't mean that
I'm like suddenly like cool with

like all of this stuff, and I wanna

Miriam: Right

Brad: part to like help sort of like
say, "Hey, if there is a there there,

if there is utility to this, then
it's beholden on-- like, like the

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: on

Miriam: Yeah.

Yes.

Brad: for a

Miriam: Yes.

The more utility you see,

the more it's on you to fix it.

Brad: And that's, and that's the
thing that I think is just utterly

and completely just despicable when
it comes to those people at the very

top, is how they are to just, like,
talk about this stuff as, like, a

panacea, as, like, the end-all be-all,
and to do literally everything to

just skirt or just circumvent or,
like, not absorb or even receive any

Miriam: Right

Brad: of it.

It's like, that's so fucking shitty.

It's like, like you're, you're allowed
to say, "Yeah, we have something," and

like, "Yes, also these environmental
impacts," and, "Yes, all of, like,

these things are also true." And
like, "We, we want to do this."

Like, like that's, that's available.

That is an option.

But again, these people
have de-demonstrated again

and again and again and

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: that that isn't the case.

So it's like very clearly my, my hope
is that there is there-- that there

is room, like anything, when there's
three companies or whatever that are

kind of vying for something, that there
is like this ability for-- there is

room for people to say, "Here's the
nugget of the technology," and like

Miriam: Right

Brad: kind of do this in a way that
isn't fully reprehensible and whatever.

And that's the stuff that,
like, I want to see more of.

And, but, but yeah, as, as somebody
who's out there, like, kind of like

I am participating in this, but I
also like want to say like, yeah, I'm

t- continue to be uneasy about it,
especially with just feeling like I am

just kinda going, "Ah." Yeah, but it's--
I don't wanna dimini-- like it, it's,

it's a very interesting place to be,
to be like, kind of like crave almost

like the, like your perspective and
like other people that are like pretty

adamantly like opposed to it because
it's like like agree with all of it.

I just am like able to
like try to navigate

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: where I'm like, yeah, like, but
this thing did help me do this stuff.

And

Miriam: Sure

Brad: I'm seeing, I'm seeing, like, real
benefits, like, the most interesting

thing is I'm like, oh yeah, I'm,
like, doing it so that, like, I don't

have to do it in, like, the future.

I'm, like, filling in, like,
all, like, the little holes in my

foundation and then I'm at this place
where I'm like, "Cool, well, I have

all, like, the pieces that I need.

Like, I don't need to keep, like,
throwing myself at this thing." It's

like, it's almost, like, kinda like,
yeah, I know that doing a bug bomb to

get my-- the roaches out of my house-
Mm. it's a bad it's, it's not the best

for the environment or whatever, but
it's like a single-- a one-time use.

I don't know.

May-maybe I'm,

Miriam: Yeah.

I

mean,

Brad: I'm

Miriam: I

Brad: I'm trying not to, like, make,
like, excuses for it, but to, like,

literally, like, just sit in the
discomfort of this, like, place where

I'm, like, simultaneously seeing the
benefits from it, but also not trying

to tip over into the excusing a lot
of the, the crap that comes with it.

I don't know.

Miriam: it's difficult from my
perspective because the people who I

don't know, claim a nuanced view often
only express the, what they're getting

out of it and sort of defensively.

"But, but I'm getting these things
out of it." And I'm like, "Okay Great.

Cool.

Where is the part where you're fighting?

Where is the part where you're
saying it has to be different?

how come it's only those of us who are
like, "Mm, I don't, I don't need this"?

How come it's only us that are willing
to, be like, "This has to, this has

to be better. This has to be better
to the world and to other people"?

it's lonely out here seeing only,
the only critiques coming from

people who only have critiques.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

Miriam: that's, that's frustrating.

And it's, I think it particularly
frustrates me with developers.

I'm like, I'm like, I have seen my
entire job in this career has been,

has been steering clients away from
things that I think are dangerous.

Um, Has been like, I know that that's
what people expect, but that's bad,

and we shouldn't perpetuate it.

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: and to me, that's the whole
purpose of design and like, and like

an expertise in design, is that I
can look at something and be like,

"No, but that's harm- I know it helps
your bottom line, but it's harmful.

and we're not gonna, we're not gonna help
you perpetuate that just because it helps

your bottom line." And I feel like I see
that all, all through my life, just so

many things that would help my bottom line
on a scale from downright scams to, to not

quite as scammy, but sort of considered
normal, but sort of a little bit scammy,

Brad: Yeah,

Miriam: There's all sorts of like,
get rich quick and I can decide

not to do them, even though,

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: I don't know, they,
that would help me in some way.

I can be like, "Yeah, but at what
cost?" And I think, yeah, I think

as a designer, my question or my, my
facilitating with clients is always

around the like, "Yeah, nope, the
costs aren't worth it on that one.

Let's, let's steer you towards something
that is not a, a manipulative pattern.

Um, Let's steer you towards
more humane software.

how, how can we do that?" And so, then
it's absurd to me to see the industry go

like, "Well, I know that there's problems,
but it helped me in a way." And I'm like,

"What, what's, what's even our job here?

What are we, what are we doing
if that's as far as we can get?"

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: I don't understand it.

Brad: Well, and it's-- And, and I
think that you're touching on it

really well in saying it's like, oh,
there's, there's like the bottom line

as like the, the goal, but then you
also said like the word like humane.

And whenever people talk about like,
"Oh yeah, here are these like things

like th-this stuff will like help
build a better world," and like,

and it's like, well, okay, what does
it look like to apply this stuff

to building a more humane world?

And like, what specifically does that
look like, and who's doing that work?

And, and I th- 'cause I agree with you
that it's like when you see kind of

people that are to it or, or saying
like, "I'm not going to cross that

line," and like, you see like that,
the sort of critiquing criticism

rightly coming from those people.

I think that this is where like you
have like the coalitions people that

are like, oh… 'Cause the, risk with
that is that it's like, oh, well,

people, those people don't understand
the good stuff that it can get, and

so therefore they get written off as
like, they just like don't understand.

Meanwhile, like there's a lot of really
brilliant technologists and designers

and people that, that do the grain
of what this technology is without

having to sort of like g- have the,
the first-hand experience with it.

But I also think that there is like
that coalition with like the people

who are using it, but also that still
have a soul, I guess, and, and, and

are like, "Yes," like, "We, we care
about this and wanna sort of like steer

it in the right direction." And like
I'm, I'm very grateful to know some of

those people that are like, "Oh, cool.

Here's what I could do with like a local
model," or like, "Here's like where this

is going," and like, "Oh, this-- If this
is like how this stuff is trending, here's

how we could peel this stuff away to like

Miriam: Right

Brad: like some of the stuff." I'm like,
"Hell yeah." Like, that's, that's good

stuff, and I like wanna see more of it.

I, I don't have enough of like a grasp
on like the, the technology of it, so

like kinda like downstream from that.

But just like standards of

Miriam: yeah.

Brad: I kinda see like what you're
doing, but like I'm, I'm happy to like

follow suit like when these like kind
of saner and more humane alternatives

and stuff like arise, and I wanna
like do my part to like kinda help

promote that and

Miriam: I want people

Brad: so.

Miriam: questions like, "Could,
could a smaller model that's not

ba- built on surveillance do this?

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Miriam: could, could I script it?" I think
somebody on our team had this idea of,

like, a website that's like, "Can I script
it?" Uh, And you put in, like, what you

were gonna ask the chatbot to do, and,
like, if you can write a Python script

that does it, write the Python script.

Like, that's … It's, we don't need
to always, we don't need to always

use the most expensive thing just
because it has the least friction.

yeah, that's not the
world I want to live in.

I understand that there are advantages
to mass surveillance, mass policing,

and mass incarceration, and I still
think those things are wrong, and

I don't wanna be part of them.

I don't think the trade-offs are worth
it and I'm gonna keep saying that.

And I don't, I don't like a world where
we go, "Well, but there's something…

it sometimes helps, and therefore,
we can brush aside everything else.

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: it helped… I got
mine." Uh, that's, uh, it's

n- it's not the world I want.

So I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna keep questioning it.

Brad: And there's, there's certain
things it's like you'd really have

to… what's been described as like
the original sin was like it just

kinda eating the internet without

anybody's permission, and then
just being like, " Well, this

Miriam: Oops.

Brad: come at me.

Yeah.

Oops." Right?

And it's like, well, that happened,
and there ain't no going back.

You know, there's no
time machine for that.

But then there are, like,

Miriam: Yeah, but

there

like, there is like putting
these companies out of business.

That's a thing.

That's a thing, and it's a
thing we're allowed to do.

We're allowed societally to do that.

And I mean, like, I can't just
do that on my own, and you

can't just do that on your own.

But we can as a society be like,
"No, that's out of bounds."

We do that all the time.

I mean,

we

we have, no trespassing signs.

Like, that's much more absurd.

But like we can say things
are out of bounds societally.

We can do that.

And we don't have to be like, "Just
because you have all the money, y- I

guess you get to make the rules now."

Brad: yeah, but yeah, like, so,
so, so there's that and, and 100%,

even though that happened, that's
not like, like a forgivable thing.

And it's like, yeah, like let's,
let's-- here's bottles that aren't

that way and, and let's, let's
get out there and promote them.

It-- much like the, you know, the
Fire foxes of the world and, and the

rest of them and stuff like that.

It's like there, there are these things
and these abilities to like kind of create

these, these alternate structures that
like give you the same benefit for--

Miriam: Mm-hmm

Brad: a lot of like the crap
that comes along for the ride.

And then there, and then there are
these things that are just like, okay,

well, how about let's not like take
these environmental costs as like,

as a given, and are there things
that can be done to pressure things?

Miriam: href

Brad: there is infrastructure, a, a data
center exists or it doesn't, and some

of those things even are not binaries.

It's like, well, what does it look like
to actually like go, what if these things

were not just like these coming in under a

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: company and like just suddenly
just being erected with a big middle

Miriam: Yeah,

Brad: But what if this was
built in a more communal way?

And what if like

people actually cared about this?

Like it's, it's like,

Miriam: Yeah,

Brad: it, it

Miriam: I think that's interesting

Brad: the all or nothing, the,

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: thing.

It's like, like there's these

Miriam: But also

Brad: it's like walk it back to, to
like more reasonable like things,

and that requires like these
companies actually like having to be

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: and that's happening now where it's

Miriam: What I s-

Brad: things are-- they're,
they're, they're being forced

to be confronted with like

communities that are like, Hey,
yeah, we're not going to take this."

And they're

like, "Ugh," like… It's like the

Miriam: Yeah, I think,

Brad: of like dissent

Miriam: yeah, I think, I think it's
interesting to ask those questions, but

I think it's also good to remember that,
like, we constantly stack up current

harms against hypothetical gains in the
future and act like the hypothetical

gains outweigh actual current harms.

And I, I get frustrated that society-wide,
not just around this one thing, but

sort of like, I mean, it's a little
bit trickle-down theory is that, right?

It's like, "If we give the billionaires
all of our money now, maybe it will

come back to us." Which is sort of
shown to be absurd over and over again.

But,

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: we have to be able to say,
No, actually, the harm is current and,

and has to be addressed." And then we
can start talking about, like, once

we've talked about ways to reduce the
harm, then we can talk about ways we

want to achieve those, those gains
and, and actually put focus on them.

Like,

until, until, s- nobody's using a large
language model to cure cancer, whatever.

But, like, until, Like, show me
your work on curing cancer and show

me how this work comes out of it.

I, I wanna know that there's actually
a direct connection here, and we're

talking about something real, and we're
not just, we're not just saying, "But

but maybe, maybe someday," and saying,
you know, "Maybe someday we'll solve

the climate part." So, like, we know…

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: is another thing.

L- like, w- we regularly point to AI
and be like, "Maybe it could solve

this problem," and it's like, we
already know how to solve that problem.

We know how to deal with climate change.

Like, the problem we're having is
not that we don't know what to do.

Brad: Yeah,

Miriam: that people are refusing to do it.

Brad: Yeah,

Miriam: and I see, I see
AI as a part of that.

It's, it's just people again
being like, "Nah, we can't

do that climate change thing.

We can't do that climate change thing
because it, it writes my Python 10 minutes

faster." And I'm like, " I don't c- I
don't, I do not fucking care about you

writing your Python 10 minutes faster."

Like, it, that is not
my concern in the world.

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: I w- I want to stop going
out in 100-degree weather every day.

What are we doing here?

let's solve the actual problem instead
of inventing new things that we think

hypothetically might give us a new answer
to a question that we've known the answer

to for y- what are we, what are we doing?

What are we doing?

And I know the answer to why can't we.

It's, it's profit.

Profit is why can't we.

But

Brad: Well, yeah, and, and that's,
that's a damn-- It's a freaking

hard thing to, up against.

But I think that you're rightly, I think,
sort of pointing out there's like the

collective action that all like kind of
is, is coordinated to its power o-over us.

And, and I think that, that's like a
very important point to, to take to

heart, which is, it's like, yes, like
what power structures are we giving

our, our money to and like what are
we like kind of pushing on and stuff.

And, and I also think your-- what you said
is, is also very potent, which is there's

kind of… storytelling creatures, right?

And, and we, we get
moved by narratives, and

the the narratives of those kind of like
wishful thinking like, "In the future,

you know, we'll all have flying cars and
universal basic income." I think that it's

right to sort of flip it on its head and
say, like, "Here are these thresholds that

if you earn, if you're able to demonstrate
the cancer-curing stuff," or like, "If we,

if we like kind of get to this point," or
if like, if you're able to sort of say,

"Here's," you said, "all of these things
that were spelled out that need to be

done in the climate change department."

And if you're saying that this
could help with that, if you help

that this is like moving the
needle here, well, then that

unlocks maybe more, you know.

So, so yeah.

So like

unregulated, unfettered, like

Miriam: yeah

Brad: based on like wishful
thinking, that, that can't, that

Miriam: Well, and also we have to be
able to separate, we have to be able to

separate the technology from the products.

We have to be able to say like, "Yes,
scientists are using machine learning."

That's not the same as-- like, they're
not using ChatGPT to fold proteins.

those are different things, and we
can't just be like, "Well, it's all AI."

It's not.

It's, it's not all the same thing.

They're doing very different things
with very different technologies

that we've just arbitrarily given
this shared name to and whatever.

Uh, Maybe that name is
a useful shorthand, but,

like, one doesn't excuse the other.

We don't need, we don't need mass
surveillance to train a model

on proteins and learn something.

Like, that's-- these are different
things at different scales.

I mean, it's what I appreciated about
some of the, like Timnit Gebru and,

and Emily Bender and all of them.

They're, they were AI researchers.

They are AI researchers.

Their whole critique
was like drop the large.

The l- the large is unnecessary.

These tools are useful.

The large is unnecessary.

It's just surveillance.

It's just centralizing.

Brad: Centralization, yeah.

Miriam: And we don't, we don't need
to bring that along with the benefits

of, of the underlying technology.

And I find that a really useful…
I mean, I think also of like,

I connect all these things.

Like, I think about prison
abolitionists, you know, and the ar-

the argument is we should imagine a
world where we don't need prisons.

And then you might say like, "Okay, well,
there's some problems with that," right?

Um, like, what do we do about these cases?

And they're like, "Great, those are good
questions." But, like, what if we start

by imagining a world where we don't need
prisons, and then every decision we make

is attempting to move towards that world?

And, and we just slowly move towards
it in whatever small steps we can.

Uh, and we're not saying that we have to,
like, shut down every prison today and

everybody is just walking around suddenly.

Like, we understand that we need
other things to deal with conflict and

deal with people that do harm, and we
have to find other structures, right?

But, it's sort of a, in my mind,
it's this, it's this breaking down

of revolutionary versus knob…
What's the other term that people

use for just fiddling with the knobs

Brad: i-

Miriam: of

Brad: or, or like,

Miriam: or,

Brad: I

Miriam: or, or, Th-there's a,
there's other options here.

We can, we can imagine something
revolutionary, and we can just

make sure that every small step
we take is towards that goal.

And that's where I look at AI and I'm
like, it's, I, I don't see it as taking

steps towards a goal I believe in.

I see uses that could be
handy as side quests, sure.

I don't see it moving us towards
the goal I'm interested in.

I want to solve those problems
too, but, like, we're designers.

We can think of other ways to do it.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

Miriam: we don't have to narrow down
and be like, "Well, somebody solved it.

Somebody solved it.

Now, now we just do the thing
that they, that they sold us.

It's done.

It's over

Brad: I love how you, you said it.

It's, it's that, and it-- to use, sorry,
like the, like corporate, like client

services speak, it's like you have
to plant that flag in the sand,

like off in the distance, and
then go, "We're going that way."

And

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: what you're describing is not
the job of like the AI companies,

although they very much should
have way more of a conscience.

But it's, th-this, this is where
politics and just like societal in

general, like, like society in
general, have to go, "Here's the

kind of future that we want to see."

Miriam: Right.

Right.

Brad: called leadership.

That's called vision.

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: like, here's what, here's
what a more just, a more humane,

a, a better world looks like.

And to paint

Miriam: Alright

Brad: and then you collectively
start taking steps towards that.

And then

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: there are, there are guardrails,
there are regulations, there are

rules, there are laws, there's are like
whatever, all of like those other things.

But, but more importantly, not-- forget
about like the laws and the punitive

side of it, but just the incentives and
the, the, the picture of, of a hope and

going, "Hey, it's better over here."

And that's

why I get so frustrated with
like, literally like any political

discussion because it's so devoid of

Miriam: Right

Brad: long-term vision, any long-term
thinking, any long-term like anything,

that it's just like, it's all just
so petty and so just like, what, how,

what mood did I wake-- It's,
it just feels so childish.

Miriam: and it's

so,

Brad: like,

where's the thing?

Like, where's the thing that just is like,

"
Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: at us.

We're the most advanced species
supposedly, that has all of

these materials in front of us.

We have nothing but and riches
and technologies and v-vehicles

Miriam: the far side of the moon.

Yeah Yeah, yeah.

Brad: are we

Miriam: Yeah,

Brad: are we

Miriam: but I think, I think part
of it is a, like, a fractioning of

us, and then, like, we don't see
our place in the power structure.

So then we go like, "Well, here's
the things I've got. How do I reduce

friction in my own life with the
tools that are in front of me?"

And I get that instinct, and also,
I think things keep getting worse

if we, if we're just all trying to
remove personal frictions without

accounting for the externalities.

Like, that, that just takes us constantly
downhill, and we don't see a way out

unless we, we have to envision a way
out, and we have to envision a world

where there is some friction in our
lives because that's part of what it

means to collaborate, and that's part of
what it means to be part of a society.

And I, I guess this is, you
know, trying to pull it all back

around to, to where we started.

Like, to me, that is the
collaborative thing, right?

It's that I couldn't build
these shows on my own.

I couldn't imagine them on my own.

What gets me excited about a
performance is when it's something

I couldn't have imagined.

Like, we got there by all of us imagining
different things and then figuring out how

they fit together and, and, like, building
something together and not just following

the rules or what was given to us, but,
like, each of us bringing our personal

wild selves and imagining something new.

And I'm like, "We can
do this with the world."

This is a thing we can do.

This is-- And this is specifically
supposed to be our expertise in tech.

This is supposed to be the
expertise that we bring, is

like, the world can be better.

We can imagine something better, and
we can not just accept what came, but

we can, we can invent something else.

And how is that industry looking at a
tool and going like, "Well, I don't know.

Guess we're stuck with it"?

What are we talking about?

Like, we're not stuck with it.

We know how to, we know
how to build tools too.

Brad: Yeah.

Miriam: can imagine better
tools, and we can build them.

So yeah, I don't get mad at people
sometimes using a chatbot or

whatever if they find it whatever.

I d- Like, that's not-- We're
not here for purity politics.

But I do get mad at developers
who act like we're not developers

who act like we have to accept
what was given to us as the truth.

I guess I'm a little-- I j-just--
It struck me, me and Sandra,

the Outbird, one of the Outbird
designers we went to a meetup.

This was years ago, and we walked
in a little bit late, and there

was a presentation happening, and
the person on stage was saying,

" Well, design has been solved.

Facebook solved it, so now we're just
rearranging the pieces." And I feel

like that's where we are as an industry,
is like we've accepted that there's

like a right, there's a right answer.

Somebody else figures it out.

It's backed by data, and I, I come in and
I fee-- I'm like, I think that data is,

I think that data is just some bullshit.

I think

Brad: Yeah

Miriam: somebody just walked
around with a tape measure and

then claimed that I should care.

and I, I just don't believe this.

I, I can't believe our
industry is acting like this

Brad: here's my attempt too
to pull all of this together.

I think that your How you framed
ability to sort of like teach and

facilitate and sort of ultimately
like empower other people to just like

the, the creative power and, you know,
agency that, that they have, that

is, that is really
that's the facilitation.

And, and that's, I think, like

what our, what our industry needs
right now is people like you and

hopefully I try to do my part to
like help people understand how

much power and agency they have,

Miriam: Right

Brad: have to just sort of like
accept what's handed to them.

It's like you're a creative professional.

Like you , you

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: to, to imagine a different world
and that, and that we can like make

decisions and that you actually have…
When we talk about design having a seat

at the table, it's like you, you exercise
that by saying, "Hey, let's not do that.

Let's do this other thing i-instead."
Or, "What if we did this thing that

none of us have been thinking about?"

Or like, "What questions
aren't we answering?" Or like,

Miriam: Right.

Right

Brad: we have so much freedom
and agency and ability

Miriam: Right.

Brad: capacity, we just need to
start actually exercising it.

And

I think that that's, that's-- these
are the, the things that I, I hope,

like with this show and just like
beyond, I like w- I want more people

to understand that they have this

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: I, I'm sure you get, y-you get it
as well, just like you were describing

earlier, like the people who co-
approach you at the market saying like,

"Oh, I'm not creative like that," or

Miriam: Right, right

Brad: the only difference between and
them is that you're able to overcome

that, that like whatever weird external
voice, it-- that thing, "I can't do

that," and then you just do it anyways.

And wouldn't you know,
then you end up doing

Miriam: Then you can do it.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

But,

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: that

Miriam: Yeah

Brad: lesson, that same lesson that
comes to just like self-expression,

which is a great lesson in and

Miriam: Right

Brad: also applies to our ability to enact

Miriam: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brad: organizational
structures, within like weird

power dynamics, within our social groups,
within our families, within everything.

Like we are, we are-- You have you

Miriam: Yeah, you're

Brad: to, to sort of like
be directional in like

Miriam: yeah.

Yeah

Brad: If you're frustrated with
things, if you're just like,

"I, I'm scared, I'm not sure.

I d- if I speak up, if I raise my hand,
like I'm gonna get…" It's like we,

we have the ability to just say, "Hey,
maybe we should do it this other way."

And people go,

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: right.

Okay.

Miriam: Yeah, totally.

Totally.

I think, yeah, I mean, I feel like, I
feel like that's maybe the central point

of my career is, like, you can-- I know,
I know sometimes it's gonna be harder.

You're gonna be picking the harder
path, but you can make it up.

You have agency.

You're allowed to take the harder path.

Sometimes it's really rewarding
to take the harder path.

Just avoiding friction is
not, is not the happy path.

Push, push on things.

Believe in things.

know the world that you want
and know the careers that you

want and claim your agency.

Brad: Hell yeah.

That's a great way, that's a great
way, that's a great exclamation

point to, to end it on, I think.

So, we did talk at least a little
bit about music through the lens

of, of your theater company,
but what, what music do you

want more people to know about?

Miriam: Yeah, that was
an interesting question.

I haven't been listening to a
lot of really new music lately.

Like, I haven't been discovering
things except, like, old things, like

discovering the Funkadelics, and you're
like, "More people don't need to know

about the Funkadelics." Th- the plenty
of people know about them or whatever.

So that's not my answer.

There's lots of bands like that,
that I'm like, "Oh, well, I

discovered them recently," but
they're not recent discoveries.

And I didn't discover them that recently.

But,

Brad: should listen to P-Funk though, so

just straight up.

Miriam: yeah,

Brad: me.

Miriam: just Megabrain, Megabrain,
you start there and work your way out.

yeah, so then I was thinking, "Well,
I've got some friends that I think

make really excellent music, so
you should maybe check them out."

I think particularly Emily Rogers.

Check out Emily Rogers.

Haunting just, just excellent.

But yeah

Brad: What, like

Miriam: not cheerful.

Brad: Nah.

Miriam: I mean, they're just, they're
just, uh… She has this beautiful

voice, and she's an excellent guitarist,
and I think it's maybe her partner

that's mainly playing with her and
a, a few other people 'cause there's

a, there's drums and other stuff.

yeah, it's these-- it's just sort
of beautiful, haunting, sad songs.

I knew her in college, high
school and college, and she

was playing, like, folk music.

Like, one person with an acoustic guitar,
folk music, pretty straightforward,

and I was like, "Sure, you got a
great voice. You're g- you're good."

And then, like, I heard her several
years later putting out these just

amazing haunting songs that just
sounded n- nothing like… I mean, like,

clearly inspired by her, her experience
and her history and whatever, but

Brad: Amazing.

Miriam: a, a unique voice.

So I-- Yeah, check out,
check out Emily Rogers.

She's great

Brad: I love it.

I love it.

Amazing.

Miriam: playing around Pittsburgh.

She's in Pittsburgh, so maybe

Brad: ba- Yeah, I was gonna
ask 'cause, like, is she,

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: Is

Miriam: Last I talked to
her, she was in Pittsburgh.

I don't know of her moving
out of Pittsburgh, so

Brad: amazing.

Well,

Miriam: she's still there

Brad: Well, hell yeah.

I will definitely-- I'm going to

Miriam: Yeah.

Brad: also trying to like bring
together like in like one big

like kinda playlist and stuff for

Miriam: yeah.

yeah.

Oh, cool

Brad: Well, well, yeah,
but she's local to me.

I, I was like, "Oh, is
she in Denver?" But, so it

Miriam: Yeah, I was just looking.

I d- I don't see any super recent albums
since, like, 2021, so I, I haven't heard

what she's doing in the last couple years.

But I really love her stuff

Brad: Amazing.

Amazing.

And where can people follow along
with, with you and, and your work and

across all of your different creative

Miriam: Yeah, that's a hard question.

I mean, you know, uh, Oddbird for web
development, uh, that's oddbird.net,

and grapefruitlab.com is the theater
company, uh, including our prison work.

I have miriamsuzanne.com, which I
every once in a while try to remember

to post something but I'm distracted
by a lot of different things.

Teacup Gorilla is the band.

and to me they're all the
same, and they all, they all

integrate, they all play together.

Brad: Yeah.

It's, it's collectively your,
your authentic self, so.

Miriam: Yeah, exactly

Brad: but then also quick plug
because, like, we've been chatting

a little bit 'cause you're also,
you created some courses some CSS

courses, so I wanna plug that too

Miriam: Yeah, so courses.oddbird.net, and
it's linked from the Oddbird website, too.

But I have a Poetic CSS course.

I'm still in the middle of filming it.

I-it's-- yeah, again, it's
that, like, that teaching thing.

I just find it so exciting
to, yeah, figure out how to

explain these concepts in CSS.

It's really like whether you're writing
the CSS or reviewing the CSS, a lot of

people are out there trying to cobble
together, like, these independent

properties that they've heard of, right?

And every article covers one property,
and you do your best to sort of guess

how they're all gonna fit together.

And this course

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Miriam: is about how
they all fit together.

It's really-- it's like
a systems view of CSS.

How was it designed?

how-- what is the, the mental model
that the working group has of CSS?

Like, what's-- how do you view CSS
as a consistent whole, so you're not

guessing at properties to throw in?

You understand what the
system is how things interact.

Like CSS has timing to it.

Like, things happen before other
things and if you understand those

timings, a lot of the day-to-day
gotchas just become like, oh, that's

just computed values inherit, and
they inherit before variables resolve.

And if we understand the order that these
things happen and how it's all supposed

to work as a system, we don't have to, we
don't have to guess over and over until

something seems to work in our browser.

I'm not teaching you every
word in the dictionary.

I'm teaching you how to structure a
poem how to use language that you need

Brad: I, I've learned so
much about CSS from you.

So it's like, what's weird, what's weird
to say is, like, I've been writing CSS

for more than half of my life, and so

Miriam: She's…

Brad: who I,

Miriam: Me too, probably.

Yeah.

Brad: is it weird?

But I'm like, I've had
to unlearn a bunch of

Miriam: Ja

Brad: and, and I, I owe a lot to you
for kinda like dismantling a lot of

like the, the kind of like old ways
of doing things, and it's like through

your writing and your conference talks
and now your courses, it's like I'm,

I'm able to kinda be like, "Oh, okay,
this is gonna go easier because this,

this language has come such a long way."

Miriam: Right

Brad: so like I would recommend it
for people like, like just learning

it, like, and to like learn it

right, kinda right out of the gate.

But like for me, old dogs learning
new tricks are like just like

more with the grain of how
the stuff ought to be written.

Like, a-and that's, that's, I think,
like, a real testament to you kinda like

straddling that line between being able
to, like, operate at that, like, spec

level, but also being a practitioner.

So, so thank you.

And, and everyone, you should
definitely buy these courses.

Miriam: Please do.

I would love to be able to make more,
and it's a, it's a scary time out

there for people creating courses.

So if it's something you're
interested in, it's something

I'm excited to help you learn.

And we've got, like, a Discord
channel where you can ask questions.

Come to me if you have questions.

That's great.

I just want, I want, I want people not to
be scared of CSS in the way that I think

a lot of people have been scared of CSS.

I want you to know that
it's really learnable.

It's really manageable if
you learn how to manage it.

And, and there's sort of,
there's no, there's no shortcuts.

Like, I think that's, you know, part
of this conversation, is that, like,

everybody's looking for shortcuts, and I
just don't believe that shortcuts exist.

So, like, if you want a garden without
weeds, you have to weed the garden.

That's the, that's how you get there.

And the same is true with
CSS or JavaScript or Python

or whatever you're writing.

You have to learn, learn how to do it and

then, and then you can.

But, uh, yeah, and I'm
excited down the road.

Like, if this one goes well,
I'd be excited to dive into,

like, more narrow topics.

But I sort of realized, like, if I do a
layout course, I still need to teach you

first how it all fits together, and if
I do an animation course, I still have

to teach you how it all fits together.

If I do a colors course, et
cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

So, I wanted this one out first.

I wanted to answer the question,
like, how does it all, how does

it all… What's the system?

How do we build?

What's the systems built into it, and
then how do we build systems around it?

Naming and organizing
conventions, all that.

And then, yeah.

Yeah, if enough of you buy this one,
I get to make another one that's,

like, grids or something, you know?

Like, when to use grid versus Flexbox
or those sorts of more in the, in the

weeds of particular features courses.

I would love to do that.

Brad: Yeah.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Well, well, thank you.

Thanks again

Miriam: Yeah.

Thank you

Brad: all of this.

So, yeah, until next time.

Hopefully I get to see you in person soon.

It's

Miriam: Yeah, that'd be great

Brad: but all right.

Well, take care.

Thanks so much for

Miriam: All right.

Brad: thanks everybody for listening

Miriam: Thank you