Creative Unblock, Ethical Tensions, and Pragmatism with Luke Murphy

Luke: Oh, I mean, have you
seen the news recently?

Uh, because th- it's hard.

but, um, you know, to,
to keep it positive.

you know what?

The biggest thing for me is the,
uh, ability to do stuff these days.

That's a very broad, way of answering
it, the amount that you can just

get shit done these days and get
stuff started and, definitely what's

getting me up, and the ability, like,
to spin up ridiculous projects or

start on stupid ideas or, you know,
write a song and have stuff help you.

That's the stuff that's actually been
getting me excited in the morning.

It's also stopping me
from sleeping every night.

So it's a really vicious cycle.

Brad: One, I, I love that,
and I love that framing.

Not that-- Well, not the, not
the you not sleeping part.

You should

And we should talk

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: I love what feels like here
is this, this potential, and here is

this, this, know, you're unblocked
in many respects from actualizing

the ideas that are in your

Luke: Mm.

Brad: we have an expanded, reading
between the lines here, but it

an

Luke: Yeah.

I mean, I don't wanna make this all
about AI, but 'cause also it is one

of those things I, you know, for
my, uh, punk card and my socialist

card, I have to say that I'm an AI
skeptic, uh, which I am, uh, 'cause

it is possibly gonna destroy us all.

But at the same time, I don't know about
you, but I feel like the democratization

of anything, um, and making things
more accessible is always a good thing.

Yes, there's something-- there's some,
you know, privilege that's wrapped up

into that and, you know, only certain
people have access, but let's park

that for a second, which is, you know,
an extremely privileged thing to say.

but it's the same as, like, you
know, back in the day when, you know,

music, I know, you know, we're both
massive music fans, and a large part

of this is actually for me is music.

Like, it's-- I feel like it's
even un-unblocking music.

But, you know, think back to when
MySpace became a thing and all of a

sudden we didn't have to- You know,
schmooze A&R labels , A&R reps when

they came to shows and, you know, you
could actually get your stuff heard.

And then, you know, democratization
of like the home studio and being

able to record stuff at home and
like all the-- I think all of that

is just phenomenal generally, and I
do feel like we're at that point at

the moment where it's kind of doing
that for a lot of things now as well.

it's just incredibly uncool to say, I feel

in certain circles

Brad: and, there's a lot there
because as you said, there, there

is a lot of the hard, and that's,
that's been so much of the,

tension and the unresolved tension in, in
this moment in time, is that you're like,

here is, here is stuff that is empowering
people, is democratizing things, is

making things more accessible that, that,
that w- were, were out of reach before.

a lot of really hard and gross stuff
as well, and it's very, very difficult

to, to,

Luke: Unpick it.

Brad: to, to live, Y- Like, 'cause we, we

Luke: Yeah,

Brad: this unresolved state.

Luke: to me it is, it's
the unblock as well.

I have a real problem with a lot of,
uh, you know, as somebody who, um,

is self-diagnosed ADHD, I've never
gone and got an official diagnosis,

which I think is part of the official
diagnosis, uh, 'cause I've, I keep

getting distracted from not going
and getting the official diagnosis.

as an undiagnosed ADHD person, like
I've got so many ideas constantly

going through my head, but the blocker
is then usually like, oh, you know,

I'll get started on saying and then
go, "Uh, this is taking too long."

Um, so I'm just gonna, I'll park that.

Um, you know, the amount of unfinished
solo music projects that I've started

and left, um, you know, if anybody
does a deep dive on the internet, they

can find horrendous remix projects.

They can find-- I wrote a musical once.

It was terrible, and I got halfway
through it, but like we ended up

staging it because, you know, why not?

We'll just stage an unfinished product.

But but you know, those like unfinished-
But it is one of those things that

I've always had a real problem with
having that blocker and I don't know.

I think that that is, it's definitely
at the moment, especially on the

music side, I'm just feeling at the
moment like I don't know whether it

is a mind state thing as well as, you
know, the, the tools that are now, um,

available, but, um, I'm just actioning
all of them a lot, lot quicker and

getting further than I ever have
before, and it's a really nice feeling.

Brad: This, this is great 'cause
we get to talk about music, we

about ADHD, we get to

Luke: Yep.

Brad: to, we get to talk about the

Luke: Yep.

Brad: we get to talk about digital stuff.

This is great.

This is fantastic.

as a

Luke: Yep.

Oh.

Brad: all of that stuff, all of just
the this goes into this, and this goes

into this, and why in the hell is this
not working because I thought that this

was there, the… And so you have that
for, for each and every piece of gear

that you have, you have a signal chain
that needs to work in order to do it.

I lo- I love people that are just
like, "Here's me and my acoustic

guitar," and is, and, and I, and
I do that half the time as well.

Like, I have this, like, little,
like, bass ukulele, and that's, like,

my go-to thing 'cause it's just,
it's so visceral, it's so immediate.

There's nothing to plug in.

There's nothing to whatever.

And but just even recording it, I, I
almost never do anything with that.

It's, it's just there as the, "I gotta
play some music. Let's pick it up and go."

But there's all this stuff, the electronic
There's, there… I want to record it.

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: to put

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: all.

Luke: And the time required.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

"Ah, I'm gonna sit down and play
music," and I'm actually going to spend

the next hour and a half, uh, messing
around with, with wires and cable.

this gets to one of my, that I'm trying
to other people understand, is yes,

there, are really gross applications
of AI that are, in essence, sort of-

Trying to do the, "Ah, yes, I

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: make the music for
you so you don't have to

We want

Luke: Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah

Brad: but because this is a general
purpose technology, you could use

this stuff to just keep your fucking
instruments in tune and to make

all of the things work together.

And so what I did, I, I created like
a whole Notion page where I just went

through and I, like, barfed out every
piece of gear I have and, and, like,

screenshots of everything, and I just,
like, took pictures of it all, and I'm

like, "This goes into this, this goes into

this goes into this."

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: it,

diagram everything

Luke: Yep.

Brad: And when something doesn't
work, I now say, "This isn't working,"

and it helps me, go, "Okay, so it
looks like this is going into this.

Have you considered this?" And it
will, like, opportunistically pull

for a piece of

Luke: Yeah.

It's the shortcuts, right?

It's the shortcut.

And, and I mean, that's the thing.

Even then, like I--

'cause I've been delving, I've
been delving more into the

growth side of it as well.

Uh, but you're gonna have to hear
me out as to why I think it's fine.

it is one of those things, 'cause it's
like I, I think, you know, even before all

of this happened, all the AI, I think one
of the biggest unlocks for me was, I've

always felt like a massive imposter with
music as well, 'cause I, You know, this

is therapy time with, uh, Luke and Brad.

back in school, I wanted to be
good at music, and I was never

great, and it w- there were always
people who were better than me.

And, but you know, I picked up a guitar,
taught myself some chords, and like

started to teach myself how to sing,
and it was like just very gradual,

and I was never as good as them.

And then I remember when we were
like choosing our final subjects for

high school, I really wanted to do
music, and so I like put, put it down.

And the head music teacher came up
to me and went, "You do realize that

these last two years of school are
basically a competition when it comes

to music, so you'll be directly compared
to the other people in your class.

So what instrument are you gonna
do?" And I was like, "Guitar and

voice." And uh, he was like, "Yeah.

The problem is, is, you know, Chris
and Adrian are a lot better than you,

so I just don't think that you're
gonna do very well." Yeah, right?

That, that's-- I'm pretty sure that's
where my trauma started around music.

Brad: Yeah, Here's a, here's

Luke: one of… Yeah.

Brad: person in a,

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: a

Luke: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brad: just unpack that

Luke: Yeah, yeah.

Brad: a teacher saying that stuff.

Like, I get

Luke: Yeah.

There's a… Yeah, it was… And
I d- I do think part of it comes

down, it's the systems that are in
place, and I was a drama kid, and

the drama department and the music
department didn't like each other.

So that was possibly part of it.

Who knows?

but from that, I just knew like I always
had that level of, oh I'm not very

good in comparison to other people.

And even when I, you know, I went
through, I did loads of… I, I mean,

I ended up with a bloody music degree.

Um, and, uh, but still thought, "Oh, it's
not a real music degree 'cause it's not

from one of the good music schools." and,
uh, and, you know, did music theater.

I ran my own cabaret company for a while.

I was in bands back in Australia, and then
when I got out here and started in bands.

But even then, whenever I'd write music,
I'd always be like, "Oh, it's derivative."

Uh, because the way that I write music
is I listen to other people's songs.

I like, I like what they're doing.

I figure out how to play it, and then
I go, "Oh, I wanna write something

similar to that." And, uh, the
biggest unlock for me was after…

You know, it didn't stop me, but,
like, being in a band, starting to

write music, and even then I think, you
know, the guitarist in my band would

always be like, "Yeah, but, you know,
I can tell that you've written that

having listened a lot to these bands
recently." and I read a book, Frank

Turner's Try This at Home, which is
like he's a folk punk singer, a very

big folk punk singer in the, in the UK.

and he basically, all, all the book
was was him going through individual

songs and, where they came from, how
he wrote them, all the rest of it.

Every single song is, uh, this song
is basically Bruce Springsteen's

Dancing in the Dark, and I changed
this chord and this chord to

make it so it was more like me.

And then when I took it into the rehearsal
room, it morphed and, and changed.

And I remember reading that going, " Oh.

Oh, it's not just me then." Like, oh,
successful people do this as well.

that to me was like the first
unlock in like I can do this stuff.

And it's also why, I don't know, there's a
little bit of me why I'm like less, timid

about testing out some of the slightly
grosser AI products is I'm like, yeah,

I mean, they are heavily borrowing from,
uh, established artists and patterns

in, in songs that, that are happening.

It's what every musician does,
they just do it manually.

So, so there's like a little bit of that.

There's still… I mean, it's
not as simple as that, and it

is a lot more gray than that.

Well, not gray.

It's closer to black than that.

But, so what I've been doing
recently is, um, I have been

using… Have you played with Suno?

I've been using Suno to just
basically, kickstart ideas

and get like- demo concepts.

And so like one of the things recently,
and my band hate this because they're

very, they're all extremely anti-I- AI.

I figured out a nice chord progression
on the guitar, on the acoustic.

I played that into it.

I said, "Here's the
vibe that I wanna go to.

Here are the lyrics that I've written.

just give me an outline of a song."
it, it came back with something and

I'm like, "Cool, good start." it's the
exact same chord strumming pattern I

was doing, same chords that I was doing.

It was the same because I'd hummed
the melody line over the top.

It was the same melody line.

It made some slight changes.

Some of them I was like, "That's
a good idea." Some of them I was

like, "That's terrible." and then
split it out into stems, pulled them

into Logic, messed about with them.

All of a sudden I had a demo that I
could show the band that then we can

take it to the rehearsal room, mess
about with and make completely our own.

And I was like, "This process would've
taken me three months before, and I did it

in an afternoon, and this is phenomenal."
it's been an absolute game changer for me.

Brad: you're describing these
things as, as, as materials,

as

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: of the creative

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: rather than a
wholesale replacement, right?

There's, there, there is

important

Luke: Yes.

Brad: between somebody-- you, you
plunking in those, those chords,

you then that through Suno,

and

Luke: Yes.

Brad: as like, "Here

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: that I made." And it kind of
technically is, and there's actually

like a lot of stuff just even in
that, that is, is worth unpacking,

but we don't need to because what,
uh, of what you said comes after.

Good start in here, back at it, touching,
crafting, sculpting, and then you're

taking it a step further, which is to
say you're then taking that to human

beings, human beings, that have have
lived their own rich lives and have their

own musical, uh, ideas and textures and
bring things together, and it's that

alchemy of the human beings that like
who, who-- wherever a song originated

from, if it fell out of the sky, if one
of the persons, like people in the group,

uh, was the one that came up with the
lick and then that got the ball rolling,

or if somebody charted out all of the
pieces, like exactly, even if somebody was

like micromanaging the shit out of that

this," the

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: it's just dialed in.

But, but, but

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: right?

So, so you're, you're, you're
describing the, here's something that

is kickstarting, that is facilitating
getting over the finish line, which

with ADHD is difficult to get there
on your own, but at no point are you

just like lazily like kind of using
something, releasing it, and just saying

Luke: That's it.

And I mean, that's the other thing too.

I, I don't know, the way that I
always see this, let's, you know,

let's get into politics now.

the way that I always see it anyway
is that the people who do do that

lazily, there will be edge cases
that are, uh, you know, basically

gamed the system and rort it, and
they make loads of money off of that.

And, you know, we, we saw, we saw that
from the first few people who did that

and there was media about
it and all the rest of it.

In reality though, the people who
aren't putting the soul into it and

aren't putting the time into it and
aren't aren't making it their own and

are just doing the lazy put it in,
release it, um, it's gonna be crap.

And I-- it's, it's my one like libertarian
bone in my body that goes, you know what?

Let the market decide.

Like, it's the same when people go,
"Oh, you know, AI is killing our

writing skills." And I'm like, "No,
it's, it's producing a load of gray,

middle of the road, beige content
that will be filtered out because

the market won't put up with it."

Same with the image creation stuff,
same with the video creation stuff.

Like, you know, the, the only way
that you can kind of make a lot of

this stuff work and have it be a high
enough quality output is if you've

probably put enough time in it in the
first place that you could justify

it being a creative creation anyway.

and you know, that is where I'm like,
that's where I'm interested in like

what, you know, all the stuff that, uh,
Gem Gold's doing, um, because, you know,

Gem's pushing that technology to its
absolute limits and really messing with

it and like trying to see what's possible
and experimenting and playing with it.

She's not who we need to worry about.

Brad: Yep.

Yeah.

yeah.

yeah.

I think, I think you put a…
It's like, it's like, yes,

here's the grift, here's the

Luke: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brad: here's the how can
I make a buck off of this?

Here's… Like, and, and there's, there's
plenty of that stuff going around,

but I think that, that, You're doing
a great job, I think, at, at splitting

this apart and, and helping describe
the nuance involved in wielding things

as creative materials but then you're
exactly right in saying that it is

about time and craft and intention and,
you get to the other end, if you get

to the other end, if you're like both
you and me, it's like we've got a lot,

of unfinished, uh, stuff that's just

out in various for- i, i-

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: of undone.

process itself can be massively
satisfying, but then that feeling of,

of creating something and putting it out
there, uh, is also massively satisfying.

So,

Luke: think it is also, it's like,

different strokes for
different folks as well.

Like, I think that, I think part of
it for me, I've been really trying to

dive into this internally with myself
recently of, the understanding what

parts of the process I like as well.

and I think that it's, it's one of
the good thing is-- So I'm not a…

I, I don't like the messy middle.

I'm actually not that much
of a fan of the messy middle.

I am very much a, at the beginning,
I have all of the enthusiasm and all

of the ti- And I will talk for days
about, you know, ideas and how we

could maybe approach this and like, oh.

I'm very much that, like
kicking it off, love it.

Shipping it, love it.

And the, you know, the impact that it
has and like, uh, like I mean, for me,

especially when it comes to music, like
performing it and like getting it out

there and th- that's the stuff I love.

It's, it's one of the things that
like I really struggle, struggle

with, with the band is, is I love
releasing records, hate recording them.

that process of recording
is boring as batshit.

It is so boring.

luckily, two of the other members of the
band, they love it so much, so it's fine.

That's what they prefer to do.

You know, one of them gets
anxiety every time we go on stage.

Uh, that's, that's fine.

and, and I think that that's one
of the things as well is like-

I think it's absolutely fine to
have those proclivities as well.

Like, there are people who
love the craft and, you know,

Brad: Yes.

Luke: as a designer, I probably
shouldn't be saying that

love the craft that much.

if I'm being extremely honest in job
interviews and they ask me, like,

what my weakness is, I would say my
attention to detail is not great because

But the output's gonna be amazing.

But, you know, and that's fine.

Like, I've kind of come
to accept that of myself.

So anything I can do to, like, shortcut
those boring bits, I think that's great.

And so it's funny, like when you were
talking about the tool chain stuff,

it was like I realized one of the
things, I actually, I, I don't mind

recording my own stuff occasionally.

Like, I, I don't mind getting
into Logic and playing around.

I did audio production as
part of my degree, so it's

like I understand that stuff.

Getting the right settings, like
the right plugins and the right

settings in the plugins to get good
vocal, um, recordings, oh my God.

Like, it's awful.

And so yeah, one of the f-
one of my first uses of like

using an LLM to help me with that was just
like, "Here's what my voice sounds like.

Understand what it's like.

Here's an example of a song that
I like the vocal production on.

How do I get from there to there?" And
it just gave me a shortcut, and yeah,

I could've spent more time tweaking,
and I will, and I kind of learnt some

stuff along the way, so that's good.

But like,

Brad: you're

pulling this stuff in

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: You're saying, "I, you know,
I have a vision of where I want

to get. This is the, the, the raw
track. I want it to sound a certain

way." And I think that there's,
there's something really interesting.

I've actually been, uh, talking a
bit with, uh, a music, of software.

They make plug-ins and

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: that.

and this ha- this has to,
fingers crossed, be more, a

Luke: Yeah

Brad: you say, "I want this to sound like
I'm underwater or in a big-ass hallway,

and, and I want this to sound, you know,
a lot richer than it currently is," like,

words have, connotation that could then be
translated into specific knobs and stuff.

And that's… And, and, and, okay.

It's like, here's this juice
it up a little bit, bit.

Like, I've always been bad.

Uh, I love how you're talking about, um,
your musical tendencies and your ten-

and the tendencies of your bandmates
too, 'cause I think that that's sort of

something that, that people, uh, don't
understand enough about themselves.

So I really like t- and, and appreciate

saying that because it's… People

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: I'm a musician," and
musician comes with it this

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: you all bring with, bring to
the, the, own gifts and your own

anxieties and your own, I do this.

And, and it's getting the Venn

Luke: It's, yeah, that's, yeah.

Okay, we've figured it out.

Uh, I think we've actually
solved it all, so that's good.

Brad: We have an idea of what a musician
is, and it's a very- Uh, or, or in

the collective imagination of people.

A musician is somebody who does this, and
that's kind of usually as far as it goes.

Meanwhile, within that, you're
like, "Well, I, I am in, in certain

respects like a, a front person,

Luke: I don't think you could
ever not be a front person, Brad.

Like, it's, it's-- I, I think a- any, any
situation you're in, you're like not only

the talent, but also the personality hire.

It's Yeah.

Brad: but But, but, but, but,
but, there's something to it,

though, like, as, like, a musician.

It's

like, yeah, there's even that.

It's

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: front person.

Front

you know, when we think of, of

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: it's, it's the spotlight's
on me, and it's like, "Nah, I'm,

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: bit." And so, so it's,
it's, it's very, very interesting.

It's very interesting because,
like, we, we tend to flatten things.

good, AI bad.

Musician Like, it,

there's,

much nuance in here, and,

Luke: I think there's nuance, but
I think that's the thing is that,

in all of these
conversations there's nuance.

In all of these situations there's nuance.

cause it is.

It's like you know, if we, we stay
on the music, it's like if you

distill any of, any role in a band
or any role as a musician down,

it's like even then, uh, I mean, now
we're gonna get into queer theory.

Um, but it is, you know, that concept of
it, it is almost binary thinking of like,

well, this is, this is what a drummer
is, and this is what a drummer isn't.

And it's like, you know, the best drummers
are-- Uh, there's a band that, um, I fell

in love with years ago, uh, called The
Spook School who are, uh, they're, they're

now sadly, uh, RIP, because they, they
went to the moon, um, and never came back.

they were one of-- I remember s- the first
time I saw them I just thought it was

just such an interesting dynamic because
they had three people at the front.

They had, uh, two guitarists and a bassist
who just clearly did not like talking.

They didn't like talking to people.

They loved singing, and they
loved, like, writing the songs, and

they loved standing at the front.

But their drummer… And it's
weird, they all met as comedians as

well, which kind of doesn't track.

I didn't understand it.

But the drummer was the glue
of the band in so many ways.

Obviously, you know, doing the,
the role that a drummer should do

of keeping the, the, you know, the
bed there and keeping things going

along and providing that space for
these three amazing people to shine.

But then was also, I would say,
kind of the, the front person

of the, um, interaction between
the audience and the band.

So, you know, would handle all of
the between-song banter, would be the

person that if you were, you know,
putting on them on as a- they'd be

the person that you interface with.

And like … It was such an unheard
of thing in every other band I knew.

The drummer was always the, the
usually the guy at the back who

kinda didn't wanna talk to anyone.

And I was like, "This is-- this makes
this band special," and also made

me go, "Oh, yeah, actually, no, not
all drummers are like that." Like,

Brad: Yep.

Luke: totally fine.

Um,

and yeah, it is-- And I-- But I
do feel like that's the case with,

you know, absolutely everything.

And it is-- I mean, it is-- it's
the case with everything, and it is

the whole queer theory aspect of it,
of it is you don't fit in one box.

You fit in multiple boxes, right?

Everybody is a multifaceted personality
and has lots of different facets that make

up their identity, and therefore, why do
we try and put people into labeled boxes?

and yeah, I do feel like
it's the same with AI.

I do feel like there's not much nuance
at the moment with talk about AI.

There are problems with AI.

Um, many, many problems.

And

So again, going back to the music
side of things, the scene that

I'm in, it's very like AI, uh, AI.

It's very DIY punk, uh, indie.

You know, it's the, the socialist
leftist, uh, punks, uh, queer

punks, which I love, and I love.

I, I have alignment on
almost everything with them.

however, does it feel like some
people are just sticking their heads

in the sand and hoping it goes away?

Brad: but, but, but here's the

I think that, that… Let's u-

Luke: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brad: though, because I think that y- on
one hand, you're like, on, everybody."

Like, you, you kind of understand.

let me, let me… you on the spot
and guess, what it is that they feel

uncomfortable about that is preventing
them from getting to a, a place where

they are, like, kind of going, "Oh, okay,
yeah, it's like, it's useful for some

things, but not m- but not for others."

So it's like, ''cause, I have a
feeling that you could understand

and appreciate, especially as
you're describing… You're, you're

of, of punk

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: and and, and, and all
of that stuff, and socialist.

like, there's a

to this

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: that runs pretty counter

Luke: Yeah.

It's, yeah, it's the, it's the, uh,
ethical and environmental concerns

which are strong, and we, we know that.

That it's, it's extremely real and

I mean, we just need to figure them out.

Like that is-- It-- They, they
need to be figured out because

I was having an argument with
somebody about this at the weekend.

You know, these people who just go,
"Oh, it's gonna burst and go away.

A bubble's gonna burst and go away." And
I'm like, "It's, it's just not though."

Like, I just, I can't see a world where
that is gonna happen at the moment.

I do feel like a bubble may burst
and it will contract, but, in

the same way that, you know, I
mean, the dot-com bubble burst.

Do we still have the internet?

Um, yes.

Has it completely changed the way that
we, operate as society and, you know,

for the better and for the worse?

Yes.

Um, I do feel like the exact same
thing's gonna happen with, with AI.

So I do think, like the environmental
stuff we need to figure out.

Like that is, that's, that's 100%.

and so yeah, people should
keep talking about that.

the ethical concerns, especially when
it comes to, you know, the biases that

are in there, the, uh, intellectual
property, uh, all of that stuff, yes, and

in that it kind of goes back
to what I was saying before.

I was like, this is a, you know, this
is how, this is how societies have

worked forever, in that everybody
steals other people's shit, and

that is, that is the reality of it.

Um, yes, there needs to
be protections in there.

Are they the level of protect- 'cause I
think that's the thing, if you dive into

a lot of the intellectual property rights,
they're usually, uh, the intellectual

property concerns, they are also tied
into extremely outdated models of how

intellectual property works that actually
supports the systems that are there

anyway, uh, especially when we talk about
things like music, books, entertain-

entertainment generally, art as well.

although art I think is, yeah,
that's, that's a tougher one, so

I'm just gonna leave that over,
I'm gonna leave that over there.

Uh, but you know, I do think that
there are like the, the, the things

that have been suggested to get around
those problems aren't solutions.

They're not tenable.

you know, we can't just pay everybody
for, for their art, um, because actually

what's gonna happen is it's only the top
.5%, .1% that are actually gonna get paid.

so yeah, but I do think, yeah,
that stuff also needs to be worked

on as well, but not as much.

And then there is also the, uh, the fact
that it's run by a bunch of people who

seem to want to, um, uh, end the world.

Um, so there is also the
enshittification part of it, right?

and so I do also understand that.

So that's, you know, when people go, "Oh,
people who…" You know, it's like anybody

who uses AI is a loser, and I'm like,
yeah, I kind of understand that as well.

But

I still bring up the heads in the sands
concept, where it's like we shouldn't

stop shouting about these things, but
we also shouldn't potentially find areas

where it could also be useful and help,
like genuinely help people as well.

Um, and so-- But it is,
it's incredibly nuanced.

And so I don't have the answers.

Brad: that's, that's I think
the thing is, like, you're able

be enthusiastic about the

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: of this that are, are, are
genuinely helping you in your life,

your creative life, in your, in your

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: and all of that.

And, and, and there, there are a lot
of, benefits that can unlock, right?

think that th- there is a, a big
difference in between, uh, something like

this where, you know, and we're setting
aside I, I al- I always invoke the…

And then there's the curing cancer part,
which is, uh, here are, here are these

things that, you know, when we look and
when we look at things, and then there's,

there's, there's limitations to our, uh,
technologies and our human eyeballs that

to detect certain things at certain levels
of granularity, very difficult to do.

And so having technologies that are
a- able to come in and just, like,

rip through stuff and detect patterns
and then ultimately go, "Oh. okay.

this leads to this," all these things
together and be able to get closer to,

oh, these things are, are causal and…

so, so there's that,

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: So, so, like,
that's… And but that's th-

not

the, the

Luke: I think that's--

Brad: that, you are, that
you just articulated.

So, so it's, it's, it's again, it's,
it is this very difficult place to

be as human beings who, who crave
and crave one answer specifically.

That we're like, it's, it is this
or it's that, and, and that it, it

allows us to reach this state of,
of equilibrium that allows us to,

to, know, be, be comfortable, right?

And so, so it's a really hard to
cultivate, but I think it's incredibly

necessary too, is to that, that
being living in this uncomfortable,

unresolved where lot of things can

Luke: Yeah.

The way that I keep, I just need
this, uh, printed on my forehead or

I don't know, probably a T-shirt.

uh, I do feel like we can just extend
the there is no ethical consumption under

capitalism to just there is, there is
no ethical living under under capital-

Like, it's, you know, and it's like it's,
it's massively, um, that maybe boils

it down too much, but it is that thing.

It's like, no matter what, in the
world that we live in, the way that

the systems are currently set up, and
a lot of it does come back to systems.

Um, the way that the systems are set up,
um, you're gonna be a hypocrite somewhere

in what you're doing, and it is your
choice as to where you're a hypocrite.

Um, and I respect other people's choice.

So, you know, I, I do respect.

There are-- I mean, there are folks,
um, you know, just to, to call somebody

out 'cause I know they can handle it.

but like, you know, Andy Bell, perfect
example of, you know, somebody who is just

the most anti-AI person I've ever met and
is like, "AI will never touch my code."

and all the re- I respect Andy for that.

I respect that Andy can do that.

I respect that,

Andy has the talent and, uh, has
the fortitude and, everything

else to be able to, to do that.

But that is-- I, I also think that
that's a choice that Andy's made, and it

shouldn't be seen as the right choice I
feel like the-- I mean, this is again,

just the state of the world at the moment,
you know, everything breeds division.

But it just does feel like people are
just consis- like constantly, um, and

consistently picking sides on everything.

And I'm like: "No, I just wanna
stand in the middle on some

things, if that's okay." Um…

Brad: I think y- I think you're
picking at, at something that's, that's

important 'cause yeah, I, I, I know and
love Andy as well, and I, and I really

value hearing those perspectives, and
I really value, you know, I… The

comes to mind for me is, is Jeremy

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: It's like Jeremy is, Jeremy
is, is another complete hero of

mine, and I won- I, I will talk to
him here, uh, eventually as well.

this is what's healthy about taking
those stands and putting those things

out there done in the right way.

'Cause, uh, Andy's a great person,
and he's able to say that, and I'm

able to understand it as, as that
personal choice, which I think

you said really well right there.

And then that helps hold up a mirror

thoughts and, and perspectives on things.

And, and that, that is the beauty of
pluralistic, diverse society, that

we're able to sort of hold things
up and say, "Here's my opinion,"

not cross the line into, that yours

Luke: Yes.

Brad: extend this to

Luke: Yes.

Brad: religion, to, to any, any third
rail issue that exists on the planet.

to s- to share and articulate,
"Here's why I hold these values.

Here's why this is important.

Here's the stuff that is wrong,

making the decision to not go

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: because of those things."
And then you're able to sort of

say, Let me think about that."

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: Let me think cri- let
me think critically that.

Let me, let me, again, let me sit in
the discomfort because, because my

experience is a little different maybe.

But so now I have one more perspective
that I could take in figure out

where, where I live with this.

And, you do that enough, when you,
when you cultivate that, when you go

through that process so many times,
through the old RSS feed, going

through all of that stuff, getting to
read all of these beautiful people's

beautiful just perspectives, and you
take it all in, and some of these

with one another, what do you do?

What do you do with that?

Oh my God.

we do, we do the, work, to go, okay,
here's a bunch of people that I really

love and respect are saying conflicting
things." And I get to say, "All right,

there's the validity there, and I
understand that, but maybe coming to that

particular conclusion, doesn't make me
the devil's advocate version of this.

Give me the, the whatever version of this.

Give me this historical
character might say.

Give me what this, uh, you know,
future civilization, uh, might say

about this." Like, y- that's the thing
that's crazy about this is that you

can actually, like, get all of these
different things and use this to

critical thinking

Luke: It's another tool.

And it kinda goes-- But it goes
back to what we were saying.

It's around… I mean,

I mean, everything comes back to systems.

What I was saying before around,
like, I wanna offload the things

that I just don't have time to
do or don't care that much about.

And, you know, the reality is, is that,
you know, when somebody is saying,

"Output me this 20 tur- uh, 20-page term
paper," it's probably because they don't

want to write that 20-page term paper.

Like, it's, but that-that's
a slippery slope, right?

It, it, it will cause the actual thing,
'cause there are things in life that

everything can be sunshine and
rainbows, and you, you sort of

can't enjoy everything you do.

But- Uh, I mean, it's why I'm
also, to get into really deep

territory, why I'm kind of…

I am worried for the future around this
topic and this area because I don't think

that the education system is ready to,

handle the fact that it's, like,
actually teaching young people how

important critical thinking is.

Because it is usually one of those
things that some people realize that

it's important in their mid-20s.

Um, and, and unfortunately
not enough people.

But, you know, at the same time, a large
part of that is because of the crap

that we've had to do throughout our
life to get us to a point where we go,

"Oh, actually, that stuff that I hated
doing is, is quite helpful." It is.

It is.

It's just a lot of it is it requires
a lot of systemic a- addressing the

systems to fix the issues that we're
seeing and sort of not just focusing on

the … It's the symptoms of the problem
as opposed to the actual problem itself.

cause yeah, I mean, I, I do that as well.

I sit there and, you know, especially
for things where, like topics

or ideas where I don't, I don't

I wouldn't make the
time to dive into them.

Three years ago, I might have been, you
know, walking down the road and had read

a news article this morning and went,
"Oh, I wonder if there's any correlation

between this and this." And, then I go,
"I should research that at some point."

And that is as far as that will ever go.

And then, like this morning we … So
we've, we've just been going through

some, uh, elections that are, are pretty
catastrophic in the UK, where basically

everybody's revoted their council
elections, uh, revoted for their council

members, and that is kind of… 'Cause
it's halfway through the term, it's gonna

be a bit of a, flag for what might happen
in a couple years in the general election.

and let's just say that those
elections that happened yesterday

did not go well, um, in my mind.

but it was one of those ones where I
was like, "Well, I'm reading this,"

and of course, you know, now I'm gonna
sound like a conspiracy theorist.

When you read the media, you're
reading one person's perspective on

these things, and it's quite often
n- they're, they're trying to guide

you to think in a particular way.

Definitely.

and I was curious.

I was like, "Actually, how much impact
the, do the council elections have on

the general elections that, especially
if it happens midterm?" You know, do

we have historical precedent for this?

Like, what is gonna happen?

And so I just- Fed that into Claude,
and it was just as I was setting up

in the morning, and I just fed it into
Claude and sort of let it run and asked

it a couple questions when I was, like,
between tasks, and got a much better

picture than I ever would've got that
kind of gave me a lot of the facts.

I probably need to go and
check some of those facts to

make sure that they're right.

But but it is one of those ones where I'm
like, "Oh, okay." It quieted some of my

anxieties, and also I felt taught me some
things around, uh, around the UK politi-

political system that I didn't quite know
about in historical elections and whatnot.

And it was just one of those ones
where I'm like, "Jesus, this has made

me do better critical thinking than

Brad: Yeah.

Luke: it wasn't there."

and yeah, I am… I'm,
I'm kinda loving that.

But again, you know,

Brad: But I, I think that, I think
that you're, you're getting at

something that is important, which
is to say some of this stuff,

a lot of bigger systemic things, complex
systems, complex ideas, things that

are outside of our, uh, immediate lived
experience can feel really daunting

and can feel really overwhelming
and distant and, and all of that.

That to kind of go near it, let alone even
solve any- anything feels like, just like,

"No way that's gonna happen," so I guess
I'll just be, I'll be over here and just

kind of, eating some cereal, I, I suppose.

and, kind of the core, the core nugget
of this stuff that runs counter to what

we were saying earlier, which is just,
like, they, the people responsible for

unleashing a lot of this technology on

are…

Their

systems are, are not

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: They're

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: But the technology itself,
if we decouple that, we… Again,

one of these things that we, we
hold these things both to be true.

People are lousy.

technology Can also but it
could also be really good.

So exercise, the mission as it were, is
how do we use technology and point it at

good things using the right value system?

Use… How do we point this at
solving a lot of the core issues,

including pointing it back at itself?

Which is how

uh, solve these environmental issues,
and how can, can this technology,

uh, be used to facilitate that?

But more broadly, how can things, as I
was just sort treating of this as mortar,

that, that I'm, I'm able to sort of take
my perspective and my lived experience,

and you have your lived experience,
we're able to better understand one might

Luke: Crazy concept.

Brad: a more just and equitable world?

And, and that is the mission, and
that is the stuff that, that doesn't

get a lot of sunlight because

this false binary thinking.

it

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: is the, not, I'm not going to
entertain that this actually might

be useful for solving some of these,
these hard issues, and I'm not going

to entertain the ideas that, this
stuff might be used and pointed at,

uh, things that can be done to promote
human flourishing rather than just the

end of the world, there's the concept
of, like, stages of, grief, right?

and this, this concept, um,
that was created not as a

universal grief, uh, blanket.

It was created through the specific
lens to help kind of terminally ill,

uh, people kind of process this, and
that's, that's where this originated from.

So put a big asterisk by
it all, up, it, it ended up

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: context and ends up being used.

And my wife, who, who worked, uh,
uh, in a hospice setting as a, as

a therapist is like, "It's, like,
really, really dangerous because so

many people get fixated on 'I'm in this

grief.'" And they, they kind of identify
that way and get, kind of get stuck there.

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: the… specifics- don't
often understand grief not just

death, we grieve a feeling.

We grieve a, a place.

Uh, we grieve, we grieve all sorts of, of
non just, "Yes, this person died, and now

I'm sad, and now I'm going, y- I'm going
through this grief process." When we, as

a society, have been just bombarded all

right?

Take COVID, take all of

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: There's these loss of s- losses
of normalcy, losses of stability.

There's all sorts of very
real stuff to grieve.

And then here comes this new technology
that for, especially for us doing

the work that we're doing, and, and
being, oh, here's, here's a viable,

um, you know, ooh, what feels like a
stable, uh, uh, industry, something

that's been, you know, respected, sort
of, you know, people are well-paid,

and you can earn a living and have a
family and all that good stuff, right?

And here comes this, like,
super big disruptive thing.

So, so, so that's the wind-up, where
viewed through the lens of these stages of

grief, we can look at, at the development
of AI and how it's being processed.

And

people that you're

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: the head in the

Luke: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brad: is, this is the

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: stage, which is just like, "Ah,
this is… at, ha ha ha, here's the

seven and like, "This is so shit," and,
and theref- therefore I'm going to, to,

you know, just push it away and pretend
that, you know, this, this isn't a thing.

Then into the anger phase, which
rightly pointing at the shitty people

who are, you know, out there trying to
just step on the accelerator despite

the very real risks and, and uh, you
know, all of the environmental concerns

and stuff, and there's a lot to be
angry about, ab- about all of that.

And then you get into the stage, which
is, "Ah, you know, all right. Well,

maybe I'll, I'll use it for, like, this
thing, but, but, but not for, for this

other thing. Um, you know, I'm never
gonna let it touch my, my actual code

or whatever," and stuff like that.

then there's depression, which is like,
"Well, what the hell have I even been…

You know, so all of my career is
just for naught because now just

crap out a user interface in two
seconds," and like, "Well, that

was a waste of time, that sucks.

That's a bummer." eventually
a point of, of acceptance.

And acceptance is very, very difficult
thing to unpack and process because

acceptance does not mean you're not angry
acceptance is not the same as, as this.

It's, it's actually kind of far from it.

It's a very sort of like clear-eyed
thing because when we lose someone in

our lives, it's really, really hard.

And the acceptance part is a recognition
that that, that thing is, is lost.

The loss is always there, which
is why this isn't just a linear

process, which is why it's like you
weave in and out every single day.

Like, the aspects of each one of these
stages can hit you depending on the day.

But as time goes on, you learn, you
say, "Yep, like that, that person

is, I- is gone or that idea is gone,
or this time or this moment or this

feeling is gone, but I now accept that."
But part to it which is a commitment.

So there's the acceptance, and
then there's the commitment part.

And what I've been unpacking is
that I went through that process

a little bit than what a lot of

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: are, are going through now.

And, and, and it just happened to
be that I was in a place where I

was sort of subjected to this at
like, as this was kind of emerging.

so that… back on those times,
I, it, I went through all of that.

And so I'm now in this place where at

it might look like I'm some just like,

Luke: Yep.

Brad: know, kinda techno optimist,
like, "Oh, yeah, like, all of this

is fine. Like, I'm all in on this."
It's like, nope, nope, same as you.

You know, there's, there's the very
real stuff, but it's, it's, it's,

it's a commitment now where I'm like,
"Is this gonna just all go away?"

No.

It, it is not going to go away,
but I am now committed deploying

this in of, creating a better

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: and creating a, a world where
people, can have their needs met,

to, to be able to do more creative
things, to unlock their, their

potential, to, to create a more
just and, and equitable society.

it's not naive, that's really fucking hard

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: guess what?

Like, that's, that, that is the work.

That, that is the work ahead of us.

So when we say like, "Oh, so what? So
we're all just going to like, kinda

like roll over like that?" No, no, no.

It's we need- collectively
to design these conditions.

we need to, to do a lot of active
work to point them at all of these

are woefully neglected, all of these
institutions and systems and just

stuff that have not been serving us.

And we have to

better systems across the

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: And that requires all of
the firepower we have, including

Luke: Yes.

Yes.

I, I mean, I think that that was,
that was said so brilliantly.

cause I think that's-- But
I do think that that's it.

It's, it is, and I think that it
is that key understanding of the…

'Cause I think that's where a lot of
people fall down as well, is because

they do feel like everything is being
rammed down their throats, and that

they are just being asked to blanket
accept without any, um, anything else.

It's just like, accept it, it's
happening, move on, get over it.

Uh, which is not it.

It's accept- y- you know, accepting
the situation and deciding how you're

responding to it in a way that is
aligning with your values and your,

you know, y- your outlook and, you
know, your ultimate goals as well.

'Cause, I mean, that, that is a thing.

Even, you know, I, I feel like with
that, it's like acceptance can also be,

uh, still going, "No, I'm still gonna
burn the world down, but I'm gonna do it

clear-eyed." Like it's… That's fine.

we, we still wheel out
the gu- guillotines.

I think, I think you're 100% right
though, 'cause Cause I was very

much in the, uh, a similar boat.

I think I was probably
just slightly behind you.

But, you know, I was in companies in,
in 2018, 2019, who were, you know, doing

a lot, potentially earlier, doing a
lot with like the first iterations of

GPT and being like, "Wow, this stuff
is terrifying." it's bad at the moment,

but I can see the potential for it.

and yeah, it's-- I've never really thought
about it in that context of, oh, maybe

I just went through those, those phases
when it wasn't in a mass hysteria moment.

Brad: right, so everyone has
their own personal experience.

Everyone, first contact
with w- with stuff.

Like, COVID was very strange

hit the world

Luke: Yeah.

Yeah,

Brad: Like, it, that literally traveled
around the world and, like, everyone went

through trauma at the exact same time.

obviously not the exact same way,
but the, the, the The physics of

of that phenomenon was it, it hit
the world kind of like evenly, even

obviously each person's

Luke: yeah.

Brad: their own

Luke: We had a big shared
traumatic experience, yes.

Brad: That we still to have not
collectively unpacked or acknowledged

in any meaningful way because
everything still sucks, and the

people that are, uh, supposed to be
the leaders of the world are too busy

utter and complete shitheads.

So,

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: so, how might we,
fill those voids, right?

So, so this is, this is the thing
is like the commitment part to it

and, and the, the kind of getting
through, uh, to that place is something

that I'm, I'm very interested in.

But, but viewed through this lens,
I'm, I'm able to kind of view

perspectives on how they feel about
this stuff kind of like viewed in

a way of it's like, ah, yes, okay.

Here's, here's this.

It's all still unfolding, and that's
why it's worth having these kinds of

like conversations 'cause it's not,
now I understand, I'm, I, I immediately

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: this acceptance and commitment
part." It's, it's more like a, this

is a pro- like grief is a process.

does not happen linearly.

Grief

does not ever fully go

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: and, that's that.

And that's part of the hard around
grief and is so poorly unders-

like misunderstood and, and you
know, I've learned so much from my

wife, and my neighbor also does,
uh, grief work and stuff as well.

So I'm like, I'm kinda…

fascinating to see people who are like

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: close to the metal on this,
and then to be able to sort of like

bring, like apply it to this, this

Luke: Doesn't feel like it
should be applied to, but it,

it actually definitely should.

Brad: for anybody like listening I
think is, is just kind of like check

in with you, and like, you know, viewed
through that lens, even if you like you

could, you disregard it, that's fine

But if you entertain it for a

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: just be like, "Oh, like
where am I at with this?"

Like am, am I like just, am I in denial?

Am I in the anger, uh, stage of this?

Am I in the depressed stage of this?

Am I, To be able to hold those thoughts
in our heads at the same time, to, to

be simultaneously excited but also be
terrified at the same time is like,

is a really difficult thing to, to

and, and articulate,

that you've done a really good job

Luke: mean

Brad: like being able to, to, to say it.

Like, 'cause it, it just sounds like, like

the, the circles you're running in

Luke: Well,

Brad: are…

Luke: it is, and I mean, you know, a large
part of it is I just, you know, end up

keeping my mouth shut a lot of the time.

But, but which is not the answer either.

Like, I think that's the thing is
that it is-- I think that-- 'cause

I do, I do actually believe that,

I b- you know, there is so much activism
that needs to happen, and there is so

much, there is so much shouting and
so much protest that needs to happen.

I do also think that, you know,
you were talking before about,

uh, not being a techno-optimist.

It's like, actually, I just wanna put
techno-pragmatist on, like, my… Like,

I do feel like that there is something
to be said for pragmatism to a degree.

Like, pragmatism as an excuse to, to
not care about things, uh, is bad.

But I do think that understanding, you
know, how systems work and understanding

that things aren't gonna change today
or tomorrow no matter what you do, um,

and it's like how do you work within the
systems that you have to make incremental

change, and when the opportunity comes
to big change, then make big change.

And I think that that is,
like, really important.

Um, and yeah, it is a, um, it's a
tough one 'cause I do feel like that

it is just more people thinking about
it and more people talking about it

and more people, um, actually, you
know, having the conversation and not

shutting down the conversations either.

Like, I think that that is, it's, you
know, it happens a lot on both sides.

and just being always being
slightly skeptical of anybody who

is too hardline on either side.

Um, and being introspective,
like you said, like understanding

where you are with this and what
your thoughts actually are and,

Brad: Yep.

Luke: how you can get to a point
where you're making a commitment.

Brad: that's really well said, and,
and, and again, it's like by all

like have

those

Luke: yeah.

Brad: convictions and those strong
things and be able to articulate them.

And, and that's where I, I think kinda
coming back to, to people like Andy

and Jeremy, these are, these are people
that we know to be just really, really

beautiful human beings who, who are,

to sort of like put

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: perspective strong opinions
strongly held- But then also able

to, to understand and, and to, to
have that, that sort of respect.

And, and, and I think that that's,
that's the conditions by which, you

know, good conversation… Like, we,
we unfortunately, in, at least in

part to how the internet has unfolded,
the polarization and more of the

conversations being shut down and,
and more of the conversations not

being able to, uh, us to be able to
have healthy debate, in a way where

it's like it's all grounded in shared
understanding or, or a, a desire to,

understand, a desire

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: address the problems of the world.

it's just, you know, go to their different
camps and information bubbles and, and

hang out there because it's comfortable.

And so, once again, how might we, uh,
design the conditions by which more

healthy conversation and

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: and stuff is able to happen that
then translates into good action that is,

that has been put through this friction
machine that ultimately allows us to get

to a place that, that, uh, guess what?

You know, we're able to, to have
actions that are considered or

considerate of an entire spectrum
of perspectives rather than

my team won," like in, in the

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: and therefore we're
going to steamroll, everything,

Luke: is as well, like, you know, I think
it's, it's, you know, that, that change

does happen, that change happens slowly
and incrementally and I don't know.

There's something I'm trying to unpick
it in my mind as to, you know… I, I

feel at the moment like we actually need
to learn from the Luddites, in that,

you know, we look anybody-- you ask
anybody in the street about the Luddite

movement and what it was about, they
were like, "Oh, they hated technology,

and they were trying to smash machines."

And it's like, no, no, they
cared about workers' rights.

Like that was-- it was
literally a labor movement.

it kind of does--

There's something about that.

I mean, large parts of that
is probably spin as well.

It's, you know, it's, it's post-spin and
post-recontextualization of the situation.

But, you know, part of it as well, that
message can get lost so easily, and

especially when it is like a extremely
like, polarizing way of doing it.

there is a potential risk that it's
like the, the modern lu- modern

day Luddites, who actually, you
know, do-- it's the same things.

This-- They're actually
shouting about the same things.

They're sh- caring about the same things.

might in the future get, you know,
branded in the same way that it's,

"Oh, they were just techno-hating,
anti-progression conservatives."

Brad: and that, and

painted

Luke: It is already how
they're being painted.

Brad: right

Luke: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brad: Yeah, it's like, "Oh, yeah, you
all, you all just don't get it, and,

you know, this stuff can cure cancer, so
you don't wanna cure cancer?" It's like,

no, no, no, we're just saying you're a
shithead who's, who is, just trying to,

to scale things and not, not consider
its, its very real effects on society

because you are incentivized to try

couple billion, right?

Like,

Luke: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brad: that, that is, that is, that is

needs to be dismantled because, like, we,
we have to be like, yes, what's going on

here and what this technology can do?"
It, like, there's, there's a lot here,

but it's like you're not the right person
to, to… You're not the right people

be shepherding this stuff

Luke: Who--

Brad: I think that you're

Luke: Like, who knew that putting, like,

straight white men in charge would
result in bad morals and ethical--

bad moral and ethical decisions?

Anyway, um, uh, that's,
that's another one to unpack.

Yeah.

Brad: stuff and, um, I've been chatting
with him, and he, he's kinda put together

some, some stuff that's, like, some
really good… You know, a- as we, like,

look into the development of software,
Went to, like, the Into Design Systems

conference, and, like, every single talk
was just like, these, workflows, you

know, these multi-agentic workflows." And
it's like… And it's, it's genuinely,

like, impressive stuff, and it's very easy
to see how, yep, like, this is, this is

where things are going. This is what our
course is, is, like, talking about, where

it's like, "Oh, okay, yep, we do this.

It gets passed off, it gets passed off.

We do these things and w- and we have
these, you know, all of these things

that are there to inject quality at every
step of the way, check quality, making

sure that what comes out the other end
is, is sound in, in what we're intending

on creating, even as we're using these
non-deterministic systems to make them."

So that's this thing.

Here's a b-

machine, a big

Luke: Yep.

Brad: machine where out the
other end comes some stuff.

Now, this is what's very interesting
because one of the biggest things

about this, this new paradigm is
that historically it's been people

like us, the people who can write
the code and, and design the things,

that have held a monopoly on how
the software gets built, right?

One of the interesting qualities about
this technology is that it is natural

language, and nat- natural language, uh,
comes in the form of speech and text,

and well, guess what human beings do?

We talk, as, as crappy as the
education uh, may have, have evolved

much, like, love that it

Luke: Mm.

Brad: uh, people generally know

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: Now, so what this means is that the
people who been boxed out of the design

and, software creation process, now have
a voice can be plugged into, in meaningful

ways, this Rube Goldberg machine, right?

Because ultimately, we're sort of
describing what our intent is, we're

able to sort of, like, put that in there.

So we have is the opportunity, as
everyone's creating this whole Rube

Goldberg machine, to, to basically
answer the question, like, is it good?

Well, we could put- Is it good the
deepest levels into the the, stew,

into the, into the mix, right?

Into

cauldron of, of how software

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: And that's what, what
Dan's, Dan's been doing.

Like, here's these things, like around
harm reduction, around accessibility,

around, you know, not being biased, around
sort of, you know, being good stewards.

'Cause

stuff is increasingly automated,

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: pretty fucking important to
bake that into the process so that

we're not ending up with a bunch
of, a, a bunch more bias, a bunch

more sort of just shit, right?

So what does that actually look like?

Well, out that there's been a
organizations who've been doing a bunch

of important work for a very, very,
very long time, like the UN, on things

like, you know, here are these global
initiatives to end poverty, to address

climate change, to do all of these things.

And so it becomes how do we literally
inject that, that thinking, that,

here we have thought for decades upon

about what a better world looks

Luke: Hmm.

Brad: And we have been outside
of this sort of, the technosphere

because, like, that's,

reserved for the Silicon

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: types who, like, know how, how
to write, like, the code and are, that

are ultimately influencing things.

So relegated to, you if you're lucky,
in the EU yelling at and slapping

the wrists from afar, these, these
companies and stuff does it look

like to actually weave them in?

Luke: if you wanna talk about
rose-tinted glasses, like, I mean, but

that, th- there's a real possibility
that that could actually happen.

It's just who's making those connections?

That's, you know, which
of the tech companies are

actually gonna listen to that?

'Cause it's really interesting, 'cause,
like we've, we've been doing similar

work at, uh, not similar work, but
same concept work at Zero Height.

Like, we've been looking at, like,
okay, well, how can we actually bake

in, you know, when, when we're… So
when people are using an MCP server and,

like, doing… Uh, like we were talking
about it today, it's like, well, but you

can't ensure good output no matter what.

Like, you just can't ensure good output.

And it's like h- surely there are
ways that we can bake in base level

rules around things like accessibility
and things like, you know, um…

To be honest, like, I, I mean, I was
positing concepts around, you know,

uh, harm reduction in, uh, products
development and, and, uh, diverse and

equitable language and things like that.

Um, which, you know, is definitely
pushing an agenda, but, um, it's the right

agenda, so everyone else can shut up.

but like, I do feel like this s- stuff
is good, but I, I do feel like that is…

It's the, um, the block is until it's
baked in at the infrastructure level,

you're relying on the end u- It's
like Shell telling us need, that we

n- all need to recycle, or BP telling
us that we all need to recycle, right?

To save the planet.

And, and I feel I do have a worry that
that is exactly where the conversation's

gonna go in terms of like, there's
real opportunity here that we can

do this, uh, so you should do this
as a user of these, these platforms.

But that's paradigm shifting, right?

If people are already using these tools
to do things and baked into it is a level

of harm reduction and inclusivity and
equitability, we might have a brave new

world and not in the dystopian sense.

Brad: uh, Yes.

And I th- I think, think, I'll also…
I'll put something else on the table

here, because I think that what's very
fascinating, and this is… it's very

fascinating to hear Dan talk about
it, because he's, uh, he's been very,

to the technology, I feel like, at, at a

Luke: Hmm.

Brad: that, that I understand,
which is very, very interesting.

But I think that one of the other
things that I'm learning about

this as, as a material is that
it's, it's not necessarily, You

don't need to have consensus.

You don't need to have consensus anymore.

Um, this is what's fascinating.

If you get to something like the
golden rule, right, as maybe, like, the

bedrock of a lot of this stuff, right?

Which is, uh, pretty much if you had
to, like, boil it all down and look

at different philosophies, world and

so forth, like, there's
all some semblance of

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: like, that's like a good…
That's a good one to kinda just put

down in, into the… That one's good.

That's the, the… That's closer

uh,

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: like, yeah, if, if you're like,
"Eh, I don't, I don't really care about

humans at all or the continued existence
of the planet," like, nope, that doesn't,

that doesn't make its way in that.

That's, that's counter.

But then you get into things like,
okay, well let's, let's unpack things

like, like gender, something like
gender equality or something like that.

Now, here's where some
splintering might appear, right?

'Cause some cultures or some religions
or some philosophies, like, think

different ways about this stuff, but

But it doesn't need to be resolved.

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: just needs to be surfaced and

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: and introduced into this thing
where it's like, here's this general

concept which people largely think
is a good idea, and we, in order to

strive towards these goals, which I
think, like, the s- the 17 goals of

the United, uh, Nations, the, the,

or sustainable

Luke: Yeah

Brad: which is, like, no poverty, no
hunger, good health and wellbeing, quality

education, gender equality, clean water
and sanitation, affordable and clean

energy, decent work and economic growth,
industry, innovation and infrastructure,

reduced inequalities, sustainable
cities and communities, uh, responsible

consumption and production, uh, climate
action, life below water, life on land,

peace, justice, and strong institutions
and partnerships for, uh, the, the

further development of those goals.

Now, that feels like a pretty good place
to kinda go, those feel pretty good.

been a lot of

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: to arrive at that, of that,
at that mission and you ask any

Are those

Luke: Are those good?

Yeah.

Brad: They're, they're
probably gonna say yeah.

If we're, if you're making any
software on the planet, it should

be in pursuit or not actively, like,
in, in conflict with those things.

And what you end up with is kind of,
like, almost, like, a linting situation

where, you know, whenever it's like,
"Oh, you wrote your CSS wrong,"

and it's gonna, like, yell at you.

It's not necessarily, like, going
to, like, fix it for you, but

it's gonna, like, let you know.

It, it means that, like, if you're
just pumping in some, some into this

Rube Goldberg machine and it's like,

is, this is not

Luke: This, this

Brad: spirit of,

Luke: your country, yeah.

Brad: everyone's just kind of
like, "I don't know." Like, uh,

uh, "I'm head down on this stuff.

Like, I'm… I don't have time
to think about these, like,

bigger issues." Well, guess what?

Now this stuff just, like, is
part of the, the fabric of, of

software development and stuff.

So is it, it a really,
like, interesting thing.

So it's like we get the spirit.

Like, it… So long as we're
able to be like, "We're all

in pursuit of a better world.

We have different tactics or ideas
around, like, what that actually looks

like, and I don't want you to resolve
that, but I… But we want you to, to

understand,

Luke: Yeah.

it's funny actually.

I did see there's a really good article
that came up today around having a,

a… If you are using AI, to have an
opinions.md file, uh, which I definitely

recommend, um, folks do a Google for.

But it was the same kind of,
the same kind of concept, but

obviously at a personal level.

I like it better at a systems level.

but even like, you know, for today,
right now, it was like building up

a, um, a corpus of information that
is around how you think and what

you value and where your, like,
stances are to have it actually

work within those, those frameworks.

And I thought it was really nice
'cause I mean, mine already, I, I use

it too much, so mine already does it.

It started swearing at me, which I
think is great 'cause like, I was

like, if, if something was going
to try and mimic my personality

back at me, that's good first step.

Yeah.

I, I think that this is something
that definitely should be

figured out systematically.

I, I… Maybe I am in the depression phase
'cause I just don't know how we get there.

But that's for other people smarter
than me, uh, to think about.

There's definitely room for
like grassroots movements

of this kind of stuff.

I mean, you know, are you
in a products company?

Do you currently work in squads?

thanks Spotify.

literally, like, yeah, these things
can grow very quickly and easily.

yeah, I do think that there is
probably room for actually doing

stuff, um, at a lower level.

Again, I'm just jaded.

I'm just, you know, BP have a
lot to answer for, so, you know,

they ruined recycling for me.

But, uh,

Brad: I think that that's,

that's like one of the other things
that, that is just like a, it's a, it's

a hard thing with this, and, and maybe
this is, this is where we like wrap it

up, but it's like it is worth saying that
it's like we're out here, this exists.

It- we're without a, a safety

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: underneath us.

Like, th- this, this is the reality.

Like, people are making software.

This technology continues to develop.

People continue to still exist, and when
we realize that it's we're out here.

This is, this is a moment in time
that's never happened before,

Luke: we have to figure out a way
through, and the potential is great.

You know, I started this saying
how excited I was because

I'm making stuff, and it is.

Like in the last month, you know, if I,
I look at my sidebar of, of my browser

of all of the weird tools I've built,
and it's like, you know, everything

from like a life OS for me that just
pulls in from loads of ridiculous

sources to kind of create some semblance
of order in my brain to a, uh…

I, I've got a few things that are
basically trying to make me money at the

expense of, um, uh, rich capitalists.

Uh, but I don't think they're
gonna pan out, which is sad.

I've got a band organization
system that I've built.

You know, I was building today.

I was like, there are no APIs left
for gigs in, uh, anywhere, uh,

because they all got shut down.

And so today, you know, in half an
hour I built a scraper that scrapes

like 250 venues around the UK to
create me a filtered gig listing.

Um, and it's just like this is kind of
stuff that even… I mean, you know, a

bunch of this I knew how to do, but even
then the repetitive, annoying tasks of,

you know, like hitting every venue website
and understanding what they were made in,

understanding how the best way to scrape
it was, like all that kind of stuff, that

was done so quickly because it could just
iteratively do it for me in the background

whilst I was, I don't know, I was probably
writing a slide deck for something.

Who knows?

I was doing something else that,
you know, will probably get me paid.

Yeah, like I'm, I'm worried about this,
and I have a lot of concerns about it.

But at the same time, like there, there's
just, there is opportunity, and I think

that that is something to be hopeful for.

And, you know, if I do put my rose-tinted
glasses on, there is still a world

Where this technology could, could usher
in an age of leisure because it does

put us all out of work and they have
to pay us a universal basic income.

So just keep that in your mind as a,
there, there's a potential world out

there that we could literally just play
the guitar all day and not have to do

anything else 'cause the robots are doing
it all for us and they're doing it well.

I'm just saying it's a potential.

Brad: y- you're in good
company in saying it.

That's-- It's not, like… It's
not, it's not totally and completely

naive, but I think at the very least,
you're, you're saying, maybe there's a

more people are going to see

Luke: Yeah.

Brad: it's easier to

Luke: Exactly.

Brad: where the gigs are

and, and, and that's a

Luke: Yeah.

There's more, there's more families that,
you know, uh, one of the things-- the

next projects that I'm gonna pick up is
a life OS for the whole house so that we

understand where everybody's at and what
they're doing and what's going on, and

that makes for a more cohesive experience
for everybody because everybody's on

the same page and reduces conflict.

Um, you know, there's-- I've, I've, I've
known people who have built some amazing

like, you know, grassroots activism
stuff around like just, um, pulling

together, like audiences together and
pulling together ways to, you know,

create things to, uh, go out and protest.

Like there are, there are ways to
actually use this against itself.

Like you-- there are so many ways that you
can use this to make things incrementally

better in a multitude of ways.

Um, you know, even if it is also
just making stupid songs about

Australian prime ministers who, uh,
went missing in the sea one day, so…

Brad: Well, speaking of, uh, stupid
songs, uh, the, the, last question

I have for you, uh, before we wrap
up is, is what music, uh, do you

want more people to listen to?

Uh, we've been talking about
music this whole conversation

is a

Luke: Yeah, how do you
make me pick one, Brad?

It's,

it's, it's real tough.

I will actually-- I'll, I'll recommend
one probably mostly 'cause they're

top of mind, but they deserve to
be the biggest band in the world.

there is a, a band called Future Teens.

They're-- uh, they literally
released an album, uh, today,

their, which is their third album.

But they are one of my favorite
finds of the last couple years.

Um, they're like an indie, emo, punk-ish,
little bit of country in there, just

that really nice mix of everything.

queer band as well, and talk a lot
about like, That experience and they're

just, yeah, they're just one of those
bands that I feel like everybody needs

to listen to because they're just
cathartic brilliance from Boston as well.

So, you know, cool place.

Brad: fantastic.

then v- very last thing is,
is where p- where could people

go to find out about you

follow along with what

Luke: sure.

I chose a very stupid handle back
in university for myself online,

which is Lurkmoofy, uh, if you
can figure out how to spell it.

but it's, yeah, it's L-U-R-K-M-O-O-P-H-Y,
and it is generally the way

that you can find me everywhere.

These days, mostly on, Blue Sky and
Instagram, and you can also, uh, check

out the website lurkmoofy.com for
all of my ridiculous side projects.

Brad: Well, thanks so much, Luke.

This was, uh, this was a real pleasure
We're recording this on a Friday,

so I'm going into the weekend,

Luke: a fantastic chat.

I loved it.

It's great.

Thanks so much.

Brad: All right.

Yeah.

Thank you, everybody.