I Feel Like I Have Lightning in My Fingertips with Ridd

Brad: Hey, Ridd!

Ridd: Hey, Brad.

How you doing?

Brad: doing good.

let's jump right in.

What, what has you waking
up excited these days?

Ridd: Man, I'm having more
fun as a designer right now

than I ever have in my career.

Like, I've been waking up every
day and thinking about digital

interfaces on various types
of devices for so long, right?

Until you kind of get into a groove
where I know what my profession is,

I'm good at it, I've put in the reps,
I understand how to think about it.

And then I feel like in the last six
months even, everything's kind of

just been bazooka'd, and then I'm
figuring out how to like reassemble it.

But it's really, really fun, and
I'm able to do things and own things

that I didn't think I'd ever have
the right or ability to play with.

And so I write so much code
every day, It's fun, man.

I'm having so much fun.

Like, I'm, I'm, I'm… My days end, and
I'm like, "I wish it wasn't over." Like,

I, I just, I wake up so excited to get
on my computer and build software, and

I didn't think that I would be living
in this state of mind or state of world.

Um, it's a blast.

I'm, I'm… It's a blast.

Brad: that's amazing.

That's amazing.

So, it just feels like you're like,
"Okay, cool. This is just a, a bazooka

of, of opportunity." I like that word.

Ridd: Totally.

Brad: verb.

Ridd: There's probably an, a
more eloquent way to say that.

Brad: No, that's fine.

That's fine.

something happened in the last six
months even, or six weeks or six

Ridd: I can code now.

It's like simple as that, you know?

Like I knew a little bit.

I knew enough to be, to like
annoy engineers with the random

PR or like mess around with some
Tailwind stuff, but now I'm like-

Brad: Yeah.

Ridd: be able to build multiple
features today, and it will

be ev- exactly as I want them.

Every single pixel, every single
animation, every single easing

curve, every single hover state,
everything will be 100%, like, up

to me to decide and execute against.

And for every other time that I've
played in code, you know, you have

this, this taste execution gap that
is the Grand Canyon as somebody who's

been designing for a long time but
has a very limited set of front-end

skills, and now it's just kinda gone.

And every time I feel a new one, I'm
able to intentionally point, like, Claude

and be like, "I wanna close this gap.

Let's talk about it.

Like, how do I close this gap?" And
then I can normally get there, you

know, either by identifying the right
resources, or I'll make some kind of

a skill, or a lot of times I'm just,
like, learning more specific, um, uh,

higher leverage language to use to
get what I want out of the models.

Like, I just… Man, I don't
know if you feel this, Brad, but,

like, I feel, I feel so powerful
in a way that's really exciting.

Like, I, like, maybe overconfidence,
maybe the pendulum will swing back to

a more healthy spot, but right now I
feel like I'm shooting lightning tips.

I, I feel like I'm shooting lightning
out of my fingertips, and that I can

do anything, and nobody can stop me.

Brad: I think, yeah, th- you're, you're,
you're touching on a whole lot of things.

There is… I think that the
learning how to learn has always

been a really important skill, I

think, to cultivate.

And then I think what you're
describing as that, here's this Grand

Canyon that, couldn't historically
Evel Knievel your way over

Ridd: Yes.

Now that's a verb.

Brad: and now it's like, oh, yes,
that, that chasm is a lot smaller, and

that jump is, is actually possible.

And even that jump, you're able to
reevaluate and you're like, "Eh, there's,

there's still some space here," or
you bump into something and you don't

feel like, "Well, I'm stuck, and I'm
gonna spend, like, the next, like,

five hours just kind of troubleshooting

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: some weird obtuse issue
that you have no business knowing

Ridd: Yeah,

Brad: And yeah, it's… And, and, and
that allows you as a single person

realize the ideas that are in your head

Ridd: Yeah,

Brad: out into the world.

Ridd: you're just like,
you're less reliant on people.

And I, I do think there's an element of
I, I wanna be equally or, or even more

so collaborative with others, and I think
I'm still figuring out what collaboration

looks like in this world where y- you
kinda feel like you can do everything.

But I mean, I, I can…

The things that I w- was good at,
obviously AI is an amplifier, but

then the things that I am curious
about, but I don't necessarily

have even the foundational skill
set, I'm able to do something.

You know, I'm able to get something.

Like, I'm a I'm not an artist, you know?

Like, that's not me.

I, I can't really draw things that well.

I'm not-- I, I can't s- visualize, more
artistic, like, animations, compositions.

Like, I'm a technical designer.

I like thinking in code,
in rules, in systems.

Like, that makes so much sense to me.

But if you're like, "You know,
make a nice motion composition

for this," whatever you're making,
like, I freak out a little bit.

But, but I'm able to get to,
like, a, a pretty decent bas-

I, I'll give you a quick story.

Like,

Brad: Yep.

Ridd: two nights ago, uh, I got
a, a sneak peek of, uh, Jitter AI.

Jitter is like this motion
tool that I really like.

By the way, it's the
best flavor of Waterloo.

And I was-- I'm playing with this thing.

I'm not a motion designer.

I have no real skills, period.

Like, in period.

But they released this feature where
you could just describe something,

and then it gives a set of parameters
in the sidebar where you can control

this animation and maybe, like,
export it as a shader or something.

my starting spot was I didn't
even type anything into Jitter.

I just typed into Claude, and I was
like, "I have no idea what I should

do here. Like, how fun would it be
to create something that feels like

it's underwater, though? Like, what do
I-- H-how do I even think about what

the prompt should be?" 'Cause I don't
have any language for that, you know?

And it's, like, going through,
and Claude's like, "Well, you

could go in this direction or
this direction or this direction."

I'm like, "Oh, that's kinda cool.
Let's do that one." And then I

realize, oh, the language that I
need is this idea of, like, caustics,

like the water reflections, like
the light reflections on water.

That's like the ripple effect
that you would see in a pool.

I didn't have that word in my
vocabulary, but Claude gave it to me.

And then it gave me the rabbit
hole to explore within that world.

And now all of a sudden I'm getting
a bunch of really high-fidelity

prompts, and I'm just putting them in.

I'm like, that's cool.

That's cool.

Whoa, I love that one.

What if we tweaked it this way?

And then in, like, I don't know, nine
minutes, I have something that I love,

that there's just no way that I wouldn't
even have known what tool to use to

make something like that, you know?

Brad: Yep.

Yep.

It's, uh, you're describing and you
even use it, it's like onomatopoeia.

It's, we're now in a place where
we're able to be like, "It would

be really cool if we went sh-"

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: pow, or if we had this go
zap, or if we had this be like aw.

And, and what's fascinating about
that is that we understand, as human

beings, those connotations, right?

We understand boom, splat, pow.

that's been a part of our, you know,
comic book, uh, uh, history and

all of that stuff and, and beyond.

But that applies to all modalities, right?

And what's very, very fascinating
about this is that we're, we now have

these new tools that help us connect
the dots between this very, very,

very strange and- language and then
connect it to the technical dots of

how to actually realize this stuff
in, in, through, through software.

Or, or through whatever.

And a- again, this, this applies,
you could do, like, the same

thing for, for music and,

Ridd: Totally.

Brad: want this to feel more bitey," or,
"I wa- I want this to feel smoother,"

"I want this to feel…" whatever.

And it's really, really fascinating to be
able to be like, "I, I have a vision, or

a mental idea, a mental model of what I
want this to be in my head." And you're

now able to be like, "Uh, let me see it.

Ridd: And, and sometimes it's
like sometimes you're in pursuit

of specificity or like the, the,
the correct language, you know?

Obviously software is-- Music would
work the same way though, right?

Like there's a… Oh my gosh.

I mean, that's a deep rabbit hole, the
language associated that, with music that

is completely invisible to ninety-nine
point nine percent of the population.

Obviously, if you can grasp that
language, you're able to achieve much

more specific results, and sometimes
it's like, how can I use the LLM to

capitalize on the little nugget of, uh…
Like I know like a Dorian scale kinda

has like a minor blues feel, but I'm sure
there's like 40 other words associated

with that that I don't understand and
like can you just help me find them so

I can give more specific directions?

And then sometimes it's like the
complete opposite where it's like,

can you make this feel a little bit
more like splashing in a puddle as

the sun is finally coming out on a
rainy day, and then just hit enter and

like, what's gonna happen, you know?

And like both ends of the spectrum
could be really useful and interesting.

Brad: And tha- and that's right.

And it's, and it's kind of like, what
are you, what are you intending on doing?

And I think that that's, that's really
been the thing that's stripped all of

this stuff away and gets into the, the
nature of, of design, which is just like,

well, what are you intending on doing
in this specific moment in time, right?

'Cause your intentions change over time.

Sometimes you want to explore, sometimes
you want to just get a feel for something.

Sometimes you wanna, you know, go
into left field and do something

just radically different.

And sometimes you're like, "Eh,
no, the, I need this to, to be

going towards something that feels
concrete and familiar," whatever.

But it's an area that I'm very interested
in picking at with, with people because I

think a lot of There's still a lot
of kind of flat, uh, understanding or

misunderstanding around a lot of this,
and I do think that you need to go through

it, you need to experience it in order to
kinda cognitively understand, like, "Oh,

Ridd: Totally.

Brad: I can do anything now, huh?"

Ridd: And I think we've-- When you're
on the sidelines, I think the natural

vantage point that we or maybe
artificially create for ourselves is

like we just inflate the a-amount of
knowledge required to do something

with all these new foreign tools.

Like I, I was just… I had coffee.

I, I live in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

Spoiler, no designers live
in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

Like I'm so-- This is
not a tech hub, you know?

So I went to a coffee
shop a couple weeks ago.

I saw a guy working on a, the
design system for a very well-known

company in Figma, and I'm like,

Brad: hello

Ridd: "What? Are you
serious?" The guy, uh, yeah.

It was like he's got
over-ear headphones on.

He's so cl- he might as well have
a giant do not disturb sign on

his back, and I walked right over
and I was like, "D-t, t-- Hey,

Brad: Yeah.

Ridd: p- my name's Rid, you know.

You wanna do a … Do you
wanna talk like about anything

related to what you're doing?

You know." So anyway, we, we start talking
and, uh, you know, longtime principal

designer working at a, a well-known
agency and, uh, moved here from Denver.

I also moved here from Denver.

It's like, "Cool. Let's
be friends," you know.

So I got coffee with him two days
ago, and it was like the let's, you

know, the actual meet and greet.

And in the role that he was in, he'd
been working as a principal designer at

this agency for like five or six years
and had zero incentive, push, and really

motivation to do anything out of the norm.

So he, he was working as of two weeks
ago, the exact same way that he has

been working probably since twenty
eighteen when Figma came out, you know.

And he's wants to get a new job,
and so we were kinda talking

about like the job market.

I, I have this like talent network
and a really interesting window

into the job market as a result, and
so he's just asking me questions,

and I'm just giving him answers.

And the fact is a lot of the answers
are people are looking for- designers

and generally people who are AI curious
and trying new things and, you know,

thinking about workflows and, and he's
like, "Can you just…" He's like, "Is

there a course that you could send me
to get started?" And I'm like, " No.

Like, we're gonna do this right now.

Like, get out your laptop," you know?

Like, "We can get-- We can do this in 10
minutes, and you can get enough to start."

And, uh, and then he texted me yesterday.

He's-- He has a band, a local band.

They do like little house shows, and
he has a website on… And he texted

me this fully interactive v- um, music
player that he built for his website.

It's absolutely gorgeous.

It plays all of his own songs.

He has all these fun little
scrubbing interactions.

You can change the, what the
visualizer looks like, and

it took him like a few hours.

And he's like, "I, I get it now.
Like I… What?" Like, and you can't

look at the world the same way after
you build something like that, that

is specific for you and your set
of interests, solves a real problem

that you had, and now he's hooked.

And it's like, how do you get more
people that experience, you know?

Without being like,

Brad: Yep.

Ridd: me, please, I promise.

It's really easy.

Just try it," you know?

Brad: I, that's beautiful, and I
think it's especially beautiful

because it is a, bazooking of his
creative potential as a musician.

It is facilitating his creativity,
his band, his furthering his

band's, uh, ability to their
self-expression out into the world.

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: that is very, very difficult
because that also lives, and I, and

I'm always very careful talk about this
because it's, like, part of the, the

broader cultural conversation around
this is still on original sin, which

is, yeah, yeah, this stuff ate all of
our shit, and now it's able-- And that's

what's giving, allowing us, uh, to, to
have these kinds of superpowers now.

And that's still bad and always

Ridd: Yep.

Brad: that, it was done the way
that it was done, and there's no

reconciliation of that, and that's okay.

And you're allowed to, like, be
mad about it, and I fully respect

that because I'm mad about it too.

It's like, I like

Ridd: Totally.

And

Brad: I guess, you know, that's
what I get for sharing things.

But, like, not everyone feels
that way, and that needs to

be honored and respected.

But, and then you have this, "Oh, yes, and
now we're going to basically, like, just

get out the machetes and start hacking
away people's jobs and redundancies

and all of, like, that stuff." That's
all real too, and that's- we're

Ridd: we have no plan for it.

Brad: t- And w- a- and we're, well, but
so, but back, back to your pal though,

I think, a very interesting moment in
time because all of the artists of the

world, all of the musicians, all of the
nonprofits, all of these people who have

been, by way of the systems that they've
been operating in, uh, by way of the,

th- of how society's been designed, the
way of, of what we put our value in,

as a society, what, what we compensate,
what we don't, that leaves this very,

very vast chasm between the people who
are gainfully employed at the, the that,

you know, we chat to and have worked in

Ridd: Mm-hmm.

Brad: and, around and stuff like that,
these people that are like, "I'm an

artist, and I have stuff that I would
like to get out into the world." And,

um, there's a lot of value there.

And so what I'm very, very excited about
is for more of those people to have

the experience that your new pal just

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: uh AI-generated images
equals, you know, crappy things

that are then stealing people's job.

That's a narrative, and that, and again,
that's, that's real, and that's true,

but that's not the only narrative.

And I think that that's, that's, that's
the thing that I'm so excited about is the

thing that you just, you kinda just showed
your new pal is, is, is, like, here's how

you can use these things to facilitate
your own destiny, your own creative

destiny, and that, that it's wherever.

It's wherever you want to go with it.

Ridd: Mm-hmm.

Brad: It's wherever you wanna go with
it, that you could use this stuff.

You could point this stuff at
the stuff that is, like, to you,

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: uh, rather than just being like,
" Ticketmaster sucks," that's been the,

state of affairs for the entirety of,
of, like, the musical universe for,

you know, the, the default, right?

For, for so long, and everybody's
just under the, the, their thumb.

what does it look like when you
design your own version of th-

a thing that doesn't that, that
doesn't operate in that way, that

doesn't operate with those values?

And historically, it, it was,
well, you know, that sounds hard.

Well, what if, what if it wasn't

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: And every single day I,
I wake up… Just, he- here's,

here's my thing last night.

Um, I was like, what does it look
like to take your, your playlist, uh,

whatever streaming service you're using,
Spotify, Apple Music, whatever, uh, that

are kinda notoriously kinda not great
at paying out big numbers and stuff.

What if, uh, for any liked song on your
playlist that you, uh, that you listened

to this week, uh, at the end of the
week, it gives you an email uh, links to

all of those songs for you to buy them
from either their website directly, uh,

or from Bandcamp or wherever, like, you
could actually, like, give them a buck for

the, the music that, that you listen to.

again,

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: valuing that, what does it look
like to… And it doesn't even need to

be an either/or, although you could,
you know, make some arguments about

these, these platforms and, and all of
that stuff, and there's, that's part of

the ongoing conversation in this realm.

But it's like, at the very least,
it's like a lot of this stuff

is just around, like, visibility
and around access and ease.

I think a lot of people
want to support artists.

I think a, a, people want to throw a buck
or two in the direction of the music, uh,

and the musicians that are, are making it.

so, again, what would it look like?

And so th- that was my, that was
my, like, two-minute rabbit hole.

I'm like, what does that look like?

What's, like, the easy version of this?

What's the version that's just
like, well, Last.fm's been around

forever, and you could just kinda
like look at that stuff very easily.

there's just so many ways to, to point
this at whatever we want, and I think

that this is, like, the thing that
really, really excites me is that

historically we've had to be reliant
a certain type of, like, company or

platform or whatever in order for us to

Ridd: Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Brad: a lot of things and makes
things, you know, democratizes things.

It makes things way more accessible to
people, that's why I feel an obligation

at a, at a human level to basically help
the people who are rightly pissed off at

that, again, the, the original sin and
all of, like, the real downsides and risks

and externalities and all that stuff.

Yes, that's all there.

That's all real, and it is, and here
is, like, what we can do with it.

And I'm excited to see That's why
I'm trying to, like, help people hold

multiple thoughts in their head at
the same time because I'm like… It's

like, "Dude, I get it. Dude, I get
it. I understand," and I'm like, in

many respects, right there with you.

But also, like, here it is, just
like you showed with, with your pal.

It's like, here it is.

Like, here it is.

Just, just use it.

Just, just do it, and then you're, you're
over the line and off to the races.

Ridd: Yeah, and the, the original sin
piece is, is never going away, you know?

Like, you can… I, I'm probably
more than I should be, honestly.

Like, I'm not… I'm very
forward-looking in everything.

So it's

like, if something is a sunk cost,
like great, I derive no value

for, from thinking about it again.

Brad: Yeah.

Ridd: so it's a little easier for me to,
to like just say, "This is the world I

live in, and the only thing that really
matters is like tomorrow and the next

day." And so like let's just… But how do
I show up in the world that exists today?

Is kinda how I operate.

But it's interesting, like the flip side
of everything that, that we're talking

about is when things are democratized and
you have all of these different abilities.

I gave the motion design example.

Well, like would I have hired a motion
designer previously in the past?

Maybe, maybe not for that example,
but like certainly for some things.

Certainly for some things this year
there will be a motion element that I

would have previously hired someone for
that I will do myself, and it will be

very fun and very fulfilling for me,
and I will have these new abilities.

But it's like the cost of
democratization is the loss of power

and control from the people who have
previously held the skills, you know?

It's like, it's like I get it, you know?

My goodness, I, uh… It's
interesting to even have relationships

with engineers right now.

I'm sure it's quite annoying.

I'm sure there's-- I'm sure they're way
more frustrated than they would actually

tell me about me, encroaching on their
territory, that they- The, the, the, the,

the walls that were built were built over
many years of practice and determinations

and Stack Overflow threads, you know?

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Ridd: a sudden I'm just like, "Oh, I
am over here now. Hey guys," you know?

"I deserve to be here," you know?

That's, that's hard, and you can
look at that at every… Like,

my brother is a audio engineer.

I'm more of like the hobbyist musician.

It's great for me.

I love playing on Suno.

It's super fun.

I- one of my best friends is
the worship leader at my church.

Dude just writes a song on his g- acoustic
guitar and then like, quote-unquote,

"prototypes" it with Suno to see how it
would si- sound live with a full band

and like, you know, a full sound system.

I think that's incredible.

Like, that is so cool.

Then you have my brother who's
like, " What is my career defensibility

as somebody who has built up, you
know, just so many reps of producing

and mixing and mastering and…"

That there's two sides to
every single coin, you know?

It's weird.

Brad: there's a couple
things that come to mind.

And as you were sort of describing your
adventures into animation and as well as

the, oh yeah, the, this kind of what's
this fuzzy threshold that gets crossed

of, oh, I would've hired a freelancer for
this versus I, I, I'll just do it myself.

I think that, that a word that's
important to put into the,

into the mix is, is fluency.

So your brother, the, the audio engineer,
and our ability to, what you were

saying earlier, to onomatopoeia our
way in there, it's like we could, you

know, get a crude approximation thing.

But whenever, if we were, like,
shipping something, real or

something that is consequential
and all of that stuff, right?

The, the ability to kinda go, "Here's
my, like, toddler book version of, of

what this is," and I could visually
look at it and it's, and it looks good.

But it's like, is this durable?

Is this all, like, is this
actually, like, sound, right?

And as an audio engineer and just
knowing, like, how detail-oriented, uh,

they are, you could, uh, you know, point
that at anything, whether it's lettering

or whether it's, uh, you know, design
systems work or coding work or whatever.

It's like there is a- Yeah, this kind of
false sometimes sense of, of competency.

and this is, I think, what's
really interesting because there's,

there's an attitude that's around
defensiveness versus curiosity that

I think is, like, a big way out of

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: I think a lot of the people that
are just, like, feeling like the wall's

closing in and around them, that's
that sort of scarcity mindset that I

think can be, countered by empowerment
and, and by sort of opening the doors

to, well, you know, does this need to
be at the expense of, of your thing?

Or can you take the th- the world that
you have operated and your skills,

all of your hard-earned language that
you've absorbed and internalized and

all of your skills and talents, and
then, and then you go out, right?

You

go outward, So, so it's a, it's
a constriction versus expansion.

And what, I think is the threshold
for getting around that is, is what

you just described about, again, your,
your new pal is, is just, like, had he

been sitting there working in the same
way he'd always been working, and then

just kind of seeing everything kind of
move in around him, and to, to, to kind

of protect it and to defend it, like
it gets kind of smaller and smaller

and you get more and more worried

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: what you said before about here's
today and here's tomorrow and kind of

dwelling on the past is I think like a a
an interesting dynamic here And I think

that it's like that's a really important
attitude to cultivate because I think

that a lot of people that are feeling that
constriction are i not yet far enough down

the road where they're they're they're
looking ahead They're instead just like

Yes

Ridd: you're protecting old ground,

Brad: Right Right

Ridd: which is not a battle
you wanna play right now.

Brad: but and and so that is the thing
right Like at a societal level fought

so hard for stability in my own life
it's like this is a very destabilizing

moment in time And so could fully fully
fully appreciate everyone's you know fear

anxiety and that feeling of constriction
and that that just very destabilizing

thing But I think that just how you
opened our conversation with with going

through a process by which you're then
able to sort of emerge out the other

end and and wake up excited to to sort
of go outward rather than feeling the

the The the walls closing in around

you is something

I think that we need to we need to Let's
let's solve this What what what needs to

happen for anyone who's in this position
that feels that that constriction Like

how do you get to the other side of it

Ridd: I think where my mind went was,
oddly enough, this, uh, it's a John

Mayer interview when he was on Hot
Ones, and he-- I'll butcher the quote,

but he, He talked about how some songs
he makes for himself and someti- some

songs he makes because it's, like,
good commercial practice, and he's

making it for the masses, and there's
basically zero overlap between the two.

Like, the stuff he makes for himself is
a level of, like, complexity and nuance

and, you know, m-maybe dissonance even
that scratches his itch as somebody

who has an incredibly refined ear,
or maybe in a designer's stance, it

would be an incredibly refined eye.

But the-- what makes that song
meaningful to him, it doesn't

even exist to the average person.

In fact, it might just kinda sound like
noise, a little bit more than is needed.

if you think about maybe someone like my
brother and-- or anybody who feels like

AI is encroaching on the set of skills
that they've built up over a decade and

their little professional bubble, and
you're kind of just like, "Wait," like,

"Can I defend this territory, or do I
need to, like, get the heck out of dodge

and try to figure out what to combine it
with and do something totally different?"

my concern, I guess, is that we are
just gonna get more of everything,

and when you have excess supply, the--
where the demand concentrates does not

necessarily correlate with the level of
talent and ability required to make it.

Because given excess supply, we
won't pick John Mayer's best tracks.

We'll pick the stuff that honestly
you and I could probably make over

the next 15 minutes with Suno.

And then different factors impact
what discoverability looks like

and where demand gravitates to,

Brad: Mm-hmm

Ridd: and you probably look like, you
know, whoever's the best at TikTok is,

is, is actually who we're listening to.

And I don't know what to do with that.

I, I, I don't know what to do with that.

It makes me a little bit uncomfortable.

Uh, it, you know, it just, it just does.

Like, that's the full flip
side of, of everything.

Like, you could, you could, you could
run any profession on a computer almost

through that little thought exercise.

It gets weird, man.

Gets weird.

I don't know how to think about any of it.

Brad: I agree with all of it And and
I think the the the the thing that

I'll put on the table is that the
whatever's on TikTok and treating

that as a constant isn't on the
table So what does it look like

Ridd: Sure.

Brad: ways of connecting people
with good human-made stuff uh that

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: these handful of
platforms that have been the

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: for

Ridd: hope that's the thing.

I hope the pendulum swing… Like,
we're obviously still-- It's going

to get, quote unquote, "worse,"
depending on your definition.

It's gonna get worse
before it gets better.

You know?

Like, we are, we are still swinging
towards the AI everything, but, like,

gosh, I really am hopeful that the
pendulum will come back, and all of a

sudden it will lead to this, in many
ways, maybe, like, revitalization

of local culture, Yeah, you know?

Like, uh, local music is, like,
so in-- Like, will we have

a resurgence of local music?

Hopefully, as there's more, you
know, GDP per capita and a less

time requirement, maybe the way that
we think about a 40-hour workweek

looks antiquated 10 years from now.

Are we just m-making art and
having community experiences

with the people around us?

That would be cool, you know?

I, I'd like to think of-- I'd
like to think that that is

where this might be headed.

We'll see.

Brad: that requires work that requires
intentional design right And and

Ridd: Agreed.

Brad: and I think that you're right
It's like whatever the a lot of like

the labor around the production of the
things that people actually like need

just you know that's going to continue
to get more efficient when you look

at you know Maslow's hierarchy there
as we're able to sort of here's food

production here's like basic things but
even digital things like like websites and

finding out where the concert's gonna be

That's always been the historic pain in
the ass is like somebody's gotta manage

that or here's this like app or here's
this like thing that was trying to

everything up but then they get bored
or they like lose focus and then like

all of a sudden yep that went away or
that newsletter went away and and so now

everybody's just kind of floating And
I think that that we had a collective

experience with this with COVID where so
much of the uh uh existing infrastructure

around community just got annihilated

Ridd: see ya.

Brad: the restaurants shut down Uh
half of the the meetups all of that

stuff just get decimated right in many
respects the timing of COVID and then

kind of coming out the other end of it
and then here comes this shit just kind

of like disrupting us like yet again can
feel that way Again that that sort of

destabilization uh of things and we're
already kind of we've already been beaten

down and then this just feels it's like
man I can't catch a break But unlike

something like COVID which is just like
actually you know bad It's just like

this equals death uh straight up Uh AI
on the other hand right as as a material

or as a technology is is something that
can cause harm but it also can help

get closer together to rebuild those

Ridd: Totally.

Brad: and help us have experiences one
another and help us be able to connect

with the people around us connect with our
communities help our communities And those

opportunities I think are re require a bit
of an imagination right Like that's that's

why like whenever I why I keep like kinda
picking at this these ideas more and more

because it's like we're so used to just
things being this just mundane fucking

abysmal experience most of the time You
look out into the world and you're just

like This ain't good right So what does it
look like to just like actually make that

better I learned from the best of them My
mom's an an art teacher and she got really

creative with child labor over the years
And uh so she would like point a bunch of

kids at like kind of com community murals
in her hometown and like other things like

Ridd: All right, that's cool.

Brad: this day there's you know just
nice of color and like actual things

that have this very like kinda human
feel to it right So it's like so this

is the kinda stuff right Like you
were saying earlier it's like I'm

like not like a a designer designer in
the like Or or I'm not like an artist

Ridd: Mm-hmm.

Brad: but but but what we're describing
what I'm describing here is like

this is this is an active design
It's an intentional application

of art in order to like make a
community better so that as you're

Ridd: Totally.

Brad: and instead feels like a place
where you're like Oh this is this is

nice Like I'm able to have like welcome
to Hampton painted by some kids with

some like you know people walking their
dogs in a park or like you know whatever

whatever little things that that people
wanna paint this is what we can do That

stuff is fucking work That is coordination
That is collaboration That requires uh

community township meetings That requires
uh approvals That requires some fees

probably right Materials need to be
paid for You need to get the permission

by whoever owns that retaining wall
There it is right That's the sort of

shit that sucks It's terrible but it's
the requisite work the human work the

bureaucratic work that needs to happen
in order to do something like painting

a retaining wall a nice a nice color
without me just going out and tagging

it with with graffiti in the middle of
the night which I've been tempted to

Ridd: I was about to say,
y- y- you've almost done it.

Brad: co I and I could have done that
but but it's like but the beauty of

something like this would be making
it a community effort making it so the

that the artifact

reflects reflects the c the community
effort and that that is a part of the work

Ridd: Yep.

Brad: does it look like when we're
empowered we're all empowered to basically

go Huh we should do something about

Ridd: Yeah, I can make that better.

Yeah.

Brad: it doesn't it doesn't feel
like an impossible feat right

Ridd: There's like a whole c-- I mean,
obviously my brain goes a, a little bit

more to software as an output, but there's
a whole… I mean, how many community

specific problems were ever economically
viable to solve with software?

Like none, dude.

None.

'Cause the city's not gonna do it.

They don't have the abilities.

And then anything else that is
like cross-city, now you have

one of the hardest go-to-market
problems in the world.

And then everything that you were
doing software related had to have the,

the TAM to make it a good financial
decision to pay a large upfront cost

to do, and therefore you got nothing.

Nothing.

all that's gone now.

You can-- It can be a, you know…
Obviously, we're doing this outside

of financial m- motivations, but
I think financial It's less about

the motivations and more about the
financials are the barrier to you

actually doing anything so often, right?

And it's like all, all of a sudden
it's like, well, you could solve

one person's problem with software,
and it could be economically viable.

Well, that's very interesting, right?

I, I did that with my, my dad.

He didn't-- he wasn't asking
for an app or anything.

He just is like, he's an insurance
adjuster, and he has no tooling because

he works for himself, and he was just
like driving around with like chicken

scratch on papers, like keeping
notes about people and like trying to

figure out his routes and everything.

It was very str- I mean, you
could see it was stressful.

I, I heard him talk about it enough where
I'm like, " We should just, we should,

we should talk about this, right?" And so
he just kind of dumped on me for an hour.

I took a bunch of notes and then just
went and built him a tool, and it's like

meaningfully changed his life , you know?

That would have made no sense even if I
had the skills because it would have taken

me six months or something, you know?

And, and now it's like, oh, you
can actually build something

pretty good in like a week or two.

And I think especially designers, anybody,
but we're in this moment of time right now

where I do think we're in a, the, the vast
mi-min-minority of the world understands

that, one, problems can be found, two,
problems can be solved with software, and

three, I have the ability to do it now,
like right now if I wanted to, you know?

And so it's like we can… A-and
people still, like there, there's

still-- People don't understand how
easy software is right now, you know?

Like if you would hand something, like,
"Here, I made you this," you know?

My friend has the concept
of like software as a gift.

It's this guy Kyle.

Like, "I made you this
thing with software."

What?

You know?

Are you serious?

That doesn't… Like what?

What a fun little moment.

Like eventually we'll kind of
collectively as a society probably

understand how cheap and easy it has
become, but like we're, we're in this

transitionary period where there's

Brad: Yep

Ridd: a lot of meaning associated with it,
but the cost is low, and so you can just

Brad: Mm-hmm

Ridd: be a genuinely kind and loving
and mind-blowing person by just

making software for people, you know?

That's

Brad: beautiful

Ridd: right?

Brad: It's beautiful Yeah yeah And I
think that the role of of designers and

and people who who are fluent in these
languages have a real opportunity here to

sort of like take take that outward and
and to sort of like demonstrate that like

like with you and your dad Uh but also
again like uh this is sort of something

that I've been doing a bit more of and
trying to sort of like rally around

is this idea of here's all these like
nonprofit organizations who are operating

on shoestring budgets uh and have been
for so long Or yeah city governments or

whatever that are just Yeah everybody's
just kind of like in this place of just

like I I'm dying or we're figuring out how
to be very very resourceful with like the

little scraps of of money and time that
like we have I think that our communities

of professional designers and developers
especially those that are maybe working

in-house at places I think like it I
unfortunately I s I've seen this kinda

dip in the last maybe 10 years I feel like
there used to be a little bit more of the

Ah yeah like we're gonna do these like
side I feel like there used to be like I

don't know This is just my vantage point
so I could be totally wrong about this But

there used to be like Oh yeah I'm gonna
like go over here and like help my buddy

with his business or whatever or I'm
going to you know volunteer some stuff

over on You know build this website over
here And then I think that that kinda

got replaced with like side hustles uh

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: is a a different uh thing

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: so so my thing though is that I
think that people's innate desire to

want to be able to help and want to
be able to sort of like you know work

towards the greater good has always
been there I think that there's a lot of

like self-preservation There's like Ah
I don't have the time And again I think

that this is the thing that that you just
really wonderfully said where it's just

like well know w like it is so easy now

Ridd: Y-you do?

Brad: what does it look like Cause it
cause it's nonprofits aren't gonna be

like rolling up you know jamming on
Claude Code by themselves and stuff like

Ridd: Yeah, agreed.

Brad: opportunity to s to sort of
facilitate this process and I think

that that is like when we get into the
existential territory of what a designer

is you're like you know designing
intentional solutions to problems

that mindset that that that process
b o o of taking a problem and and you

know designing solutions to it still
re exists That's gonna be a ar around

for as long as human

are around it just might not look like
rectangles drawn on a canvas as much It's

it's it gets more into the the the the
human connection and this is I I think

like a good thing many people for th the
last couple generations of of designers

have been headphones on in rectangle
land when we need to be talking to the

people who use our stuff or talking to
the people who have the problem And like

we're actually now able to co-design and
to facilitate and to like do all of this

stuff and orchestrate these people who
are all like Uh yeah I don't I don't know

about this but I do know about my deep
of what I And you get all those people

together each with their own deep stores
of knowledge in their respective fields

and you get them all together and you say

Ridd: Yep.

Brad: to design some solutions to these
problems and you all have some smart stuff

We might have some competing opinions
But that's the other cool thing back to

the translation Well now historically
Gary and Bob don't like each other and

so And they're talking past each other
but they're actually saying two different

things Or they're actually saying the
same thing they're just saying it in

two different ways but they're talking
past one another Well if they were no

longer talking past one another What

if there is a way

translate that language out of Gary's
world and into Bob's and vice versa

and then all of a sudden you have
shared understanding Okay maybe

we could do something with that

Ridd: Yeah, you have to just--
I don't know, people talk a

lot about like moving upstream.

It's overused, but it's,
it's very true, right?

Like, the only reason that you would
be right in having doubt about the

longevity of what you're doing for money
is if you are just kind of downstream

implementing everything, right?

So it's like there's maybe even a way
that like, you know, you're, you're,

you're two, I forget their hypothetical
names, but like talking past each other.

Like, even connecting that to the,
the local business opportunity, which

I am excited for more software to
like, more high quality software to

flow into that segment of the market.

it's one thing to be good at
solving problems, which designers

are, but I think actually like the
really high-levered skill all of a

sudden is to be the problem finder.

Like, can you find the
thing that could be better?

Because especially in the local
businesses, they're not gonna

come to you with like the set of,
"Here are my seven things that

I know could be more efficient.

I just don't have the ability to do it."
No, you know, they just wake up every day

and do their thing in the same way that
the two people just talk over each other.

And so like, can you find The thing
that if it was just like tweaked or

optimized or if, you know, if these--
if, if a bridge was built between

these two people or workflows, it's
like that is the skill set, man.

When execution is cheap,
what are you pointed at?

And like the problem finders, those
are the people that I-- and the, and

the future's pretty bright if you can
bring that to the table at a high level.

Brad: Hell yeah Hell yeah And and
that's just it It's like so many

people don't know that they have the
problems or like your dad is is able to

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: of frustration or just kind of
like a lot of people just throwing up

their hands just Yeah yeah what are
you gonna do Or or whatever So again

even if people don't have that attitude
which yeah you you're 100 right they

they feel it They feel that experience

They feel

You you see them They're they're
they're tired They're exhausted They're

frustrated They're they're slammed
and you don't need to look very hard

to find that And so that's where it's
like the the the role of curiosity in

in just being like How's how's it going

And like just

Tell me tell me what's hard then like
yeah I don't know come come through

the bakery uh door the following
day with your software as a gift

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: Or something like that you know

Ridd: I, I, I've been thinking a lot--
I, I think I'm being skewed by this.

I was just on a sales demo with
a pretty interesting product.

But like I've been thinking a lot
about like what is the blurry middle

ground between a purely self-serve
software experience that you've

made and the more like service-based
consulting setup piece of said software?

Because there's something
kinda interesting there.

AI's making both of them much
more efficient, but you think

about like a local business.

They don't-- Like they want a tool,
but they really just want the problem

solved, and they're not going to be
the most technically capable probably.

You think about your local
business down the street, like they

don't wanna learn new software.

They don't wanna set up a system.

The system, the, the found…

Brad: Domain registration

Ridd: Right?

Little things that to us are so
table stakes, like just being

able to get a basic website up
that's, that's a lot of friction.

I, I have a, I have a, a friend that's
been dabbling in making, um, like

SMS-based tools for local contractors.

And what he kind of realized was, okay,
one, they're very interested in this,

but then two, they don't even have a
website that works for them, you know?

Where it's like if you blend the two, it's
like I'll make, I'll make you the website.

I'll do the upfront cost
because we're good at it.

You know, this is like what we kinda do.

We'll understand the business, we'll set
it up, and just kinda hand you something

that's fully ready to go out of the box.

It's not a tool.

It is like- It's the set, it's the system.

The whole thing is set up and you can
almost like-- People will pay for that.

They'll pay for that level of work,
which you've made much more efficient

with AI, and then they will also pay for
the tool that is now continuing to run.

And like what is this like hybrid--
How can we as designers, you're kind

of freelancing, but you're also kind
of building up leverage through like

software tools that are generating
recurring revenue, presumably.

I don't know.

I think there's like a really fun middle
ground that when things are cheaper,

when the barriers are lower, not building
like a SaaS business, but you're not

just freelancing, but you're building
up a portfolio of things that you built

that create ongoing value for people.

I think there's like a really interesting
area to play in there as somebody who

has the goal of working for themselves
by practicing the skill of design.

Brad: Yeah Yeah That's beautiful And and
at the heart of everything you're saying

is are relationships between human beings
and and there's there's like services that

are provided but there's also the software
like living and breathing and it's this

sort of stew It's this orchestration of
all of these different human systems and

and uh software systems and beyond kinda
make it all work And it feels good because

you're able to kinda come together and
again be able to have a conversation have

shared understanding And historically it
was like Oh that was like a nice meeting

But if you're like showing up to this
thing where it's like Here's this fully

functioning system and the contractor says
do it this way I snap a photo of this A

actually I have a I have a buddy who was
saying exactly this um cause he works

for uh a software company that services
like contractors who are like building

houses And uh one dude has a specific
workflow whereas like I take the pictures

of going around getting ready for the

inspection and then like what I want
is to just be able to sort of like

up upload those photos and then I'll
like sort of say s things afterwards But

then the next guy is like Well I like
to sort of first like write a bunch of

things and then like I'm kind of like
and other stuff as as an afterthought

And so it's very interesting cause you
get into this well okay if you have like

a good kind of vanilla system where all
the things are possible the APIs sound

So on and so forth all the backend stuff
needs to just be kind of table stakes

The actual experience layer could be like

hyper-personalized to

whatever individual preferences are
I want this app to be this thing

that helps me take these photos It's
basically like a a glorified camera app

Ridd: Mm-hmm.

Brad: and then I'm able to speak my
words into it and then it like turns

it into structured data Okay cool Uh
then the next person's like I want to

be able to write these things and get
them in that way and then I wanna be

able to just like upload some photos
like later or I have somebody else

that does that

Okay great So everybody a thing that
is in the shape and form that their

preferences and needs and it all comes
together and it all works and it's all

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: and you don't have to be
like This damn thing This damn

thing it never works for me

Ridd: Yeah, or like I use
20% of the functionality.

It's still worth me paying for
it, but like I literally ignore

80% of the interface, you know?

How many tools do we have
where that's the case?

Like that's so frequent.

Like what's-- so what's the-- what a fun
systems level design challenge, right?

Like that's, that gets interesting.

That gets so interesting on the, not only
like the interface component level, but

also the like the m- mental model level
of like how much is shared, where, how

much control do you give other people
because they, they want some control,

but they don't want all the control.

It's not like fully dynamic or ma-- You

Brad: Yep

Ridd: interesting to think about that
type of product, which I feel like we

barely scratched the surface of, but
it also feel, it just feels so obvious

to me that that has to exist, you know?

Brad: that And and and and whenever
people are like Well yeah yeah If like

if AI is is uh taking away my livelihood
and and I'm used to sort of like

drawing things around like this and like
Well what do I do now That That What

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: th there it is Like like

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: When we have like a flat or
one-dimensional view of like what a job is

we miss out on the massive massive massive
opportunities and just the infinite

potential for for all of this stuff So
it's like that's why I keep kind This

this idea of like kind of constriction and
expansion of like kind of getting through

that hard process to ultimately get to
a place where more people are waking up

excited going Shit I could do anything

Ridd: Mm-hmm.

Brad: really is really I think important
to to do like I guess I I I'll I'll ask

you this question cause like obviously you
have your own version of this You're like

writing more code than ever before That's
not your background Do you feel though

that your background is still relevant
to what you're doing in this day and age

Ridd: I mean, yes, but maybe
not for the answer that you were

hoping that I would address because

Brad: No I'm

Ridd: I don't even really consider my
background as a designer, honestly.

Like, I designed interfaces every day
on the internet for like seven years

before I ever even considered the
fact that my title was a designer.

I was always just like a founder.

I wanted to start things and make things.

And when I first tried to learn how
to code when I was like 18, I sucked.

Tried to make like a solar system
on Codecademy, and it kicked my ass.

And I was like, "Well, I can't do
that." And then I was like, "Well,

I'm the only non-technical person.

What else do I do?

Well, I guess there's design."

And then I cracked open Adobe
Illustrator, and that's like

started the whole thing, you know?

And so I, I was doing design, but I
was doing every non-technical task.

I was doing all the
support and all the sales.

I was growing the business, you know.

That was my early 20s.

And it was only-- I think
that is, yes, very much so.

Very much so.

And A-and even like my family,
I never realized like the impact

that my socialization experience
had on me until I was maybe 30.

But you kind of look back and you're
like, "Oh, actually, a lot of people in

my family just started things," you know.

Very, very self-starter.

That was what I was, you know, I grew up
looking at relatives who all had their

own businesses, and I guess it was just
like always what I was going to do.

So that's actually what my
background is Am I-- And I think

that's the greatest background in
the world right now . You know?

Everything we were talking about,
I think, and AI in general rewards

people who are self-starters, who
are, gonna put their head down and

just run through the wall, you know?

I, I think that is kind of naturally
I had a little bit of that in

me, and AI just amplifies that.

And so I view design more as a
skill rather than an identity.

and I like trying new things.

I don't I get bored, man.

I, I, I have to be working on things
that are really life-giving for me.

If I'm not, then they feel like
work, and as soon as something feels

like work, I like kinda put it away.

That's not a great thing.

Sometimes it's not a great thing at all.

but like I ha- a-a-and that's
why I have to be intentional

about the things that I work on.

Like I, I have to do something that
I know will retain its game-like feel

long enough for me to win purely based
off of consistency and just showing up.

If I can find that thing, good luck.

No one can beat me, you know?

'Cause I'm having more fun than
you, and I'll do it every single

day and all my free time 'cause
I'm having a really fun time.

So if I can align those things,
like I don't really care

where it takes me, you know?

Like I know that I'm gonna be working on
fundamentally different things 10 years

from now than I am today, and I don't care
because you'll just figure it out every

step of the way, and if you just follow
what's interesting, then Good, good luck.

Keep it up, you know?

That's-- So it's a little bit of
a different type of answer than

maybe you were expecting, but
that's kinda how I r- operate.

Brad: I I think that you got into the
heart of it and if I could like play it

back to you uh you just described how
you operate and a level of self-awareness

and understanding that is baked into
your genes it sounds like at a very deep

level of Here are my tendencies Here is
why I seek these cert certain kinds of

experiences out Here is why I do these
things Here is um you know h here is the

Here are the conditions that I like to
find myself And when I find myself in

these conditions I know I'm going to have
a good time And when I find myself in

these different conditions I am self-aware
enough to know isn't where I want to be

and I need to in order to get back to a
place that's more in line with my internal

system And this I think is such an
important moment in time for everybody to

understand why they enjoy doing the things
that they enjoy doing Because as you said

the the what going to be doing what we're
doing is changing all the time know the

era Like we we came up in an era where The
semblance of you know working at a place

for 35 years and retiring and getting
a gold watch was already n already not

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: was like in our You know we were
we were around the older generations

who that was true for And I think that
like in this day and age it's just

like you know forget about it You know

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: so th this this ability to to kind
of like know know yourself and get into

a place where I go Ah yes I'm wired in
this way Here are the things I enjoy why

do I enjoy the things that I enjoy That's
like I think a good exercise is just

like what what activities do I do Like
what are my hobbies What are my You know

what do I do for fun What do I do for
work You know why why why right Why why

do I do

that And guess what

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: help with that too

Ridd: Yeah,

Brad: Ta

Ridd: I, agree.

Brad: a look at take a look
at my calendar and figure out

like Help me draw some themes

Ridd: Yeah.

I,

Brad: Yeah

Ridd: so hopeful that more people work for
themselves in the next, like, five years.

Like, I, I think the stars are aligning in
so many ways where it's… Like we talked

about, like the, just the, the commercial
line has dropped so far that all of a

sudden there's this whole other class
of opportunity that wasn't previously

realistic, where it's like you can find
stuff that overlaps with your interest.

AI is good at doing that.

It's less… You, you need way less upside
to make it worthwhile for you, you know?

Like, you don't… It was like the
idea of like, I don't know, I guess…

I, I know it's not this simple, but
like in tech, I've often felt like

you kinda get drawn toward two poles.

You're either a freelancer working
for yourself or you're a founder, you

know, and you're like really go for it.

I'm taking this massive swing and putting
all of my eggs into this basket, you know?

And it's like,

middle ground's really rich now,
where it's like, "No, I just work for

myself." Like, sometimes I, I real-
I mean, sometimes, every single time

somebody asks me what I do, I panic.

I have no idea what to say 'cause I don't
have a good, I don't have a good answer.

I would imagine in times maybe you felt
like you don't have an amazing answer too,

but it's kind of a cool thing, you know?

It's like you almost have this,
this like interconnected portfolio

of bets and interests that together
make your career and, and the

ability to put foo-food on the table.

And I think all of a sudden, I think
a lot of people could, could have that

setup where it's like, "Well, I kind of…

I do this thing over here, and I kind
of do this thing over here, and, uh, and

I have this one client that I help, or
I, I, I help with this thing over here.

And, uh, yeah, I don't know.

Like that's just what I do," you know?

How cool would it be if a bunch of
people that had the skill set of

finding and executing against problems
were able to have that type of answer

versus, "I work for X," period.

You know?

I'd love that world.

I think, I think, I hope that that world
is like quickly coming to us and that

there's this moment of time where the
early adopters who make the jump have

the ability to play on, you know, an
easier mode just because there's all

of this untapped opportunity given the,
the, the, the cost line has diminished.

Brad: Yeah No I think I think that
that you're onto something there And

if I look at at kind of how I've been
operating I've been running my business

since 2013 It's always been very tricky
cause yeah whatever uh people don't know

what to make of me Cause yeah I I've
spoken at conferences and they're like

Brad what do we

put for your like company logo And I

was like Ah

What what's your title Uh

Ridd: I had that when I
interviewed you like a year ago.

I'm like, "What's this dude's title?"
I'm like, "I have no idea what to put

as this dude's title." I love that.

I love that.

Brad: But I think that you're picking at
something that's very important because

it's And it gets to the heart of I think
like how how human beings like operate

and behave It's like we we kinda crave
a a a clean answer to to a question

And I think

that there's Un unfortunately this
moment has kinda shattered any like

semblance that that there is a clean
answer to problems Like who are you

and what do you do Like or or what's
this what's this for Or how do you

make money pick this road or this road

Ridd: Mm-hmm.

Brad: Guess what Guess what Those things
were never true And and I think that

you're right to say that yeah there's
like kind of a a subset of people who

are entrepreneurial in nature that you'll
you'll find are the people that are able

to kind of navigate that fuzziness But
I think that that's being inflicted on

everybody right now and I think that
that's a lot of the the source of a

lot of people's anxiety is for I if
you aren't wired in that way It's it's

it it can feel again that that kind
of constricting of shit like this this

thing that I know to be true might not be
true anymore and that's very very scary

Tell me if you disagree with it or not
but uh I don't think perhaps this runs

counter to founder culture startup life
or anything like that that there are the

the That you got it or you don't I think
anything can be learned and that there's

there's certain natural tendencies that
we have but we're able to and expand

our perspectives and new skills and

Ridd: Tell me.

Brad: like getting comfortable
braving the unknown and operating

in like a weird fuzzy place where
there aren't clean answers to to

complex problems how do you teach that

Ridd: It's weird.

Like, a lot of it is knowledge
transfer, but I think also it's

just forcibly pulling someone along
for the very first step, and then

once you take the first step, you
realize, "Oh, I'm in the room now.

I made this room really, really
scary and opaque in my head, but

it's actually not that bad, and
I can just look at the next step.

It's right there.

Like, now I see the next step.

I can just take it," you know? Like,
"Oh, cool, now there's another one.

Okay, I'll take that one next," you know?

So like I, I really think just
the first step is the really,

really, really difficult one,

Brad: Yes

Ridd: and I think it's also quite
difficult sometimes to convince

someone to take it with just words.

You kinda gotta push them a little
bit, which is why the problem-- I,

I struggle to imagine how it is-
Solved effectively at scale, I guess.

But like I'll give you an example.

It's actually the guy that was,
um… He's building the tooling

for the local contractors.

I've given pieces of the story,
I'll tell it real quickly, which is

like I made this thing for my dad.

I didn't really have time to support it
and was realizing like, "Oh, actually,

maybe there's something here." And
then I met this guy who came to my

house from, um, he lives in Africa.

One in a billion chance that this dude
walked into my door, uh, because of his

schooling journey and everything, and
he had just graduated with a computer

science degree from the local college.

So I naturally started talking to
him and, and, I, I think he had

the blinders on from, you know, an
education, a four-year education.

Like he had no idea how the
world actually worked, you know?

So I,

Brad: yeah

Ridd: him under my wing a little
bit and was like: "Listen, man,

you gotta do things a little bit
differently in certain ways."

And, um, and he showed a curiosity,
so I kind of just invested him.

And then he told me one day, he's
like: "I need to, I, I need to

get a job to stay in the US" based
off of whatever his situation is.

I'm not gonna pretend
like I know the acronyms.

and I'm kinda… I like the
guy, and I was like: "Okay,

well, what if I just hired you?"

All he had to do was have
a tech company hire him.

So I was like: "I'll just hire you. I'll
pay you whatever your bare minimum, break

even, what do you need?" kind of thing
to just do life, and then you can explore

and build things outside of the pressure.

And so he started helping with my dad's
thing, and then we were like, well, what

if this is like a, another business?

And now he's been working on, uh,
now he's building contracting tools

for a couple other local businesses.

And, he didn't even realize the
transformation that happened.

But there was this m- there was this
moment like one time where he's like, you

know, "What do I do?" Instead of telling
him, I just said, "Come over to my house."

We stood right here at my desk.

I did it standing mode, and I just
said, "Okay, this is, this is Claude.

This is how we're gonna approach the
question of what do we do and get it to do

research for us and help us guide and…"
You know, and I just unlocked him one

time, and now this dude is like going out
and like cold calling local businesses,

building websites for local companies.

He just pitched at the local like, um,
uh, like startup event kind of thing.

He's actively in, uh, due diligence with
like a local fund who's gonna give him a

grant to, to like double down on things.

And he's taken the next 15 steps
way faster and more aggressively

than I could have predicted.

But all it took was just like, I
just had to just shove him forward

with the first step, and then he just
do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

And now he's hooked,

Brad: Mm-hmm

Ridd: and he's good at building, and he's
like doing sales, learning how to write

cold emails, learning what a SAFe is.

And it's like How many more people can
you give that experience to, you know?

Y-you just take the first,
like just come in the room.

Just see that the room's not
scary, and there's actually a

staircase in front of you, you know?

Brad: And and you're there to to guide and

support

and

Ridd: Mm-hmm.

Brad: and that's and that's the thing
right It's it is scary There's a

reason why people can't do solo jumps
out of an airplane by themselves

Ridd: Yep.

Brad: do it it's like you need your
buddy You need the buddy system and the

the conditions and by which people feel
psychologically safe to go I'm doing this

for the first time What do I do Or I'm
getting stuck here and like Is anybody

Like are you going to laugh me out of the
room Uh one of the things that that we

experience so often is and just have to
remind people of and I hate to say it but

like e es especially women it's just like
beginning sentences with an apology Like

Ridd: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brad: w you're exactly where you need
to be right now Like there there's

no apology needed We're you're we're
making first contact with a brand-new

way of doing things which by the way
we don't know what the fuck we're

doing either right Like we're we're
we're we're only just a few more reps

Ridd: Yeah, one rung on the ladder.

Brad: So so how do we collectively right
as as an industry as a community as

in everything the conditions by which
more people can have that experience

It's a beautiful beautiful story and
beautiful experience and and I think

that that is the opportunity gets out
of the th that that scarcity mindset

of but wait a minute if you if you
teach them how to do this then like

then what if that cuts in on your thing

And then

you realize that oh yeah that's
just yet another story that

is uh

has been perpetuated for far too long So
it's like i this is the the the time not

speaking hypothetically that it's like
a lot of that stuff can be dismantled

and you can arrive at a place where
people the picture you're painting is

beautiful which is Helping each other
out taking on this job doing this it

breathes We we're all just a bunch
of Venn diagrams walking around and

sometimes we're closer together and we're

Ridd: I like that.

Brad: help And like Okay and then yep
maybe Like we could collaborate on a

project right now and we could do it
without feeling like hey we gotta sign

a contract uh and and you know become
co-founders and what's your role gonna

be and we're gonna s fire up a new LLC
Nope we could actually just do some work

together hang around one another do a
thing We're we're more overlapped but then

we but then that project ends and then
we move on to life and you could create

that space and that that overlap with
like as many people as you encounter in

your life And

it's 100 possible and everybody finds a
way to make two and two or it to to add

up to four whether that's your it's two
plus two equals four whether it's one plus

one plus one plus one equals four whether
it's pi plus whatever This is 100 possible

and this is 100 necessary right now And

again it's like

when y when you look out whether it's
in Kalamazoo or Pittsburgh or anywhere

else and you just again look at the
just kind of bleak depressing hellscape

that sometimes it can look like Like
when when you j Like I always just

beeline it to who looks like they're
having fun at their job I dial way in

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: is like a signal You got And
all you need to do is like travel

elsewhere where you're like Oh these
people don't seem to hate their

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: You know Like everyone deserves to
be like You know if you're the barista

at that coffee shop that you're meeting
your new pal it's like y are they cool

or d are they like are they happy to
be there or are they like hating life

Hopefully baristas seem to in general be
a little bit more more happy or whatever

But most places gas station attendants
you know grocery stores just just a lot

of people are just like You could just
tell like they're beaten down they're

living in conditions by That that aren't
conducive to flourishing to thriving

It's a struggle

It doesn't need to be a struggle So
what what do we collectively do make

it not be a struggle th this is why
these conversations I think are so

important Because it's it's it's it's
taking all the other bullshit away

and a lot of those other narratives
that are at least partially true but

they're not telling the whole story
And I think that like we need to help

people understand where this can go

Ridd: Mm-hmm.

Brad: And and and we're I think it's
important to say that just because we're

saying this doesn't mean that it's gonna
happen or that it's a given or that it's

Like no Th that that's the work That's
just the work that's required and that's

that's good and important work that we
kinda collectively need to do control

Ridd: There's less of a tie to the old,
like, world system and hierarchies in

a way that's pretty interesting too.

Like, it's no surprise that the people
who complain about AI are the ones who

have achieved a, uh, I don't wanna use
the word defensible again, but like,

you know, they're well-positioned
in today's world, and maybe they

are more experienced, you know?

Of course, they would be upset because
it's, like, their work and their

position that's in jeopardy, you

Brad: Yep

Ridd: But like, going back to this guy
that I'm, that I'm was talking about, that

I was kinda mentoring, like, I, I don't
want people to, to interpret everything

that we're talking around through
the like, "Well, we just need more.

We need more people
mentoring others." We do.

Like, that's fantastic, but that even
is, like, bred from this hierarchical

chain that is tied to, like, experience
and reps. The fact is, like, what AI

has done is flattened so much, right?

Like, everything's just as new
for me as it is for this guy.

And yeah, maybe I was able to jumpstart
him, but now, dude, he's flying, man.

Like, he's made some way crazier
stuff with AI than I have, and I have

now as much to learn about certain
things from him as he does from me.

And two years ago, there would've
been almost no slice of software

where that could've possibly been
true in under six months, right?

There's no way that he could've
learned anything in six months

that I could've also learned from.

There's just no way.

I

Brad: Yeah Yeah

Ridd: 15 years on him, you know?

But now he'll come up and be like,
"Oh, dude, I figured this thing out.

Look at this." And I'm like, "Holy shit.

Are you serious?

How did you do that?" You know?

Be damned with the experience.

Like, everything's just so new.

There's so much opportunity for, for
curiosity, and everything's advancing more

quickly than any one individual can learn.

And so I feel confident that that window
of opportunity Where it rewards the

curious will not only stay open, but
actually grow for at least a little bit.

You know?

Like we- we're, we're very clearly
still on the ascent and, and, and

nobody really knows where this is going.

It's like you could be fresh
out of school and be a…

Like actually pushing the frontier
of things, which has never happened.

That's never happened before.

Maybe since like the dawn of literacy at
scale, like that's never happened before.

Brad: Yes Yes Mm-hmm

Ridd: I get hyped about, I
get hyped about the op- I'm an

optimist, if you can't tell.

You know?

It's like I, I want people to leave
inspired and to, to like understand that

there is real opportunity regardless of
your circumstance or current standing

in whatever your world looks like.

Brad: That's uh I think that that's
so important to just underscore triple

underscore and this is something that I
I no doubt in my mind you you hear the

same as I do People go well who am I

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: you know This has already been
said or You already talked about this so

I c I can't talk about this or whatever
And so incredibly important for people

to understand that that yeah your your
pal that that you helped get going it's

like the fact that he is from Africa
gone through this program lived life

a certain way has these certain things
has these experiences no other person on

the planet has had that exact experience
Just as anybody living uh in this moment

listening to this conversation has
had the exact experience that you have

And when you as you just rightly said
everything is flattened and all of this

is within reach and you're empowered of
a sudden your whole life your interests

your hobbies your experience where you've
been where you've traveled what you've

seen all of that becomes in play Like

Ridd: Mm-hmm.

Brad: are you you are valuable because
you're a human being who has lived on this

earth and you've you've you've walked a
path in life that's gotten you to where

you're at now And now you're you're here
And sure yeah people like us might have

like a few more notches on on the belt or
whatever phrase you wanna use for it it's

for in terms of like actual experience
But I think that you're 100 right that

it's just like here is opportunity You

take

what about You take what you value
You take good stuff You take what

you see in the world and and you
can make things better with it

Ridd: Yeah.

Well said.

Well said.

It's not hard to get me going.

Brad: it's great It's great It's great And
again but but j but just maybe like last

quick thing cause it's like tends to get
misconstrued Could you speak to that like

a little bit Just like around like h has
there ever been like times where they're

just like Oh Red you're just you're
just like you're being naive here Like

Ridd: naivety was the
word I was gonna say,

Brad: you're

Ridd: yeah.

Brad: things Yeah

Ridd: Yeah, the disclaimer is I've, I've
literally been to counseling about this.

I, I so get drawn to optimistic
outcomes, and I find it… I don't know.

There's two ways to look at it.

Like one, is there an element of it
where it's like a source of denial, and

actually it's like a coping internally?

Yeah.

My counselor would say yes, that
there is an element of that.

I also think that there is incredible
alpha in being optimistic, and

optimism is typically what lends
itself to early adoption too.

I like to be an early adopter.

You wouldn't try things and be one of
the first to experiment and tinker and

explore a given anything if you didn't
lend yourself to being slightly optimistic

that it'll be worthwhile, and you're not
gonna just waste your time, get hurt,

you know, lose money, anything, you know?

Like, uh, you have to expect
optimistic outcomes to be at the front.

I think anybody that can assemble
basic logic building blocks can arrive

at the conclusion that there's real
value in being at the front right now.

Like in-- Uh, I don't know how
long the window's gonna be open.

Like not 10 years.

I don't know.

Like there's a window though.

Like any, anytime there's a
transitionary period, there's

windows 'cause things get reshuffled.

Um, s- my friend Saleo would
call it like a jump ball.

Like we're living in this great jump
ball where like everything's kind of

up for grabs again because everybody,
regardless of where they were at,

had to kind of cross the chasm.

So if you are optimistic, you'll sprint
across the chasm 'cause it's like you

expect it to be better on the other side.

And if you're on the other side more
quickly, then there are untapped

opportunities that are derived from
very r-real first movers advantage at

almost any level of society, you know?

Therefore, why not be an optimist?

You know?

Like why would I not be
an optimist right now?

I-- That's, that's how I think about it

Brad: Yeah Yeah No that's that's fantastic
I I I love There's a lot of really good

visual imagery you just shared there

Ridd: I, I audibly process.

So I'm like, I'm not kidding, I've
never thought about that visual image

before, but you asked the question,
and then I kind of started talking.

I'm like, "Well, that actually
makes a lot of sense."

Brad: Yeah It's amazing and and also I
think like the the the counselor's words

Ridd: Very correct.

Brad: to

Ridd: Very correct.

Brad: but but also a lot of it and my
friend Rebecca said it really well it's

just like it's it's not necessarily like
it doesn't have to be necessarily like

a form of of denial Like there can be a
recognition with it but it's just like

a a willingness to just kind of dwell
or stew in the problem statement versus

the Okay I understand it Where do we go

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: And

Ridd: Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

Yeah.

Brad: and I think it requires It takes
all kinds obviously because I think that

that people who who aren't wired that
way are very good at at kind of helping

define and and sort of the the problems
to be solved and that's where I think that

it's like a healthy balance and blend of
a lot of people working together And and

there's there's kind of like a a beautiful
kind of tension that comes with uh op

the optimist trying to pull a bunch of
people across the line but then they sort

of serve as as some important breaks and
stuff And so so it doesn't It's rather

than like a competition where people are
like winning and losing and if you get

here faster then you get all the gold
it's like Like what does it look like to

kind of like come together as a diverse
group of of people kind of hitting things

from different angles and getting to a
healthier place together responsibly so

Ridd: I think, I think
that's a good point.

You're, you're… You don't want it to
f- Are there gold rush elements to it?

Yeah, of course.

Uh, we live in a capitalistic society.

Like, we would be naive to say
that there's not elements of that.

But I, I do think about it more like, um,
another analogy, or is that a metaphor?

I'm not sure.

But like a visual is like, you
know, the, the train's kind of

leaving the station, you know?

Where it's like,

Brad: Mm-hmm

Ridd: more people on the train.

You know?

Like, like, "Come on, guys."
Like the, " We're going." Like,

you know, "We're, we're going.

Do you wanna come?" You know? "It's
v-- I, I… It's gonna be fun.

I don't exactly know where we're going,
but I'm sure it's gonna be great, right?

Trust me." There's, there's
an element of that too.

Brad: I love it I love it Well it Train
train or no train or or whatever I think

that that just like starting to like
paint a picture of it's like hey this

is like good health Like this is this
is a place to be and that it makes a

lot of sense to work towards that more
expansive attitude towards things rather

than the the the walls are closing

Ridd: Mm-hmm.

Brad: me kind of thing And and I think
that there's a lot to be said about just

uh I think you're doing a a good service
in in kind of helping paint a picture for

people of like here here is this this this
landscape that that is fertile that is

unexplored Yeah that's a little scary but
at the same time that is that is why know

we continue to to move forward despite the
the fog of what's ahead of us is like we

kind of have to chart out these paths And

scary in many respects but also really
exciting and it's ultimately what we make

of it So I think that there again like
just as we've talked about here is there's

a lot of opportunities to make ways of of
being and operating and of that's within

reach especially now that we can just
kind of supercharge people's potential

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: with these new technologies So
pretty cool Uh well thank you Thank

you so much for this This is this is
great This is a We're recording this

on a Friday It's a fantastic way of

going into

Ridd: it's good Friday energy.

You injected it right in the
beginning of the conversation.

You set the tone, Friday energy.

This is a Friday conversation.

Brad: Friday conversation A pretty
deep Friday conversation if I

Ridd: Yeah, maybe.

Maybe.

Brad: and only other sort of structured
part of the show is is what music do

you want more people to know about

Ridd: I, I knew this question was
coming, and I… It's stressing

me out 'cause I love discovering
music, so I'm like so much.

Can I give two?

Can I give two?

Brad: You you most

Ridd: Okay.

Brad: can

Ridd: Okay, I gotta give two 'cause
there's, like, just very different types.

So

Brad: Wild

Ridd: basically at all times.

Uh, I've had instrumental music going
on softly in my headphones this entire

conversation, and I have it on for every
conversation that I ever do because I

think I get a little bit weird without it.

Yeah, it's… People think it's
odd, but, like, I get odd when I

don't have music going while I'm

Brad: Yeah

Ridd: I get kinda,

Brad: wild

Ridd: that requires, you know, I
can't have any lyrics, obviously, so

I have different, l- energy levels,
um, to the different types of music.

And in the middle ground, that has
just been a staple, like, I've been a

top 0.1% fan on Spotify for, like, uh,
over 10 years now, is, um, Emancipator.

You ever listen to Emancipator?

Brad: I

Ridd: I was hoping you hadn't heard.

Now I'm glad that I gave two.

Emancipator is really good work music.

It's just really good.

It's, it's just repetitive enough
where it's not distracting.

It's not like, you know, dubsteppy
or too four on the floor where it's,

like, too high energy, but it's
not gonna put you to sleep either.

It's just good, focused music.

Cannot recommend Emancipator enough.

I've-- G- I, I, I would… Maybe other
than, like, close relatives, I just

can't imagine that anybody has listened
to more Emancipator over the last

decade of their lives than, than I have.

Brad: Amazing Amazing

Ridd: So, so that's a good one.

Brad: f uh he went to to school in
uh my wife's hometown But anyways I

Ridd: Really?

Okay.

I, I would be curious what you think.

It, it's… Again, it's like I
only listen to it while being

creative and working on tasks.

Like, it's not like a
drive-around-the-car music.

It's like f- I'm thinking.

It supports thinking, basically.

Brad: I love it

Ridd: listening to a lot in the
last, maybe tie back to last summer.

But I, I don't really
listen to albums that much.

Nah, I, I like discovering music, so
I'm always on-- just trying to discover

different radios or playlists, just,
just get me out of my comfort zone.

And what ends up happening is I save
individual songs to my own playlists.

And so sometimes it takes me a while to
realize, "Whoa, I actually really like

this artist," because I've saved like six
of their songs individually, and then I'll

put it together and I'm like, "Oh, whoa."

And then I click on, like, their
artist page for the first time, and

I realize I have the green checks
by, like, their top six songs.

I'm like, "Oh, I guess I'm a
fan. I didn't even know I was a

fan. I guess I'm a fan." Layup.

Layup is my latest one where I'm
like, "Oh my gosh, I've saved

all their music individually."

I love… The guy's voice is a little
different, a little bit polarizing.

I'm assuming, I'm gonna assume
you haven't heard of Layup.

Have you heard of Layup?

This one's like… It's only
like two million monthlies on

Spotify, so it's not h- not huge.

it's great music.

It makes you feel good.

The guy's voice is very unique.

Maybe you wouldn't like it.

I like it.

And the… I don't normally care about
lyrics and much more what's the music

making me feel, and unless they're, like,

Brad: Sure

Ridd: to me, I don't, I just don't
even… It's just an instrument to me.

Brad: Yeah Yeah

Ridd: and except Layup's
messaging is great.

It's like, it's really
encouraging, uh, in so many ways.

Um, a lot of things speak to
me as, like, a young father.

A lot of things are just about, like,
enjoying moment or being kind to people.

It's very c- consistently just
messaging that I feel good about

supporting and, like, it resonates.

And so

Brad: Beautiful

Ridd: uh, a, a, a big plus one to Layup.

B- quickly become a fan.

Brad: Beautiful Yeah that's amazing So
yeah all right Emancipator and Layup

And and again back to back to the my
little idea I'm like oh yeah maybe

it's the threshold that gets crossed
where as soon as you like like two

Ridd: Yes.

Brad: of the songs

Ridd: Yeah.

Brad: the thing where it's like it
hits you with the like hey you really

you really like this artist um that
you've just been ambiently listening

to And I think that that that's that's
really cool that you It sounds like

you're you're kind of aggressive with
your like button it maybe a little bit

Ridd: I add to playlist,
which also likes it.

Brad: Okay.

Sure,

sure

Ridd: I curate, the, the playlist like,
uh… I used to run a music blog, so

that kind of has like trickled into
my… I go way weird with Spotify.

I have so many.

If I'm ever in a moment where I feel
like I don't have the perfect Spotify

playlist, I create one, I date it, and
describe the moment in the description

text, and then I populate the playlist.

So I have this like set of playlists
that are all tied to moments when I

realized that its existence was warranted.

Brad: We're gonna do a follow-up
session where I wanna, I wanna

see the inner workings of

Ridd: Yeah, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brad: Amazing.

Well, thank you so much for, for, for
being here, and for, for everything, and

for sharing what you share into the world.

And, uh, uh, for those of you that, uh,
or people who are listening that don't

know who you are and where to find you
and stuff, where, where could they go

and follow along with what you're up to?

Ridd: Yeah, m- dive.club is my podcast.

Almost everything kinda
goes through there.

If you're on Twitter is where I
mostly hang out, so rid_design

is… That's kinda home base for me.

If you, if you s- Google me on…
I'm on LinkedIn technically too,

but Twitter is like kinda, that's
the home base, so find me there.

Brad: I- that's a good T-shirt.

I'm on Twink- uh, I'm
on LinkedIn technically.

Ridd: I actually really like that, yeah.

Brad: Well, cool.

Well, thank you so much for being here.

Uh, it's been a real treat,
and, uh, happy Friday.

Happy weekend.

Ridd: Yeah, you too.

I appreciate you having me on, Brad.

I've, I've, uh, consumed all of your
writing and stuff for many, many years,

so even just getting to hang is an honor.

I appreciate it.

Brad: Yeah, it's great.

It was great.

Thank you.