Mountain Biking, Parenting, and AI’s Breakneck Evolution with Luke Wroblewski

Brad: Luke Wroblewski what has
you waking up excited these days?

LukeW: I have children, so that
wakes me up excited every day.

got up this morning at 5:00 AM because
it rained recently over here, and

so the mountain biking trails in
Santa Cruz are pretty ridiculous.

So I spent this morning about
two hours out there on the bike.

None of these things are work related.

I don't know if that's
what you were asking me

Brad: Oh,

LukeW: to get

Brad: no.

LukeW: but yeah.

Brad: Oh, dude, it, it, it is children.

It is mountain biking.

It is, it is all of that stuff.

And I've, I've gotten to, to
see all of that from afar.

I'm curious about the rain.

'cause you said ridiculous good.

Ridiculous or bad.

Ridiculous.

'cause there's like rain washing
out trails or rain making good

mountain biking conditions.

LukeW: It's all a cycle.

sticky, kind of grippy good
traction on mountain biking trails

is great, which doesn't come when
everything's super dry and loose.

It also doesn't come when
everything's slippery and muddy.

California living is, it's mostly
and dry ish, you know, and then

there's a season where it rains.

So usually when we get rain, it means to

Brad: That okay.

I would never have thought that.

So that's very interesting.

That's news to me.

LukeW: Maybe it's, it's definitely
specific to the type of biking I do.

Right?

Like road riding doesn't matter.

But I

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: downhill gravity, those
sorts of things where like traction

matters when you try to break,

Brad: How long have you been doing
that type of mountain biking?

LukeW: I don't know, 20 something
years longer, probably longer 25.

Brad: So it's like, it's, it's
been an adult activity that you've

picked up like through adulthood.

It's not like something that
you've been doing your whole

LukeW: maybe started like eight.

I mean I used to mountain
bike in college, right?

But I went to college at the
University of Illinois, it took

coming out to California where trails
are more like this than this to.

into that side of it, but I've always
been mountain biking, so I guess it

depends on like how you define it.

Right.

But

Brad: Right.

LukeW: specifically probably
like 20 something ish years just

because of being in an environment
where you can actually do that.

Brad: so it took you being in
the, in the right conditions to

really like kind of sink into it

LukeW: You

Brad: and do it.

LukeW: scuba dive when
you're living in Wisconsin.

I mean, I guess you could,
but it's not really,

Brad: there's a great uh, t-shirt
company, called Homage Outta Ohio,

and they have this like really amazing
retro surf Ohio shirt that just like,

you know, at first glance it just looks
so legitimate that you're like, oh

yeah, it's like a cool surf surf shirt.

And then you, you do the double take and,

LukeW: probably something,
there's something to surf there,

Brad: yeah.

LukeW: not pipeline.

Brad: Right.

Do your, do your kids
mountain bike with you?

LukeW: Yeah, a little bit.

They don't do the stuff
that I do though, so

Brad: You're, you're living on the edge.

You're, you're.

LukeW: It's a thing to grow into.

just for transparency, I'm like out
there building jumps and wooden drops

and shit, like in the woods for hours
and throwing the bike off of stuff.

So it's an, it's an
acquired taste for sure.

Brad: you like host things too, right?

You have like, even crazier
people come, come join you.

LukeW: Yeah.

Yeah, way crazier.

Uh, like the current mountain biking,
world champion, Jackson Goldstone's been

in the backyard riding with us the most
winning downhill mountain biker ever.

Um, Greg Manar was out there, Steve
Pete, who was kind of the guy before

him, out there, so yeah, like the dudes.

Brad: Amazing.

has there been any like direct
correlation to, uh, of what you're doing

there and other aspects of, of life

LukeW: Yeah.

I made this one slide a long time ago.

I don't even know if, I'm trying to
see if I can find it, where I was

like trying to equate trail building
to like building products because

uh, it was kind of funny, right?

There's like some stuff on prototyping and

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: things and all that.

I don't even know if it, oh This will
be how we make the transition, right?

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: step one, understand
the problem, right?

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: got this giant ravine here.

What are we gonna do?

two prototype.

You can see there's like little
ropes there and things, so trying to

figure out how to cross the chasm.

Then you like actually start
planning little architecture.

You get your resources, you build the back
end, and then you build the front end.

Brad: Bada bing bada boom.

LukeW: not a direct analogy, but you know,

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: close enough,

Brad: that's fantastic.

That's fantastic.

and then surely there's, there's
the iteration along the way where

you're like, you, you take that first
turn as you, you learn your physics

were wrong and carene over the edge.

LukeW: Hopefully get
that out earlier, right?

I think the bigger analogy is maintenance,

Brad: Yeah,

LukeW: a key part of
launching anything, right?

As soon as you build it,
you're maintaining it.

Brad: yeah.

Which is the, which is the hard
and often unglorious part of

doing any of those things, right.

It's the, it's the literally like
getting out there with the shovel and.

LukeW: Yeah.

Brad: Digging it out.

LukeW: thing's.

True.

Any little web thing you launch, right?

Somebody updates some framework,
all of a sudden it starts to break.

You gotta get in there and fix it,
and you get code rot or what have you.

That's, I, you know, launch is the start.

Brad: There's an old book.

It was like, it is like starting and
sustaining and that, that book I feel

like did a great job at, it's like,
here's like this, this totally unique

mindset that takes to sort of take
something from an idea in your head

into a thing that exists into the world.

And then it's like, people are like,
okay, well that, that mindset got me here.

And that it's like as soon as that,
that threshold gets crossed, it's like,

and here comes a totally different
mindset of like keeping this thing alive

and growing it, maintaining it, and,

LukeW: The more you own,
the more you maintain

Brad: man.

LukeW: to children too.

To go back to the beginning,

Brad: I mean, 'cause you
have two kids, right?

LukeW: yeah.

Brad: are, how old are they now?

LukeW: 17 and 15.

Brad: how, how has that changed?

Because like, I mean, I've now gotten
a chance to hang out with your kids,

which are, which is, that in and of
itself is, is really, really fun that

it's just like, oh yeah, you could
come along and you're not just like,

you know, here, here's the high chair.

It's like, you're, you're a
part of these conversations.

You're, you're at least like,

LukeW: trying

Brad: you know.

Yeah, yeah.

LukeW: yeah.

Give it a

Brad: how has that been?

How has that been?

As like, as they've kind of come
into an age where it's like you're

able to, to kind of like, interact
with them in, in different ways.

LukeW: Yeah.

I think there's a narrow window there
to prepare you to take advantage of.

Right beginning, they're kids and you're
doing a lot more of, you're watching

them, right, and then gradually they can
kind of do things themselves and, but

they're still too young to do your stuff.

Then there's that like little band where
there's an overlap, like what you do and

what they wanna do, And then after a while
they're like, yeah, that stuff's lame.

I'm gonna do my own thing.

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: really gotta take advantage of
that little overlap period when you can.

So I take my kids to concerts, right?

Like me and my daughter read the
same comic books as you mentioned.

I drag them along on, uh, trips to
conferences and things to go see stuff.

But that, that window is narrow.

Brad: Yeah, yeah.

Well, especially at 17 because
that's And that's your son, right?

So, so he is like off to, off to
his own adventures here pretty soon.

Yeah.

LukeW: he is to touring colleges.

His mom took him out to the Midwest.

Brad: Okay.

LukeW: Yeah.

See some schools.

Brad: Okay.

I'm picturing you on these
college tours that I could

just see, hear you being like,

LukeW: I,

Brad: that's bullshit.

LukeW: they're all,
they're all the same man.

Well, so I, my philosophy on this
is path will kind of find you

through a series of doors that you
come upon, choose to open or not.

Right?

Because I went to school at
the University of Illinois

because I wanted to keep my car.

was accepted to MIT, I
was accepted to Michigan.

I was accepted to all
these other schools, right?

And my parents were like,
if you go to all those other

schools, you can't keep your car.

And I'm like, well, I own my car.

So I went to the University of Illinois.

That was how I made my college choice.

these days, right, like people
are like killing themselves

for college acceptances.

it worked out great for me to go
to the University of Illinois.

That's where NCSA mosaic came out of.

I met tons of amazing people, right?

Like eBay came and recruited there, and
I made the move to Silicon Valley like.

It was great, but it wa it didn't
come from me like, you know, killing

myself to put myself in this situation.

It came from me like genuinely
doing what was right for me.

I think that's, that's where the
path should, you know, that's

how you should walk the path.

and then you get into these modes.

I'll rant on this for a second, but
like, you know, computer science,

you have to be a computer scientist.

Everybody has to be an engineer.

So everybody goes in the
same flipping direction.

It happened before with like lawyers
and doctors, that industry obviously

gets saturated and or implodes
or, you know, so much, much better

just to find your own way and

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: you think is right for you.

And you'll, you'll find a way.

Brad: that's like testament, certainly
like to the, the early web is just

full of librarians and English majors
and just like anthropologists and

just kind of like people who come in
at, from all these different angles

because there wasn't, a cow path
there, there wasn't a, a paved road.

There wasn't that doctor lawyer
type clear definition just yet.

And, and that's kind of what made.

That kind of early era,
a little beautiful.

'cause there's a ragtag group of people
who are all kind of stumbled into this new

technology that didn't have a precedent.

LukeW: Yeah.

And, and now everybody gets
so cookie cuttered, right?

Like you talk to all these quote unquote
user experience grads and they're

like, this is the user experience

Brad: Yeah,

LukeW: and I have to do this,
and why aren't you doing that?

And I'm like.

you're, you're, way too deep
into the mechanics that you're

losing the soul and the purpose.

I mean, you could say the same thing
happens in many of these disciplines

where it's like the mechanics
just start to drive it, as opposed

to, you know, the, the purpose.

Brad: And I think that that's, that's
been the just uttering complete shock to

the system for, in this moment in time.

And I feel like e especially like this
year, for a lot of folks who I think have

really hung their hat on those mechanical
aspects and, and define their career and

define their worth, uh, as, as a designer
maker through the lens of knowing a

specific framework or a specific tool
and the mechanical aspects of it, and

you're just like, wait a minute, what?

on one hand, I, I
certainly appreciate the.

The, the fear and a lot of it is
legit, you know, these are people's

livelihoods we're talking about.

But on the, on the other hand,
setting that aside, it, it is

bringing back into stark contrast.

Like, what, what is it
that we're doing here?

Why, why, why are we
making these rectangles?

Why are we, why are we
pushing this stuff around?

Why are we writing this code?

Like, why does that syntax,

LukeW: Yeah.

I mean if, if what you do as
mechanics, those can be mechanized

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: they can be automated.

Right?

And like, it shouldn't be much
of a surprise that mechanics

can be mechanized or automated.

'cause that's literally
their nature, right?

you know, if the fear of job, I think
it's people need to separate, again,

I'll, I'll use like similar terms
that I was talking about before.

Like when, when I think about design,
the most important thing I can do

help people translate their purpose.

like either interactions or communication
or visuals or what have you.

And a huge part of that is that the,
understand their purpose side, And

then kind of do all the things that
need to happen to bring that to life.

And then sure, at some point there's some
mechanics to like do the things right.

But that's really a means to the

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: And

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: I'm not troubled at
all at the means automated.

Like that's great.

That

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: do more of the other stuff

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

LukeW: actually the, the real job, right?

Brad: and that.

Part, the, the extracting the purpose
of defining values and, and, and nailing

those things down and helping people
understand the, the goals and, and

here's some dragons to watch out for.

And like, all of, like that, that
stuff that's, that's like really

important work that is, that is
like purposeful and, and pretty

human led work in a lot of respects.

But it's like that, that's like, that,
that facilitation of extracting those

things is, is really half the battle.

And, and then like you said, it's
just like that's the set it up part

and the knock it down part is getting
increasingly automatic almost.

LukeW: And, and the more of the knock
it down part that gets, you know,

quote unquote automated, the better,

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: right?

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: 'cause machines can do
certain things better than humans

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: the things that machines
can do better than human, I mean.

will poo poh all over this argument
because they have the a GI pill,

which maybe will happen, right?

Um, but you have to have a pretty
bleak view on if you believe, like the

human essence is no longer relevant,

even if it's true, like I don't
think you can have that view.

'cause at that point you're like,
well, what's the point of anything?

Right?

Brad: yeah, yeah.

It gets into to kind of just like a, a
rolling over nihilism that that is just

like, and those are all decisions too.

I think that that's, that's the big thing.

it's very difficult to talk about the
future, but it, it isn't difficult

to make choices in the here and
now, uh, one way or the other.

LukeW: Yeah, totally.

And, and, and

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: humans.

something in them, right.

drives them to do human things.

And, and I don't know if that, you
know, I just don't know how that,

you know, call it whatever you want.

I just don't see that part of it.

Some people call it a soul or whatever.

I just don't see that part
being taken over anytime soon.

Brad: Right.

LukeW: reason like, you watch like
robot and you're like, and we watch

human boxing and you pee your pants.

Brad: so a lot of this stuff, for as
long as I've known you, I feel like

there's been, just to, to use an
example, it's like web forms and you're

like, look at this long, stupid form.

This is obnoxious.

Here's a better one that's like three
fields, and now we're at the, here's

the zero fields, like this form is now
irrelevant, and then we just get the thing

that the form was there to do for free.

And so in a lot of ways you've been kind
of just like, you know, babe Ruth calling

the shot from, you know, along, you know,
over like a 15, 20 year time horizon.

So, so that much, I, I, I get, and like,
we could, we could dwell on that a little

bit, but I, I think the one thing that I'm
interested in is like, is there anything

about how this is kind of unfolding
that's like, that isn't so obvious or

something that you're like, oh, this
has been like a, a weird left turn or

something that's like super surprising
in how this is all kind of unfolding.

LukeW: Yeah, I mean, it's all
coming super duper fast and furious.

so I've lived through like, you
know, transition to PCs and then

transition to web and then transition
to mobile, blah, blah, blah.

Um, and all of those follow like
really similar patterns and similar

patterns to what's going on here.

But what's happening now that I think
is actually distinct is just the

rate at which things evolve, right?

And the.

Open question to me is how much you're
gonna benefit from seeing each step of

that evolution and understanding why it
moved from one to the other versus kind

of picking it up in its final state.

Right.

Uh, because there's a cost for sure
to being in all those evolutionary

steps happening so fast and
they're, you know, so dramatic.

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: Um, in the past I've
always felt like riding that

curve is what gave you the kind of
insights that you're describing.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: don't really know what's happening
until you're, you know, like you don't

know where the car's going until you're
reading the map is, that's a silly

analogy, but you kinda get what I mean.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yep.

LukeW: we kind of had enough time
that we could through that process.

And now it's just so fast paced because
the ability to create is so insane

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: that, uh, I don't, that's the
part, I don't know how it's gonna unfold.

Right.

pretty clear like, oh look,
computers are gonna write code.

Cool.

Oh, computers are gonna
make pictures cool.

Brad: yeah,

LukeW: making it be making them better,

Brad: yeah.

LukeW: of them.

Right?

there's probably compounding a
b capabilities of that as well.

Like, we're already
starting to see that stuff.

Like when they can do all those
things together, you'll get a bunch of

compounding capabilities and things.

But like, I, I don't know
if riding the evolutionary,

what's it called, bull, right?

Like the, the bull ride

Brad: The me, the mechanical bull.

Yeah,

LukeW: riding, the
evolutionary mechanical bull.

that's a necessary step or
not, I, I hope it's necessary.

Um, but then, you know, not a lot
of people are willing to ride that

mechanical bull and may end up in a,
in a mode where like too many things

are being dictated to them, or they end
up in this like, copy pattern world.

'cause they, you know, they don't know
why the bull got to be the way it is.

Brad: that's right and that's, that's I
think experientially felt by everyone is

that everyone's like, okay, this is new.

Depending on how many waves you've,
you've been riding, it's like, oh,

here's like another hype cycle.

Here's another, like
technological evolution.

But then it, it does feel like,
it's like, oh, this one is just,

feels like it is an everyday.

Occurrence.

And, and when you think about this, this
last one, I'm curious to get, you know,

you're talking about like PCs and, you
know, mobile and, and like just that,

that device diversity, there's still
like a hardware component to that.

And it's like how much of, of this
rate of change is to the, due to the

fact that it's like almost all aside
from the giant server farms that is

like the kind of brain behind it all.

It's like this all just kind of comes
to us like literally every single day.

It's just like, new release,
please up, please update.

here's more stuff we're
jamming down in your throat,

LukeW: things.

Yeah.

Well, it's all compounding, right?

Brad: right?

LukeW: everything is kind of layer cake.

And so the stage we're at right now just
builds on everything that came before it.

So that's why it's so accelerated.

Like without the web you
wouldn't be doing any of this,

Brad: Yep, yep.

Yep.

LukeW: without like GPUs you wouldn't
be doing any of this and so on and

so forth, and all those things.

And networking and god knows what else.

so it's all compounding and I assume
it's just gonna keep compounding.

Brad: yep.

LukeW: crazy ways.

Um, but like, Ima, the analogy
I always have is like, imagine

you were in the jungle for like
two years or three years, right?

And you left when smartphones were a
thing, and then you come back and somebody

puts like, you know, Claude in front of
you, you would be like, what the right,

you, you, you, what is this crazy magic

Brad: Right.

LukeW: that you have?

Brad: Yeah,

LukeW: like, you just wouldn't be able to
really, I mean, maybe over time you could

wrap your head around it, but you wouldn't
have gone through the process of how

Brad: yeah,

LukeW: about and it would

Brad: yeah, yeah.

LukeW: very, very and almost untouchable

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: ways.

Right?

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: Um, so

Brad: And.

LukeW: the advantage of
being in the thick of it.

Brad: For, for sure.

And, and that's like the thing, like
at a societal level, I get super

freaked out by that because it's like,
you know, we're still in an era where

a healthy percentage of the world's
population are like fall prey to just

your run of the mill phishing scams.

Like, here's, here's like the thing
that is just like, please give me your

bank account information right now.

And it's like, I gotta text, text my
granddaughter to, to, to say like.

Is this real or, or not?

And it's like, meanwhile, there's just
this, this avalanche, this daily avalanche

of two developments that it's like that,
that divide growing between, just like

I can conceptually wrap my head around
this, that the, the, the people in

the jungle, uh, the proverbial jungle
versus not, it's like that just even

in my own world, and I don't even feel
particularly like, plugged in to this.

Like, I don't understand like the, the
depths of the technology and nearly as

deep away as, as a lot of people, you
know, like in, in your realm and stuff

but I'm like, okay, like I'm trying, you
know, I'm trying to ride the mechanical

bull and I just like feel like I, anytime
I have a conversation, even with people

who have been developing for a long
time, but just haven't been as close.

To it as, as even I have been.

They're just like, wait,
what did you just do?

And I'm like, oh, like that's,

LukeW: it's

Brad: are, that's, that, that
chasm is, is is becoming obvious.

LukeW: And it, and the, the
increasing pace right, makes that

chasm grow faster and faster.

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: the capabilities you had, like,
I mean, literally last week, right?

Compared to this week.

Just today, like Codex makes PDF files
and reads word and whatever, like

Brad: yeah, yeah.

LukeW: pick any news you want.

Brad: to your point of just like
the compounding nature of it.

It's like we're so used.

To going from like a thing
to another thing, right?

It's like, oh yeah, we
used to have blackberries.

Ha ha, now there's iPhones.

And like, we could get
our head around that.

Or, oh, we used to design and
Photoshop and then we went to Sketch,

and now it's Sketch to Figma and
like we go from like a one to a one.

And I think like what we're experiencing
right now is, is this shift from like a

one-to-one, to a one to many one, one to
infinite, and oh, all of these things just

connect into each other and you get this,
this just exponential thing that our, our

human brains aren't wired to comprehend.

LukeW: Or, or it's the opposite, right?

So let me now play the other
side of the story, the like.

I didn't ride the mechanical bull.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: You know what,
to go back to web forms.

Web forms are still around
and they still suck.

You know what else sucks?

Pretty much every piece of
software that's out there.

All right.

You know, it all sucks.

Like the operating system, you're spending
all your time, like clicking on little

buttons, finding the app, clicking the
little menu, making to do things, moving

a little cursor around all it's crap,

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: right?

And like, yeah, it's amazing.

So it's how it always is, right?

Amazing.

But crap.

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: Like, let's say you come out
of the jungle and all of a sudden

you just talk and things get done.

Brad: Yeah, yeah,

LukeW: is how

Brad: yeah.

LukeW: the whole time,

Brad: Yep,

LukeW: Write me a document about how,
you know, make me a video that shows

me how to fix this thing on my bike.

it is.

Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

LukeW: why do I need
to click on any boxes?

Why do I need to go search things?

Why do I need to, you know,
navigate the web into browser?

What the hell does that even mean?

confu, it's compounding and crazy.

But on the other hand, if you kind
of play it out, right, let's just say

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: everything can be rendered in
real time, then you actually don't need

all the crud we've been building for the
past, you know, 40 years or whatever.

Brad: in a lot of ways it helps cut
that Gordian knot and, and ends up

with an interface that feels the most
natural to us, which is what we're doing

right now, which is just, you know,
having a conversation and, and only

I could say, Luke, I need you to make
me 700 PDFs right now in every, every

the 700 top languages of the world.

And then you just are like, no problem.

I got, I got, I got you, babe.

LukeW: of pdf, right?

Like let talk, talk about crappy things.

Brad: Sure, sure, sure.

But, but yeah, like,
you get the idea, right?

Like, for me, it's been very interesting
as like someone with a DHD who.

Is used to that dance of skipping
between programs and between tasks.

And I've always been, any project manager
that's ever worked with me can tell

you just what a nightmare I am when it
comes to things like, making sure that

my, what I'm working on is, is accurate
or, or recent or, or, you know, like

true, not very good in that department.

And usually it's because, man, I'm
doing more important things than,

than updating a, a status board.

But I think, like what's nice about
this moment for me, is that I am like.

Simultaneously working across
like five different repositories.

It's doing all the get shit.

For me, I've always hated that stuff.

Like with a burning passion.

I'm like, oh, and, and the people that
would like flex and show, it's like,

oh, like here's this terminal command.

Like, oh, you don't know about,

LukeW: Right.

Brad: rebase barrel roll, you
know, slice and dice, cherry pick.

And I'm like, Ugh, that's awful.

And now I'm just like,
whoops, I made a mistake.

Please fix that.

Across literally all of these five
things that are all kind of pseudo

connected to each, to each other.

And by the way, update the task board
along the way to say like, this is,

this is what's, what's going on?

And then, and it just does it.

And so like me.

As, as someone who every steam, every,
every command tab in between an app is,

is a risk for me just kind of going off
on a, on another thread, I'm now like

more just like, oh, here, here's what
I'm doing, and I'm able to stay there.

And it just is kind of just doing
the stuff and, and that's, that's

been really, really welcome and I've,
I've really enjoyed that part of it.

back to what you're saying, it's like
being on that ride, I'm able to at least

articulate and have a general gist of
like, what's going on behind the curtain.

And I think that that is helping
me be able to like, articulate

some things that I wouldn't
otherwise be able to articulate.

LukeW: I mean, every tool you
need to learn how to use, right?

And so, like, I think that's an
important piece of even these super

advanced tools that they're not perfect.

I don't think anything will be perfect.

So you kind of have to know where the
hard parts in this, you know, the, the

soft spots and the hard, hard spots are.

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: Um, and that helps you
become a better administrator,

user manager, whatever term
you want to use of the things.

Brad: I'm curious to get
your take on the open web.

cause it's, it's getting
me in all the feels there.

LukeW: what I found is like
what everybody predicts.

Oftentimes something else happens in, in,
in the, these sorts of situations, right?

Everyone's like, oh, the web's gonna die.

like what I see around me is people who
used to have blogs and stop blogging, all

of a sudden they're all blogging again

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: and they're

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: and they're
active and they're right.

They're like back in it.

you know, the consensus view
is like no one's gonna do that.

Um, similarly, there's this
consensus view that a software

engineering jobs are gonna go away.

What I see is more people trying
to hire software engineers 'cause

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: do more and they're more excited
about things to be able to build.

And, um, so I'm not so worried about.

You know, individuals wanting to
express themselves in various ways

and put what they either make or
think or do or know out there.

I think that's another core
human thing that's just gonna

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: happening.

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: If anything, the web was
dying like five years ago there

was nothing interesting happening
in terms of technology, right?

Like maybe people were talking about
crypto a little bit, but beyond that was,

but now like everybody's experimenting,
everybody's building, everybody's sharing

what they're learning, everybody's

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: things.

If anything, it's almost like an overload.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: there's too much,
look at this thing I made.

Look at this thing I made look right?

Like back to our earlier conversations,
it's like, it's like the opposite.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

LukeW: and more being
created than ever before,

Brad: and that's just by the humans.

And, that sentence is, that's the
actual thing that gives me word.

'cause everything you just said,
I'm like, yeah, I'm here for it.

Like, sign me up, give me more
weird ass experi experiments.

Give me more.

Like, here's this thing that like,
has just been gnawing at my brain

forever, and I finally have the,
the means to, to articulate it.

Uh, that stuff's awesome and
I want that like forever.

LukeW: Yeah,

Brad: I think it's the, it's the flood
of the, uh, you know, the, the former,

uh, SEO optimizer that, that is like
gets access to a nuclear weapon.

That's, that's, that's
what I, that's what I,

LukeW: yeah,

Brad: what I'm worried about.

LukeW: let me give you two concrete.

Examples of things,

Brad: Okay.

LukeW: as, as examples and, but also
as maybe as like thought exercise.

We launched a company like a year ago
called Rev, which has its own image

models, creates all these things, right?

And when we first launched
it, we had the domain rev.art.

Brad: Okay.

LukeW: buy the.com, whatever.

We launched it the next day.

There was hundreds of sites like Rev
Art com, rev ai, like hundreds of them.

And they basically just like made a fake
ui, stuck a little credit card thing on

it and put a crappy, like stable diffusion
image, uh, model behind the scenes.

because we were getting a bunch of
press and people were, you know,

writing about it and talking about it
everywhere, there was literally instantly

like a hundred things out there,

Brad: Oh my God.

LukeW: A, I didn't think it was
gonna be that fast and that furious,

like in, retrospect, like duh.

Right, makes sense.

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: are gonna use the tools
just the same way the good

guys are gonna use the tools.

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: But you know, you know now
every time we do a launch, we kind

of buy up some of the adjacent
domains and we're cognizant of it.

We know how to do take downs.

It just becomes another part
of doing business, right?

Brad: Yeah,

LukeW: think the bad stuff, why,
where I'm going with that example is

I think like the bad malicious stuff.

always like the coders, code
breakers thing and it's been

Brad: sure.

LukeW: tussle forever.

So people

Brad: Right,

LukeW: new things and
we're gonna bring 'em back.

Then they're gonna try new things.

We're gonna reign 'em back.

You know, like when's the last
time somebody that uses Gmail?

You can't say this about
Outlook, complained about spam.

Like pretty much just all goes
to the spam box and it's great.

There're still, if you look
in the spam box, geez, they're

still trying like crazy, right?

But it doesn't affect my life.

Brad: right, right.

LukeW: kind of taken care of it.

Again, I can't say the same
for Outlook 'cause I looked

in someone's outlook recently.

I was like, oh my God.

Um, like in the context of Gmail,

Brad: Yeah,

LukeW: is, you know, basically gone.

Brad: yeah, yeah.

LukeW: you know, we'll we will
have similar countermeasures.

They'll break 'em, then
we'll be, um, what have

Brad: Yep.

Yep.

LukeW: that's kinda one angle
about the, the bad guys.

I think people, there's many, many
people out there that are fight

it and do a pretty damn good job.

I've seen it firsthand

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: lot of these big companies.

And the other kind of example is
I've been poking at this writing

process recently 'cause I blog
and I probably don't blog enough.

But what I've started to do now is
I just talk, I record it, use like a

model on my, uh, computer that does
real time translation as I talk, right.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: that.

Blah, blah, blah.

it into, um, an AI model that has a
skill or a prompt, or whatever you

wanna call it, that's basically been
trained by reading all of my previous

writings over the years to write like me.

And so I'm like, take this, write like
me and I get something, and then I'll

go in and edit it and change it a bit.

And I'll ask like, Hey, give me
like 10 ways to write this, and I'll

pick some part of it that I like and
I'll stick it in there and whatever.

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: Did I write that?

I mean, yes.

And also no o

Brad: yep,

LukeW: so

Brad: yep.

LukeW: another piece of it, right?

Just because the bots are involved and
there's clankers doesn't necessarily

mean it's not, you know, human.

and

Brad: Right.

LukeW: stuff is gonna
be all over the place

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: the tools just enable it.

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: net net, like I can do more right

Brad: Yep,

LukeW: than I

Brad: yep,

LukeW: to do before.

Brad: yep.

LukeW: now some people just be like,
Claude, write a thing and publish it.

But like that

Brad: Right.

LukeW: previous example
that I was kind of talking

Brad: Yep, Yeah, and I, I think that, that
you're, you're picking at the, just what's

been such a theme is that it, it does
just feel, it's, it's just such a common

theme of, I feel like every conversation
I have is, it's just like this.

This caveman level, binary one or
zero is like AI bad or AI good,

you know, is it doesn't cut it.

And, and I, I think that that's been
a lot of my fun has been to basically

go check this out and to like, look
literally just, you know, right before

we joined, I just had like a session,
uh, working with Melissa and her,

uh, boss who's the, who's the owner
of this counseling practice, right?

Where, and we were co-creating and kind of
mouth coding their new website together.

And they're, she is talking about the con,
I was like, let's, let's talk about the

contact form because it's like that's,
you know, the front door for people

who are trying to get mental healthcare
We're like, we obviously want it to be

a lot more accessible and friendlier
than it currently is, which, uh, as, as

a web web form person, you wanna talk
about some, some lousy, lousy forms, uh,

whew, uh, leaves a lot to be desired.

So we're like, okay, let's like,
friendly this up, but let's also like

pick at this a little bit, right?

Because these are all people that are
in varying states of, of, you know,

vulnerability and like, we need to be
like really, really, you know, delicate

with like, and, you know, hold their
hand and guide them through, but not

like overwhelm them and all this stuff.

And she just happened to, to mention.

She was like, well, yeah, and like
for, for this part with like the, you

know, if we are soliciting a phone
number, she's like, well we gotta be

careful about that because there's,
you know, people like domestic violence

situations and other things where
it's like to, for us to call them back

LukeW: Right.

Brad: a, a huge safety thing.

And so what we did in that moment
and in that exact moment, I'm

just like, okay, we're just
recording this on in Notion right?

As like, like the meeting notes.

But we have Claude code running
hooked up to the website.

I'm like, oh, Andrew just brought
up a really great point about this.

And it was just like,
this changes everything.

And it was just like, here's like these
like seven things that should happen.

And she was just like, holy shit.

She was like that.

She was like, that's that's amazing.

Yes.

Oh my God.

Yes.

Oh my God.

Yes.

not to, not to pat myself on the back
and not that I'm like, particularly

like I, I'm not like some like AI
evangelist, but I, but I do see, see

like that real value in there and she,
up until we kind of started talking was

like pretty allergic to, to all of that.

To the point of like, she's
like, I'm gonna get a dumb phone.

Like, I'm, I'm kind of sick of all
if shit like, I'm gonna go just

throw everything in the river.

And, and so to, to kind of go from that
to like, here's this thing that's like

born of a real human desire to protect
people and keep them safe and to like,

you know, be, be welcoming and to have
this thing that sort of supercharges

the, the humanity of that experience.

She's like, okay.

She's like, oh, all right.

LukeW: it's a tool, man.

Like, you

Brad: Yeah,

LukeW: you can use the tool for good,
you can use the tool for bad, right?

But

Brad: yeah,

LukeW: it's weird to hate a tool.

I, I mean, maybe there's some that you
can hate that are like, particularly bad.

I don't wanna name any, right?

But general, it's a tool

Brad: yeah, yeah.

LukeW: out of it what you put into it,

Brad: Right.

LukeW: real thing, right?

yeah, that, that's kind
of my whole take on it.

It's hard for me to like
seethe about this stuff.

When you have examples like that and
when you, yourself experience like

what it can actually do for you,

Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I, and that, and that's just it.

It's like I, I, I think,
you know, whatever, as out.

Visiting California last time.

That's, that was, we got into that.

It's just like, yeah, we, it's
like we have to be able to, to

hold these multiple thoughts in
our, in our heads at the same time.

And again, that's just like, kind
of been just a theme of all of this.

It's like, it's like there's a, there's
a lot of real, there's a lot of real

dangerous and scary shit that comes
with this territory, and it's gonna

take like a lot of like active work
to, to mitigate that stuff and to,

to right those wrongs and to do those
things and like, that's all valid.

And, and, uh, you know, the, the, the
curing cancer part, the ability to, to

see, to a level, uh, by extrapolating,
you know, like you've, you've digested

thousands upon thousands upon thousands
of X-rays, and you're now able to

detect cancers before, you know, any
human eye could ever see it before.

Like, like, that's real.

LukeW: It is pretty

Brad: That is real.

It'd be real.

So, so yeah, it's, it's, it's fascinating.

But like, you've, so you've been like
close to practitioners for so long, right?

Like, as like a practitioner yourself,
but then like, also someone who's

just like, kind of around it and like,
like a certain, we'll say like a, the.

The, the general zeitgeist of like, kind
of like the design and, and dev world,

and your bullshit detector has always
been, something that's both been very

entertaining and also often very true.

LukeW: I like the entertaining part.

Brad: yeah.

I mean, you know, it's, it's great.

It's great.

But like, but like in this moment in time,
like when we have those, those shifts,

uh, like what we were talking about
earlier with, with like the kind of like

fixation on tools and, and now that's
even being superimposed onto, it's like

just even like these, these AI models,
it's like it, at some level you gotta be

like, you do realize that like sweating
this level of, of detail on like, it's

this specific model that is going to
change like literally next week, like.

Like you do, you do realize
what, what a trap that is.

Like, I guess like do you,
do you see that as well?

Where it's like, like that,
that kind of like fixation on

the, the sort of like trees?

Uh,

LukeW: Yeah, for sure.

Brad: yeah,

LukeW: I, I mean, people love
to make, so I, I see a bunch of

patterns I have all the time.

A, there's people who love to make.

generalized platform, and
you're like, what is it for?

It's for everything, right?

Like this, that's more
possible now than ever.

So those people kind of have a, a

Brad: yeah,

LukeW: ground to stand on.

Brad: yeah.

LukeW: Um, but like
that's always been true.

You can do anything
with it, what have you.

And then there's people that f that have
the opposite thing, which fixated it.

That one finger, it is six fingers.

It's, it's terrible.

This whole thing's

Brad: Throw it out.

LukeW: fingers, throw it out.

Right?

So you have like both of those
worlds, or I guess mental models

or something like that, right?

Um, but like the Six Fingers thing,
you know, I remember so vividly

I was at Netflix talking about
mobile in like 2000 something.

I don't know what the heck.

Right?

And like the lead PM's, like, nobody's
gonna watch videos on their phone.

I'm like, okay.

And then I was at eBay and they're
like, nobody's ever gonna buy, you

know, expensive stuff on their phone.

I'm, mm. Okay.

a lot of this like, ain't gonna never

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: know, people know and they
work on it and they fix it and

technology keeps getting better, right?

Brad: Yeah, yeah.

LukeW: So I, I, I think that's the
mental model to have for that part.

And then the universal platform piece,
like, I don't know, it's you, we

still have, we have specialized things
for nearly everything in our lives.

There's not like a kitchen
gadget that does everything,

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: right?

We have an oven and we have a, a
frying pan and we have instant pot.

If anything, like things get
more and more specialized, the

more capable they are, right?

Because they like, um, do
something like really, really well.

And so you're like, oh, I'll pick

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

LukeW: I have the choice.

Uh, so we'll see.

Uh, I'm sort of more of that camp,

Brad: Of like, of like, there's gonna
be like sort of specialized, like I,

I think that that it's less, it's less
even about like the compounding, but more

about just like the interoperability of
this stuff that is just like, everything

could be hooked into everything, where
it's like there's inputs and outputs

and then it's just kind of like, where
does something start versus, versus end.

And that's where it's like, that's,
that's been one of the things that we've

been picking at in our course where it's
just like, you know, to look at the, the

double diamond process and to look at
like, oh yes, here's like this specific

workflow that, that, and this is how
you design and build digital software.

And now it's just like, it's, we just
kind of draw this like big just amorphous

ball of, you know, moving, shifting stuff.

'cause it's just.

It, there's an in you, you could,
you could moonwalk your way backwards

to, to the beginning of the process.

Like it's, it's just, it, it all kind
of just is this weird omnidirectional

thing now that, that doesn't feel like
there's like a fixed point in time.

And I think that that, that it is both
liberating as well as like unmooring

and unnerving for a lot of people
who, who welcome some structure,

LukeW: good for me.

I never learned what the double
diamond is, so like, I, I tend to

live in that amorphous thing all

Brad: it's, yeah.

LukeW: project, you know,
I, I deal with right?

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: emerging from
literally like a person.

And in, in those situations,
99.99% of everything is unknown.

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: Who's gonna buy this?

How are they gonna use it?

What's it gonna be called?

How's it gonna be built?

Who are we gonna hire or how are they
gonna, like, everything is unknown, right?

Um, and so like you, you don't have a
process because every person is different.

Every moment in time is different.

And so like what you have is to go back
to my earlier analogy, you have a tool,

tool chest, and you're like, oh, I'm gonna
reach for this here because that seems

to fit this here and I'm gonna reach for
that here because that seems to be the

thing that can move us to the next step.

Um, and like that, that is an
interesting way to think about

kind of this unified thing.

The, the problem with that though
becomes an awareness situation.

So just again, tangible example, I'll,
I find it helps to ground these things.

we have a company that's building
this, like agentic in the cloud thing,

and you can basically like talk to it
and it'll go set up an agent for you.

It'll connect it to a bunch of tools.

Those tools can do things.

You can tell it to do stuff.

And like the hard part becomes like, wait.

What's, what's going on?

What's it connected to?

What does it see?

Wait, what did it just do?

Right?

You're constantly in like probing
mode, which is like a really crappy

user experience actually, because
like it's this and it's somewhere

over there and you don't know, right?

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: you're like, what, what?

And like probing through
text continuously is not

Brad: No.

LukeW: wonderful.

Brad: Yeah,

LukeW: Um, and so I think there will
be some other kinds of affordances

that you need to make sense of stuff,
especially as the tasks these things

start to do become increasingly important.

Let me, actually, I'll show you something.

Brad: please.

LukeW: 'cause I feel like we've
been talking too long, so I'm

gonna just give you a picture.

All right, cool.

Go over to Slack.

Okay.

So Amelia just sh sent me this little
thing inside this app we're working on.

So she has this little prototype
that kind of gives you an overview of

everything that's happened in a workspace.

And so you can see over here, you've
got like the routes and the pages,

and you can make your way through it.

And here's all the different UI
components, and here's all the static

assets that are in there, and you
can just mouse over them and get a

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: it, right?

And now you can click into the
routes and pages thing and you can

see, you know, what's in there.

Um, and I, I think we're gonna need
these kinds of things, This is very

specific to like a coding project

Brad: Sure.

LukeW: where you can, you
know, this type of organization

makes a lot of sense for that.

Like, here's your scripts,
here's your utilities.

And like you kinda get this, you
know, oh you can, right there,

you can see an agent working.

You see actually the two, three
agents in here working, there's

the little icons, the yellow one,
the blue one, and the green one.

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: they kinda like, you can be
like, oh, what's this guy doing now?

And how's, oh, and then from
there you like click in and

see what changes he made and

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: you.

Now I'm looking at like a whole
bunch of before and after things.

And so I think that kind of
stuff this is just me, right?

I, I think we're gonna need something
like that all these very capable systems.

' cause

Brad: I, yes.

Like wholesale.

Yes.

it's talking to, with my friend Dan
Donald, who does a lot of great stuff,

and he is been kind of doing a lot
of, yeah, just these, these kind.

Multiagent, uh, things, and I'm
sure you've, you've seen these, it's

like, oh, it's like, here's this
whole, whole business that's just

like nothing but these autonomous,
you know, like bots or whatever.

This isn't what Dan's talking
about, but it is like you have this

orchestration of a bunch of these
computers that, yeah, again, there's

just kinda a aware of activity
that you're just kind of like, ugh.

So what he did was he like spun up like a
whole slack, like for them and he is able

to like, see their conversations with one
another and like, and I'm like, that's

pretty cool 'cause you're like super
posing uh, these things that we're already

like, using ourselves and you, you kind
of get this like, at least some sort of

visibility like through into these, like
this different world but through the lens

of something that feels familiar to to us.

So I think that that's
stuff like that is fun.

LukeW: it's funny you bring that up.

Like the trend right now seems
to be like, oh yeah, talk to

all your agents through Slack.

And my reaction is like,
show me one Slack bot.

Over the past, you know, like 15
years that has actually worked.

Like I literally, everybody
built a Slack bot.

Every single software

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

LukeW: built a Slack bot.

Brad: yeah,

LukeW: them

Brad: yeah.

LukeW: right?

Brad: I, I welcome the, the kind
of like, just like, it's like read

only where it's just like, oh,
yeah, my eyeballs are already here.

I don't, it's like, it's less of a,
like, interactive thing and more of

a like, like a, oh, yeah, I see this.

LukeW: get commit happened, you know, that

Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

LukeW: stuff, but like the, as
soon as you start talking to one of

those things, you run into exactly
the problem that I was describing.

You're like, like, go
do this thing, and it's

Brad: Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

LukeW: I don't know about this.

And you are like, what is this?

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: right.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's, what's, what's quite fun is
seeing, this new crop of tools try to

feel their way into user interface design.

Because at first it was just kinda like,
so here's the, here's just like the

terminal, or here's like this thing.

And then it's like, ah, let's like
introduce this into the mix and then,

ah, yes, we could like on the fly,
bring this in here and then, ah,

we'll put some tabs here, I guess.

And then two days later it's
like, ah, now they're over here.

And ah, this is like this,
but not in this mode.

And, and, uh, anyways, go back
to the terminal and we'll kind of

like we're just back to ASCI art.

LukeW: Comes back to what
we were talking about

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: I don't think the
final form is settled.

Right.

And like other examples of this is.

Where does like context and
information live in these systems?

You can like have an
agent with instructions.

You can have some system
prompt for instructions.

You can have some memories.

You can have some skills.

You can be connected to a bunch of mcps.

All of those can have different
tools that they're calling,

And like what is affecting what

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: in time

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: is actually a big challenge and
it's actually, it's pretty damn critical

for like getting the output that you want.

Brad: Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

It's like, it's like, yeah, this stuff
is increasingly being hooked up to pretty

like mission critical kind of things.

And so, yeah, so that,
that kind of, where's the,

LukeW: What's

Brad: the trust, that re reliability,
visibility, all of like that stuff that,

uh, an entire freaking industry has been
built on, on things like monitoring and.

vulnerability testing and you know, all
of that stuff that it's like, is the

stuff that, once again, I'm like, man,
I'm glad somebody's doing that 'cause

that sounds like an awful job to me.

But like, I'm glad that some
people are like turned on by

that 'cause, 'cause it's needed.

LukeW: Let me show one more thing.

Again, it's always better to
look at pictures of things here.

Sorry about all this shenanigans.

So this is the backend of
my, uh, ask Luke service.

so you can see somebody asked this
question and like, here's the response

and what is super useful here is I can
open up this thing and it shows me like

all the things that it used to respond.

here it used this like blog thing
that scored pretty significantly.

I can see specifically the part
of it that it dropped in there.

Right.

I can see over here it like rejected this
because it's too similar to other things.

Uh, see.

This is coming from saved questions.

There should be some things
from videos maybe, I don't know.

But you, you get the idea, right?

Like all of

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: this is just a pretty
simple system, which is going

through all my stuff and putting
it together, but already like look

at all the stuff that's in the mix.

Brad: Again, it's like th 30 years
of, of, of writing, of, of putting

yourself out there, of, of expressing
yourself and, and kind of back

to, is that me or, or, or not?

It's, there, there is some like really
interesting terrain there, because you

can say is that, Weirdly, like misusing my
humanity or is that scaling my humanity?

And I think that you can make a
pretty sound argument for, for

the latter, but also the, the
former is like, also like, yeah.

It's an interesting
philosophical question, I think.

And the fact that you, you did it,
you know, it's like this was done,

you know, of your own volition.

I think that that matters.

I think that like, and that's what
irks so many about, you know, how

their work just got like kinda
hoovered up and then put into the Borg.

LukeW: two things.

Two things.

Number one, uh, the point I was trying
to make of that was like knowing what

influences the answer is super important.

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: Right.

And so like to determine whether or not
it actually sounds like me or something,

I would say like I need to see the things
it's using to generate the answers,

which is what that whole UI is about.

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: point around the, like, it hoovered
up my stuff, again, just to sort of

do it a thought exercise here, right?

Like I've read, I don't know how many
books about design I've listened to.

I don't know how many

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: I answer you,
is that really like me?

And if you ask me to trace, like
the thing you just said about web

design, like where did that come from?

I have no

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: of answering that, right?

Brad: Yep,

LukeW: a lifetime of reading,
learning, listening, talking, whatever.

Brad: yep, yep.

LukeW: like my, my counter argument
to that is like, it's exactly the

same thing the machines are doing.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: reading all the stuff, they're
listening to all the articles, and

when it comes time for them to respond.

Right.

They're not like, oh, I'm gonna
copy Luke here and steal his stuff.

They're like, here's all the things I've
seen and read and heard about this topic,

and I'm gonna put it all together into
response just the same way a human would.

So if I were, personally, this is my
personal take, and I know a lot of

people will like throw crosses at me for
this, but like if I accused these deep

learning models of stealing and cheating,
then I'm stealing and cheating, right?

Like, I'm reappropriating people's work.

I've hoovered up all these books
and articles, and now I am, you

know, falsely profiting from
them when I write my article.

Brad: it's,

LukeW: like a controversial take,
but like again, I, you know, the, it

Brad: no,

LukeW: sense to me that that
is the same process and it's

move forward, right.

Brad: well, and it's, and that's just it.

It's like, it's like no one person on
earth has, has walked the exact path,

uh, as you, and it really is the, the sum
of, of all of your lived experience that.

Leads you to this very moment in time.

Right.

To, to have, to hold these views
to, say the things you're saying.

Right.

And that's, that's I think
like the, the beauty of, the

human experience is that Yep.

There, you know, I'm in the land of
Mr. Rogers and it's like, you know,

there's only one of you and you know,
you're special just the way you are.

LukeW: there's some part of Mr.
Rogers somewhere in your brain.

You heard some show as
a kid and Right, and

Brad: Exactly.

LukeW: the word that
just came outta my mouth.

Brad: Yep, yep, yep.

I think though though too
that there's the, the movies.

You went to the theater and
paid the, paid the, the cost of

admission to, to go see that movie.

And yes, like you, you saw that, but it's
like, you know, the, you, you, you paid

the, the price tag or you saw, you know,
you saw that band and you, you, you paid

the money versus, you know, like the,
the things that are on the open web, and

this is the, the bit that has me like
really conflicted is that it's like, yep.

Like, I've been writing on the web and
putting that stuff freely out there.

I put my book out there for free so that
when the Atlantic came out with their

thing of like, Hey, you could like look
up if your work got absorbed by this

stuff and used in the training data.

Sure enough, there's my book and I'm
cool with that because I put it out

there for free for people to read.

But like, I also could really appreciate
the people that are like, wait, I wrote

that and didn't do that, and I like
put it out there for money to buy.

And so to find your way into
one of those databases feels,

feels a little treacherous.

LukeW: again, I'll play the bad guy here.

I'll, I'll say two more
things just to be a bad guy.

There's, you know, Limewire
and fricking Napster

Brad: mm-hmm.

LukeW: people stealing music,

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: going and stealing music.

I took your thing instead of
paying for it, I took it and

I have it now and I, right.

but that's different than like,
I've listened to 50,000 songs

and now I'm making new songs.

Those are, in my mind,
those are two different

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: things.

Right.

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: then my other controversial
statement I've made too now, so I'll make

a third one, is like, I personally feel
blessed and privileged if like these giant

libraries of Alexandria read my shit and
it influences what billions of people are

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: as a response.

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: Like

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: so I would pay
money to be included.

Right?

Please include me in your training
data because I spent all this time

putting my thoughts out there.

I don't want to be not part of that.

Like when the giant machine thinks, I
would love for it to think about the

thing, you know, like web forms suck.

Please have that perspective.

Brad: Yeah.

Yep,

LukeW: you

Brad: yep.

LukeW: I feel I'd be doing myself
and other people disservice

by saying, no, pull me out.

Right?

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: again, those three things are
controversial, but that's, you know,

Brad: It's,

LukeW: on that side of the argument.

Brad: what's interesting is that this
brings up like, I think a, a path forward

that I think is like very interesting.

That gets to the heart of, it's
like there's a lot of that,

again, just that, that binary
thinking of like this good, bad.

I think that what you're saying is, is
it's like, yes, here's all this stuff

that you've been spending your entire
career trying to steer towards better

outcomes, and that the more that becomes
a default, uh, way of, of thinking, right?

The more that your influence
influences a machine that ends up

influencing the, the trajectory of
things that could be really, really.

Amazing.

And one of the things that, that I'm
starting to pick at with, with a few

people now is, is that opportunity and
back to this democratization and this,

this more inclusive and participatory
process of like, you might not be a

professional designer or you might not
know how to make websites or you might

not know how to write code and like the
terminal might look scary to you, but

like, are you able to articulate goodness?

Are you able to like articulate
like a vision for a better world?

And like, I think what's very,
very fascinating about this

moment of time is that you have
organizations that have been doing.

The hard work, like the, the United
Nations and stuff like trying to

eradicate poverty and feed people and
like, you know, promote peace and,

and, and harmony and all this stuff.

And it's like they don't
have super deep pockets.

So they've been like reliant on, you know,
designers and, and developers and stuff

who are foregoing that the opportunities
provided, uh, by, by Silicon Valley or, or

certain things to, you know, that that's
what they're, they're relying on, on that

kind of, that type of designer developer
to, to kind of like help them along.

And that's amazing.

But I think what's really
fascinating is that it is possible

to steer the, the whole machine.

In the art, in the direction of
that, and, and that kind of sits on

top of the, the, the core apparatus
of how this stuff came to be.

Right?

But what, what has started to emerge
is this idea of, you know, harnessing

and, you know, being able to just kind
of guide it in a certain direction.

And it's like, well, what does it look
like to just be like, put a har giant

harness on the whole thing that's just
like, here's these things that we're

not going to agree on universal truths
when it comes to ethics or morality.

But there are some things we
could do, we could give, we could

put some numbers to that shit.

Like, we could basically be like.

Love with the golden rule might be like
the one, like unifying, you know, thing

across any spiritual tradition or, or,
or philosophy or like, whatever that is.

Just like promoting a, a healthy,
continued direction for, for

humanity in the world at large.

And to basically go, okay,
let's put that harness on there.

And then there's some other stuff that
sits on top of it where it's like,

ah, you might have people forking that
and saying, ah, I believe in gender

equality, but, but not in this way.

Or, or whatever.

And you could basically
be like, that's fine.

We don't need consensus on it.

But like, you could spell it all out.

Just lay it all out there, MCP it up,
and then just like, you know, basically

be like, everything sits on top of this.

So that like any, any.

A piece of software that gets like
written like is, is hooked into this

thing that's ultimately steering
towards like better outcomes.

LukeW: It's kinda what Claude's
constitution is trying to do.

The, the problem

Brad: It's kind of weak.

It's kind of, it's kind of
like vague though, I guess.

So, sorry.

Uh,

LukeW: yeah, it, I said trying to do,
but the problem is the stuff gets baked

in at like the model level, right?

And there's like levels of
influence that things have.

And so like the stuff baked in at
the model level is always gonna

have stronger influence at things
like at the prompt level or at the

Brad: yep,

LukeW: level or anything like that,

Brad: yep,

LukeW: So you effectively have to be
one of these model makers to have that

Brad: yep.

LukeW: of impact.

I, I actually think there's, I, I've
posted some stuff on this in the past

and I think it continues to be a problem.

Like the fact that everything is steered
towards helpful assistant is not helpful.

Like a helpful assistant is a personality
that is beneficial to have in your life.

Sometimes, maybe always, but you
also want like contrarian professor.

That's like, yeah, that's bullshit.

Like don't

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: Right?

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: you all, you know, you just want
like these different types of personas

make you feel uncomfortable.

That's okay, that's good, right?

Like that helps you grow.

You

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: most when you feel emotions
than when you're just riding

the serotonin train all the

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: stuff I studied
way back in college.

We studied these like modes of dialogue
I thought were really interesting.

'cause there's like conversation,
but there's also debate.

also inquiry, right?

There's all these like different
ways people talk to, uh,

get to different outcomes.

And we've really standardized on this.

You're absolutely right.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

LukeW: Kind of persona, which is a pers
again, great, to have something like that.

But probably need more.

Brad: that part and back to that,
that kind of growing chasm in between,

you know, the, the people who sort
of even have a vague understanding

of how the stuff comes to be.

And as the stuff is starting to get
more and more accurate, more and more

realistic, more and more believable, and
you just have, we're we're just orders

of magnitude out of our depths when it
comes to just like kind of perception

and, you know, again, back to like the
phishing scams and stuff like that.

It's like, boy, oh boy, like, as this
stuff just yeah, continues to just feed

you nothing but what you want to hear.

That's, that's pretty
like damaging writ large.

LukeW: then it becomes the Facebook feed.

Brad: It becomes the Facebook
here comes, here comes the, the,

the red pill or the whatever.

Yeah.

It's like they just like, wait.

I, I think that you're right.

And that's, this is where it's like
If you throw that stuff out, be

willing to sit with like, you know, it
getting thrown back at you and stuff.

And like, like you said, it's like that
is, that's, that's the healthy friction

LukeW: yeah.

Brad: of, of growth and, 100% possible
to design that you just like, like it's,

it's, it's easy to do at the user level.

But I think that what you're saying is,
again, like that, that kind of model

level is, is such like a, the, the thing
that's really setting the defaults, right?

Like these are, these are like the,
the smart defaults as they were, or

maybe not so smart defaults and when

LukeW: of the thing, right?

You can't, it's tough to
change the core once it's

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's fascinating.

there's some like interesting, there's
some really interesting stuff, but I

think, um, you know, Maggie Appleton.

LukeW: Mm-hmm.

Brad: Yeah, she's, she's awesome.

She did, she did a really great, article
on kind of some of the stuff on just

kind of how, how to intentionally, uh,
sculpt, like steer towards those, you

know, controversial professors or, or,
uh, you know, things that are, that are

like actively kind of arguing against
you and stuff and, and kind of putting.

LukeW: bit, but it's not, it's not, you

Brad: Yeah, it tries real hard.

It tries real hard to come back.

And it's like, there, there's a
lot of stuff that it's like, it's,

it's a very, very fascinating
material to, to work with.

'cause you're just like,
I'm like, no, no, no.

Like, I need you to only
build the UI using my shit.

Like, please do not, and ever,
ever invent any other thing.

And it's like, there's, there's so much,
you know, you know the story of, um, van

Halen and the green m and ms. Oh really?

LukeW: I don't

Brad: Mr. Green.

Okay.

Van Halen on their tour Rider?

Yeah.

On the rider.

You know about this?

So they had on their rider it's like.

In the dressing room before the show,
we want the bowl of m and ms with

all the green m and ms picked out.

Right.

And it's just like on at face value.

It's just like, oh, look at that.

rock and roll lifestyle.

They don't give a shit.

You know, all of that stuff, you
know, just, just total rock and roll.

But that was their, that was their signal
that whenever they got to that dressing

room and if that, those m and ms had the
green ones in there, that meant that they

didn't read The rider and, and on the
rider were a bunch of really important

safety related, like stage safety things,
pyrotechnics, like all this other stuff.

And so that was the signal
that it's like, yep.

You, you didn't do your job.

And so, so for me, I, my, my signal is
at the, the beginning and the end of all

of my interactions with these things,
I have it spit out just these total

non-sequitur, that, that are just like,

LukeW: to you.

So the, the one, the, the challenge
you run there though is as the systems

become more quote unquote intelligent,

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: they like interpret
the instructions as opposed

to taking them literally.

Right.

And there's benefit to that.

So they could be like, yeah,
it's kind of silly for me to

say quack at the end of this.

Why am I gonna do that?

It's much better for me
to blink any blink, right.

Brad: it's been interesting.

I've like caught some bugs where it's
like, if I start in with like, like

if I'm like starting with like a voice
thing, it will, it will not catch the,

the, like my, like user settings or
whatever, and then it will just like,

kind of start going and, and it's like,
oh, there's, there's my green m and ms.

Uh, but yeah, so I have these,
uh, the astral badger has

signed your waveform parchment.

The anvil politely refuses the cloud.

The salmon of persistence swims upstream
through the cascade of intention.

LukeW: I, I had this guy, I brought up
the quack, who was like complaining to us.

I can't remember which product.

He was like, it, it doesn't work because
I explicitly told it to say quack at

the end of every thing, and it doesn't.

I'm like, well, did it do
everything that you asked it to?

Yeah, great job.

It even like invented this
stuff, but it didn't quack.

Brad: Did it quack?

LukeW: right.

But like, you know, like if you're
talking to a human and you're like

working with this engineer and you like,
want him to quack every time he writes

code for you, he's gonna be like f you.

Brad: It's

LukeW: gonna

Brad: it's the, it's the rubber ducking.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The, the real rubber ducking the turkin.

LukeW: Turkin.

That's right.

I'm not gonna squeeze the
turkin every time I'm done.

the other part that gets where some of
that stuff is actually useful, right?

There's so many different places
nowadays where you can influence.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: I have a skills file, I have like
custom agents, I got a system prompt, I

have memories, I got a bunch of files,
agents, MD files sitting in my wrote repo.

like this comes back again to
like, what is driving what,

Brad: What's, what's what?

Yep.

LukeW: you can

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: into a zone where it's
unclear what's influencing what.

To go back to my little example of
the Ask Luke thing, um, I, I feel

like this is another place where
things haven't really coalesced.

Like everybody keeps throwing out yet.

Another thing that influences the
behavior of these models after a while,

like you get into this like hot mess of
things all over the place and sometimes

you don't even know that they're there
you forget that they're there and

they, you know, can have a really big
impact on what you're getting out on

the other side, which is all is pretty
big deterrent for new people, right?

They come in, they're like,
what skill, like system

prompt, what is all this stuff?

Brad: and behind all of this
is this like kind of Yeah.

Everyone's feeling around in the dark.

These, the, the makers of these things
are in this arms race, like brick

neck competition with one another,
trying to throw everything out at

the wall and, and all of that stuff.

But it does get into the, the, the
standards tracks, you know, the,

whether it's the railroad ties
or, or web standards or whatever.

It's like, it's like some of this
dust will, will start to settle.

Some of these conventions will, will
take root while others will fade away.

But back to kind of where we kind of
started was, or, or, or early on was like

the, the pace of this stuff, it's like
by the time this thing gets standardized,

there's gonna be these whole other
different kinds of hula hoops and stuff

that we're, that we're jumping through.

So it's, it's.

LukeW: things are changing.

Too much to standardize, right?

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

LukeW: time to pull in the reins
because we don't, again, we

don't know the final form yet.

We're like iterating through it right now.

Brad: how, how confident are you
that there will be a final form?

Like I am, I'm like less like convinced
by the day that it's like, this is

gonna just like kind of peter out.

Or, or, or stabilize.

LukeW: you sort of know what a website is.

You sort of know what
a mobile app is, right?

There's flexibility,

picture in your head and you
roughly know the pieces and the

parts and how they fit together.

that's kind of the way
I think about it, right?

I think there's gonna be
like this sort of shape.

Brad: a shape of it.

Yeah.

LukeW: show is?

Brad: Yep.

That's interesting.

It, it does feel though, uh, just again,
back to its, its, its nature that it's

like, and, and, and kind of back to what
you were showing a little earlier about

like the, the need for some form of, of
visualization that it's like, yeah, like

it just kind of, by its very nature, this
thing is just this like fuzzy, amorphous,

cloud concept that, that just like, it's
that that itself makes it just weird.

It's like with, with websites all the
way back to your mosaic days, it's like,

oh, that's kinda like a brochure and
we can just like bring that thing in.

LukeW: To be fair, like that's
not where it started, right?

Brad: sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

LukeW: for us to figure out what websites.

be like, the earliest website
things we were building were

all like these academic research

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: and like we were doing control,
remote control of, uh, earthquake

shake tables through the browser.

We, we thought it was all about
like sharing scientific findings

and working on experiments together.

And so like, that's why it was
actually like HTML was like, you know,

Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

LukeW: a document basically,

Brad: yep,

LukeW: cross-linking between documents.

That's what it was.

It was, you know, hyper text.

That was the

Brad: yep,

LukeW: nobody pictured, right?

Like Amazon.

So same kind of thing, right?

Like the current form, like, oh, I
don't know what it's gonna become.

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: like thing things will
evolve outside of the, like

the, let me give you an example.

One of the things that we're very focused
on right now is like collaboration.

Yeah.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: of these things are really
thinking about how people work together.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: like, here's another tool, here's
another tool, here's another tool.

And so like you've got people now with
more tools that can produce more stuff.

So there's more things
being thrown over the wall.

And frankly, like people are like,
well, I just got like a hundred prs

from random people in the organization.

What do I do?

Right?

Or this marketing guy is sending me like
20 freaking, uh, whatever blog posts.

Um, and, and like all of these tools
are very like solo sport individual,

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: ramp up your individual
productivity and you can do more and

you can step outside your lanes and

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: Nobody's really thinking about
like, Hey, beings still pretty much

dominantly work together on stuff.

Brad: yep.

LukeW: And what

Brad: It,

LukeW: like?

Brad: yeah.

And, and, and again, that's one
of those innate human things that,

that's just going to always happen.

It's like we, we are a social species.

We, we.

Coordinate and collaborate like
that, that's, it's hardwired into us.

And that's, that's I think like
why I bid sort of so dialed in,

like out of the vast landscape of
areas that I could kind of like go.

The thing that has been most exciting
to me is this, here's conversation.

Something that it, we are,
we are just hardwired to do.

Here's something like collaborating
and coordinating with one another

and working together, which is also
something that we're hardwired to do.

And now we have these, these real time.

Uh, abilities to, to make together.

And we also, like, as we've been talking
about and picking at in this conversation,

is like, we like looking at things and
like looking at something versus nothing.

Back to your little, you know,
your prototype, you know, slide.

It's, it's like, it's like here's
the prototype in that ah, yes.

Even if we're looking at a shitty logo,
that's better than just like talking

about a logo in the abstract for an hour.

And, and it gives us something to
latch onto and we could work with it.

And so I really love this idea
of being able to pull in all of

these kind of non-technical roles.

All of these people who have
ostensibly been sidelined.

By just the existing design and
development process and to take meetings,

which used to be just a goddamn nightmare.

And it's just like everybody's just
like, when is this thing gonna be done?

Or we're all kind of like
looking elsewhere because

we're trying to multitask.

What if the freaking
meeting was just the work?

Like and then you just kind of
like have at it and it has all of

that context and then you just like
build the right thing together.

LukeW: Let me show some pictures
on that 'cause this is Last set

of pictures maybe, but like, I was
literally working on these things today.

So like, this is kind
of the world right now.

Everybody's got their own
tools and like, okay, sweet.

We add cloud code to the
designer or the PM's now

they're still

Brad: Yep,

LukeW: over the wall.

Brad: yep.

LukeW: that's not collaboration.

Collaboration is when you all
work on something together.

And even

Brad: Correct.

LukeW: as like writing a blog post.

You know, designers
gotta make some assets.

Developers gotta build the tool,
PM's gotta work on the words.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: any one of these folks can
be like, I'm just gonna do it all.

But that doesn't really
work out well, right?

Nor should that be the way.

And so like what we've
been doing is creating this

concept of a shared workspace.

I'll just sort of show
you what this looks like.

The designer can basically go in here
and be like, this is the design system.

These are the layouts, this is the grid.

developer can be like,
here's how we deploy.

These are the frameworks.

You know, I want Tailwind and
Astro, and I want to render icons

as SVG for performance reasons.

And all that stuff kind of
gets baked into this workspace.

So to your point, anybody that shows
up in that workspace, when they go and

talk to the agent, those agents do the
things that have been encoded into it,

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: makes

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: Right?

So

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: goes in here and
says, Hey, here's the grid.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: can be there like,
oh, there's the grid.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: And you can take like, okay,
here's a bunch of images in Figma.

Here's a, blog post inside a word.

So maybe the PM writes the blog post in
Word, maybe the designer's working in

Figma and they drop it in and out comes a
thing that is using the right frameworks.

It's using the right layouts, it's
using the right design language.

And this is the thing I think that
allows people to like collaborate, right?

can all set sort of the context and the
structure of the space, and then anybody

can come in there and do their thing.

But what comes out on the other
side is a unified entity opposed to

like, oh, here, I made the webpage.

No, I made the webpage.

No, I made the webpage.

And you're like, what the f Right?

The

Brad: I

LukeW: with that is like, it doesn't
let designers be designers and it

doesn't let developers be developers.

Like the developer knows which
frameworks to use and why.

Brad: Sure.

LukeW: a fricking life figuring that out,
and they know all the secret get commands

and how to set it up and all that.

Cool.

Do that and then don't make me
the designer learn all that and

figure all that shit out myself.

Brad: Right.

LukeW: do the things you don't do.

Right?

Let me

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: Let me figure
out the design system.

Let

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: on the aesthetics.

But you, you mush those two
things together and you have

a collaborative environment

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: anybody can come in
and participate, but what

they do like fits right.

Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I, I love that.

And it, it, I, for many years, you
know, I've been asked a million times

like, Brad, what, how do you define,
how do you define a design system?

And I'd always piss people
off with the, with the answer.

'cause it's, I, I used to say what it's
like, well, or used to still do a design

system is the official story of how you
design and build digital interfaces.

And people are like.

Like, that's bullshit.

Like, like, you know, just, just
that's a very lackluster and like,

that feels like a cop out answer.

But what you just described is, is
exactly, you're, you're basically

saying, how do we wanna tell this story?

Like what are the standards?

What are like the, the best practices?

What are all the things
that we're encoding in this?

LukeW: Yeah,

Brad: that tell that collectively taking
everyone that we collectively tell

the story of how we're gonna do this.

Right.

And it's like, so

LukeW: you encode

Brad: yeah.

LukeW: into an environment
that is a shared environment.

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: Right, and this is
what I'm talking about.

Like I feel the collaborative
piece is sorely missing right now.

Brad: Hard.

Same.

LukeW: And, and like,

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: yet you have this capability, like,
I can bring my design sensibilities, I can

bring my developer sensibilities, I can

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: content sensibilities.

What does it look like when
we all do that together?

I think the end result is like 10 x better
oh, I'm gonna learn everybody's skills

because AI allows me to do that now.

Brad: Yeah.

I, I think that we've gotten to such
a point in the industry though, like

where it's like those, those brick
walls that you're showing there,

they've been internalized for.

I think now, like kind of two generations
of, of designers and developers.

And so that's, that's the part
that I'm like, again, why I think

I feel like I'm kind of focusing
where I'm focusing is that I, I, I

see that collaborative opportunity,
like, like you're showing there.

It's always just like, yeah, you,
you bring the people closer together.

You don't have to understand the
details of, of each other's worlds,

but you are able to just exist
and, and just do the work together.

And it kind of like falls out the
other end in the way that you want it.

And the, the great thing is that
it's, it's not this, you are able

to pull in closer and that I will,
I will die on this hill that it's

like that, that is an innate human.

desire is to, to be with other people.

But we've done such a damn good job
at creating the conditions of the

separation, uh, for the last, like,
couple of generations of, of design and

development that it's like, it is like

LukeW: It's.

It sucks.

Brad: It's like re, re
rewilding, uh, zoo animals.

LukeW: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, that's, I mean, this comes back
to what we're talking about, how people

come in with this, like mechanics, right?

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: tools.

This is the thing I make
in my tools, you know?

And

Brad: Yep.

Yep.

LukeW: it's not just designers
that are guilty of it.

Each of the

Brad: No, it's, it's everybody.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

LukeW: I

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: went and learned Figma and
I make the rectangles and Figma

with the color patches and the
different size headers, and then

your job is to go and implement that.

Uh, I'm, yeah, it that nobody likes that.

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: maybe some people like it, but
I, I don't a, I don't think that's

how you create good things, right?

That's how you create, uh, pro
that's how you, how you implement

processes, but it's not necessarily
how you create good things.

Brad: Yeah.

I think it's like the, the ins when you
pick at the incentives and like what's

like sitting underneath that is, I think
that another innately human, you know,

sort of desire is, is to feel valuable.

Is to feel worthwhile.

And I think that a lot of people of
have really done a lot to protect that

through the lens of, you know, whether
that was creating the 90 page, uh,

wire frame deck, uh, is like, look at
me, look at, look at how useful I am.

Like look at how, how long this PDF is.

I think that, that, it's like we are,
we are now free from that, which is,

which is, again, it's, it's a, it's a
liberating, it's a liberating place to be.

And I think that it's
like that initial fear.

If we're able to like, translate
that into, it's here, here's this

environment, here's this place where you
could all be together and like, yeah,

you might need a little bit of like
coaching or help to like kind of get

the hang of, of working together again.

But at the same time, it's, it's a lot
of fun and yields a lot better outcomes

than, than throwing shit over the wall.

LukeW: well, this, this is again where
I might be a contrarian, but like I

feel most of what people are doing
is creating digital detritus, right?

It's this digital flotsam and jetsam,
and like, nobody gives a crap about.

And the beautiful thing about ai,
again, this, you can argue this,

but like, it basically turns the
value of that to like zero, right?

Oh, I

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: page PDF.

Oh, here's a 90 page one, here's 120

Brad: yeah, yeah.

LukeW: Okay.

Who gives a right?

Like,

Brad: Yep.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yep.

LukeW: the value is.

Right?

I wrote a hundred articles, I
wrote 200 mine's, 500 words,

mine's, 700 words, It's all

Brad: Who cares?

Yep, it's, it's laying bare
so many things that I think ha

have been needing to be exposed

LukeW: yeah.

Brad: for a long ti for a long time
and, and, and that much I, I welcome,

but I do worry about the transition
period, especially as it translates

to, you know, people's livelihoods.

I think that, I think that that's
like that's an important piece of that

puzzle that I get worried about, but,
but at the same time, it's like I know

what we're talking about to be true.

LukeW: So let me go, we'll, we'll,
we'll uh, pull it back to one thing

we said earlier, which is right.

You need bad experiences.

need challenges, and that's
where the growth happens,

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: And like without those,
you're not gonna become the, you're

not gonna hit your potential.

You're not gonna figure out what
your path actually should be

and where you fit in and how.

Um, so I agree.

You know, it can be
uncomfortable and painful.

Totally.

But where I may differ is like, I
don't necessarily feel we should be

sheltering people from what you have
deemed as obvious and necessary.

Right.

can help them with that transition.

Absolutely.

Right.

And we can like, get them to the other
side, I don't think we want to like,

hide it from them and protect them from
it, uh, because they're gonna end up in

a worse place if that's, you know, if

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like, it's like, it's like building
that, that, um, that that resilience

and that grit and that, uh, you know,
there's a, a book by Jonathan, Heidi

talks about like anti fragility, right?

It's like you gotta like expose
people to that, to that grit.

And like, you, you do have to learn
those lessons, and it's something

that is you as a parent to bring this
back to, to, you know, your kids.

It's like they're gonna need to, to take
their own bumps and bruises in order

to sort of like learn those lessons.

You can speak about it all you want
from your own bumps and bruises,

but it's like there really are some
things that require going through it.

Your yourself experientially.

Yep.

LukeW: Like, I mean, I deal
with companies all the time

and startup founders and stuff,

Brad: Mm-hmm.

LukeW: we've built tons of companies.

I built companies.

I can tell you a gazillion things,
but you're not gonna, you're not gonna

internalize it until it happens to you.

Right.

So what what I do is instead of like
telling people, oh you should do this,

I just do it, demonstrate and I like
bring them along through the process.

Brad: Hmm.

LukeW: the other side they've experienced
it 'cause they've gone through it.

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: And at that point
right, makes sense,

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: like, oh you should do this.

Like, okay.

It's like if you're about to have a
kid and I'm like, oh, you should really

make sure that they get enough rest.

Otherwise it's, you're like, okay.

And then you're like tired kid.

Worst death.

But until it happened, until you got
that screaming kid on the airplane

at two in the morning and everybody
around you is like glaring at you.

That's when you're like, I get it.

Right.

Brad: Yeah, exactly.

that feels like a good thing to, to end
on is like e everyone's in this moment.

We all have to go through it.

Like, there, there's no, there's no
like, just, just, just, I'm gonna ask

Luke what to do, and he's just going
to, I'm gonna ask the Luke bot you

know, solve all my problems for me.

You're gonna have to, to go out there and,
and live it and, and do, do the stuff and

feel uncomfortable and, grow as a result.

So I think, I think that that's, that's
a great, a great, uh, call to arms there.

So

LukeW: Luke, Luke, Bob might make you
feel uncomfortable, so try it out.

Brad: Luke bot's an asshole.

LukeW: That's right.

He learned.

He learned from the best.

Brad: The only bit of structure aside
from the first question is the last

question, which is, what music, do you
want more people to, uh, know about?

Listen to?

LukeW: I'm the wrong
person to ask this man.

I just

Brad: no.

You're, you are the, you are
the right person to ask this.

LukeW: on for the next 30 minutes.

I spent four days in Knoxville at the,
uh, big Ears Festival two weeks ago.

something like 300 shows over
the course of four nights.

So, uh, just, I can't possibly
name all the things I saw, but I

will pull out a couple highlights.

I was in a cathedral church
where the Westerlies played

the music of Bill Frill, bill

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: American composer guitar player.

Brad: Amazing.

LukeW: daily a new song during the
pandemic, he sent this group a bunch

of these songs that they recorded.

There are two trombones and two
trumpets playing inside of a

cathedral, like gorgeous stuff.

Brian Marcella is a piano player
out in New York who's under the

umbrella of John Zorn, who's like
a big improvisational jazz guy.

He took over the Biju
Theater for two days.

In Knoxville, like
curating all the things.

And Brian played in a couple groups there.

group he had was Imaginarium,
was really amazing.

But the part that knocked my
socks off the most was Brian

Marcella with Julian Lei on guitar.

Chaz Smith on drums, and
a Jorge reader on bass.

They played live an album that
John Zorn composed called Serato.

It was unk.

album doesn't do it Justice.

The album, you know,
it's challenging 'cause

Brad: Yeah.

LukeW: out there, jazz, but like

Brad: Yep.

LukeW: but like the level these
guys played at and the way

they aligned was just bonkers.

So I'm

Brad: That's,

LukeW: there 'cause I

Brad: no, no, that's,

LukeW: going

Brad: that's amazing.

But, but thank you for that.

I think that that, that last thing
that you said though is, is really

important and is, is also I think, a
really good call to arms, which is.

Music is incredible recorded
music is incredible.

And the fact that that it exists
is, is a, a gift, uh, to all of us.

But then there's things, especially
things that are like really pushing it.

Things that are, that are really
pushing the envelope or things that

are like, and, and jazz, pre jazz
and experimental jazz and stuff.

Like, it falls into this category
where you're just, you could easily

fall prey to the, I don't get it camp,
and I've, I'm guilty as charged when

it comes to like, re-recorded music.

But it's like the, the experience of being
in a place to be present with really any

music, but like, especially the stuff
that's like, that's like pushing it is I

think a really, really, like That's really
cool to hear you describe that to just

like to, to, to feel it, to, to be there.

LukeW: wasn't the craziest stuff there.

They call it big ears for a reason,

Brad: That's amazing.

LukeW: I gave you are roughly tame.

Brad: but the experiment, right?

Like you're, you are there to
experience that live, right?

So it's like, yeah.

LukeW: 30 miles over four days
just going from venue to venue

and seeing like all this, that,
festival is extremely well curated.

Like pretty

Brad: Hmm.

Yeah.

LukeW: walk into are gonna be
expert level musicians doing

like something very unique.

might not all be your cup of tea.

Right, but like the caliber of
folks playing there outside of

like, I saw, I don't know how many
shows, I think I saw like 15 a day.

So 60 shows.

Like there'd be like one where
I'd be like, yeah, whatever.

Everything else, so

Brad: That's, that's amazing.

Amazing.

Well, that's great.

That's great.

last quick question is like,
where could people follow along

with you and your adventures?

LukeW: I'll just type Luke W in the box.

It'll work.

Brad: What, whatever box that might be?

Uh, your, your mailbox, your, uh,
the, this fuzzy Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Just j

LukeW: it in all.

I haven't tried it in all the boxes,
but many of the boxes, it'll work.

Brad: Luke w Uh, well thank you, man.

Thanks.

This is, this is great.

we'll, we'll see you soon.

We'll play some, some free
jazz together next time.

All right.

Take care, man.

Thanks.