Homeschooling, Community Confidence, and Being Human at Work with Abby Covert

Brad: Hey, Abby.

Abby Covert (she/her): Hey, Brad

Brad: All right, let's get into it.

What has you waking up excited these days?

Abby Covert (she/her):
I brought two things.

So one is very life and one is very work.

Uh, the life thing is we are finishing
up first grade as a homeschool family.

So my kid learned how
to read this year, and

I

Brad: Wow.

Abby Covert (she/her): is cool.

and yeah, it's been like a
big moment in our household.

We got to go to Epic Universe,
which is a new theme park here in

Florida that just opened last year.

to celebrate him hitting his
reading milestone, uh, last week.

Brad: amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): that's been like

Brad: Ah, congratulations.

That's huge.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

I'm working on the homeschool portfolio
right now, and it's a lot of work to

put together 'cause we have like a
review with the state at the end of

every school year, and they have to see

like

Brad: Wow.

Abby Covert (she/her): of
everything, so working on all that.

Um, so That's,

my life thing that I'm very
excited about, and also designing

second grade is super fun.

and then the work thing I'm really
excited about is we're working on an

event called the SenseMaker Salon at the
SenseMakers Club, uh, which I run, I'm

not doing it, which is the best news ever

because I'm a recovering
workaholic micromanager.

So there's an amazing volunteer team
that like every day I wake up excited

to see that they're making progress
without me having to do anything,

um, other than believe in them.

So that's kind of my two things right now.

Brad: that's incredible.

Look, So the one is, is like you're,
you're able to devote your energy

towards your, your family, your, y- your
son's progression, and you get to see

the, the fruits of all of that
labor, that hands-on labor,

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

It's amazing.

Brad: then that's, that's come as
a result of you delegating and…

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

Yeah, no, exactly.

Like, I think about that all the
time in terms of like I lo- I left my

corporate world like six years ago.

Brad: Okay.

Abby Covert (she/her): when I did that,
I wasn't sure like exactly what that was

gonna look like or how long that would
go on for, but it, it occurs to me now

that it took me all of that time to build
this net that would need to catch me

my kid, I didn't intend to homeschool.

Like, we just, we went in that
direction out of pure duress.

Um, so yeah, we're, we're sort of like
making it up as we go, but also somehow

all of the decisions that I made over
the last like 10 years have really

like equaled, this being something
we could accept like as a change.

So yeah,

it's

Brad: Wow.

Yeah.

Boy, boy, oh boy, do I relate to that.

It's like there's, there's all this,
like, very strange groundwork that

you don't know you're doing, that
ends up coming to, to really put a

foundation in front of you that you're
like, "Boy, oh boy, I'm glad that I

busted my ass and did those things and,

Abby Covert (she/her): Yep.

Brad: know it at the time, but now I'm
reaping the, the, the rewards of that."

That's amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah, and

sometimes

Brad: s-

Abby Covert (she/her): is

Brad: s-

Abby Covert (she/her): You
know, like learning to read.

I I've had this conversation with
my kid many times about like,

"You know, you gotta learn to
read because it lets you do other

things." And he doesn't want to read.

It's like his least favorite thing.

He's a math person.

Brad: Uh,

Abby Covert (she/her): he's

Brad: yeah.

Okay.

Abby Covert (she/her): Um, and I keep
telling him like, "You gotta be able

to do this thing you don't wanna do, so
you can do all these things that you do

wanna do." Um, and I feel like that a
lot about the choices that I've made.

It's like it hasn't always been the most
comfortable choice, but ultimately it's

like leading towards what I do wanna do,

Brad: Yeah.

Well, and, and it sounds like you crossed
this threshold that, that is ultimately,

like, a pretty big ass decision of saying,
like, leaving, the comforts or, or the,

the… Whether, whether you can-- we
could unpack what, what comforts are,

Abby Covert (she/her): we

Brad: but

like

Abby Covert (she/her): but

Brad: stu- Yeah.

Yeah.

But, but an existing job, right?

And sort of out into the brave unknown,
uh, doing your own thing and stuff,

and, uh, that's all part of it, and
I'm sure that that brought with it a

whole bunch of things that you didn't
necessarily want to do, but had to do

in order to get to where you wanna go.

Abby Covert (she/her): There's a lot
about being a small business that I

don't wanna do, but I continue to do
because I want to be a small business.

You know?

Like that's…

I do

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): small
business, but it comes with a

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her):
that I could do without.

You know?

It, it was, it was nice when all
that stuff was handled, but then I

also think about the loss of freedom
that I had in that, in that context.

And Yeah.

I wouldn't

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): it

Brad: Yeah.

I think that there's no getting around
that just anything you get into is gonna

have a lot of aspects that you don't
enjoy, or it's not what is your calling,

but you recognize it as that, like you're
saying to your son, you do this to do

these other things, and it, it unlocks, in
your case, like, freedom and autonomy and

the ability to, to make your own path.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah, and
you have to be bad at things.

I'm not good at being bad at things.

Are you good at being bad at things, Brad?

I'm not good at being

bad at things

Brad: I've I've learned.

I've learned.

I've learned how to, to be bad at, at,
at things and to just, like… Uh, so

much of it has to do-- Whenever you
get thrown into a bunch of hard- And

you're into just brand-new terrain,
and I, I'm sure you've, you've

encountered your own version of that.

But whenever you just are like, "Oh, cool.

Now all of a sudden I need to, um,
navigate a healthcare system and

coordinate between three different
medical teams in this very dicey

situation and, uh, and also take care
of all this other stuff at the same

time," kind of, like, learn to accept
that you're like, "Yeah, I'm bad at

this," or, "I don't understand this,"

I have really no choice but to kind
of, like, embrace that and just roll

with it And, and frankly, I think that
it's very liberating to just, like,

be upfront and transparent with that.

I think I see a lot of people get twisted
into, to pretzels about not wanting

to show their ass, that not wanting
to show that it's like, "I, I don't,

I actually don't know what I'm doing.

I've never done this before."
In fact, I just got off of a

call where that was the case.

And, and, and the, the, p- the person
is knowingly like, like, they're, you

know, a more junior person, more of a,
like, an apprentice kind of situation.

But I think that there's, there's a real
hesitancy You know, y- you wanna do a good

job, you wanna prove yourself, you wanna
be competent and s- perceived as such.

boy, oh boy, I feel like the LinkedIn
landscape, the, the state of affairs, I

feel like there's not a lot of room for
that kind of just, like, vulnerability

or owning just, "Hey, yeah, I don't
know, I don't know about this."

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

No, I feel like

"
everybody is … No,

Brad: I'm ba- I'm bad at this."

Abby Covert (she/her): pick, pick a
specialty and get it into a sentence that

you can put at the bottom of every post or

perish.

Like, that's where we're at.

And like I-

We've completely

eliminated the ability to explore.

Like, I feel like, you know, in the, in

the

internet that you and I came up
on, you had the ability to explore.

You could completely change your focus,
and that was okay 'cause you had relative

control over, like, what the internet
knew about you We don't have that

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): We don't have that.

It is completely out of our hands,
and I think, you know, for, for

people that are in our generation,
you know, we didn't have to battle

that in terms of coming through.

Brad: Hmm

Abby Covert (she/her): got to have that
experimentation phase be quiet and in

private, relative private, you know?

Versus now, you're failing in
public, and I think that that's

a really hard thing for
people to, to grasp.

it's something that I see as just,
like, trauma from the corporate world.

Like, I see this all the time when just,
uh, training discussion leaders at the

SenseMakers Club that, like, I have to
be the one that reminds them that they're

a person and that their time matters,
and that they matter, and let them

having the time to have lunch matters.

Like, they're so beaten down
in some cases by these systems

Brad: Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): it's hard

Brad: Yep

Abby Covert (she/her): behave
any other way, you know?

Because you've been incentivized to stay
in that, in that place for so long, so

Brad: No, and, and that's, that's
a real service that you're giving

people and a real gift that you're
giving people, and that, look at us.

You know, we're, we're all a bunch of just
human beings wearing clothes, living life,

you know, sending kids to school, going
to bed, you know, getting hungry." And

it is so wild that we've kind of invented
these whole worlds that-- where we kind

of pretend that this shit doesn't exist.

Abby Covert (she/her): it's so, it's so
wild, and also, like, we pretend that

we're not all making shit up all day long.

the entire thing is made up, all
of it, from the very beginning.

Go back, forefathers, made up.

Go back further, made up.

All of it, made up, which means

we can make it up, which I, I feel like

that's something that I was, I was given
early in life, that, that perspective

of, like, you can just make it up.

Like, you could just

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): what
you wanna do and then do that.

And I don't even think that that was,
like, necessarily a good trait to have.

Like, in my early 20s I think it
was a little bit like a bulldozer.

but now that it's softened,

I feel like, yeah, I, I kind of feel about
it in terms of, like, I feel like it's my

responsibility to tell other people that.

That, like, you're, you're
allowed to make shit up.

Like, I remember a couple years ago I
was working with, um, Alfie Lowe, who's

a, a very close thought partner of m-
mine, and he was working on this diagram,

and it was, um, like a renovation on the
Ikigai, which is, like, the Japanese,

uh, foundational idea of how to find,
like, um, like a purpose in your life.

And it's, it had been rendered, 100 years
later by some dude as a Venn diagram.

And so Alfie was, like, playing with
it and playing with it, and he kept

holding onto this person's language.

And I was like, "Dude, why
don't you just change it?

It doesn't make sense for what you're
doing." And he was like "I can't do that.

you can't do that." I'm
like, "No, you literally can.

Open the document and change the label,
and then put, like, a citation that

that's where you started, and you're done.

Like, move

Brad: Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): And

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): kind of lesson,
I think, is something that I've found

myself having to give to more, um,
people coming up in today's environment

than I think we were had to… I think
it was very, like, um, that that's what

was going on back when we came through.

But now it's not

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): Need to be told.

Like, the idea that people
haven't, um, written all the

books, given all the talks.

I can't tell you how many people I
talk to and they're just like, Yeah.

but people have already given
a talk about that thing."

I'm like, Yeah.

but you haven't.

Like, your jokes are gonna be different.

Your examples are gonna be fresher.

Your comparisons are gonna be something
we've never thought of before.

Like, and you're robbing
us of that right now."

Brad: Yeah.

Yep

Abby Covert (she/her): that more
people than I would expect need to

hear, and that's, like, all they need.

You push them with that little
thing, and then it's just like,

See ya." That, worked.

Nice.

Brad: what gets unlocked in
that is i- is, is a richer

existence for everybody, right?

We are all the beneficiaries whenever
more people are out there sharing their

perspectives and, and, you know, it, it
really takes… I always think of just,

like, like the scientific method, right?

It- You can't just kind of, uh,
the, the whole narrative of, of

these single geniuses and whatever,
it's like, nah, dude, like, all of

this stuff has to be hit from every
single angle, and it requires just

different perspectives to all kind
of like arrive in the same general

ballpark, even if you tweak the label.

It's like, ah, yes, like this
is the conceptually, like, what

we're all kind of picking at here.

And it's really, really cool to see
that whenever you, y- you realize

that it's just all, oh yeah, we're
all just a bunch of overlapping Venn

diagrams, and we're all kind of trying
to figure out the, the bits that

are, that are shared be- between us.

And there's, there's a lot.

There's a lot.

But, but each of us has our
own wholly unique experience.

And like, that, that, that, the-- It's,
it, it is truly stunning that when

you think about, uh, uh… Is it…
I always forget, like, like how to

pronounce it, is like solipsism, right?

Where it's like, yeah, you're the only
person- You can be sure to exist, right?

And how you perceive red or
how you perceive a color,

you can only gauge that for yourself.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah

Brad: So that, so it really takes,
like, a bunch of people in aggregate

that are able to be like, "You seeing
what I'm seeing?" Like, whenever you

describe that or you, you, you say
that or you hear the sound in a certain

way, you're like, "You hear that, too?

Abby Covert (she/her): It does

sound

Brad: that, too?"

Abby Covert (she/her): we don't know.

We don't know.

Like, we're all agreeing that red
is red, but we honestly don't know.

Like, my red could be purple,

and your red could

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): and

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her):
know how we would know.

Like, that's, that's the
wild part about information.

Like, so I've spent

Brad: Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): career s-
focusing on information architecture,

and the reason is because information
is the most sketchy material on Earth.

it's unbelievable.

It leaks all over everything.

It comes out of all things, and the
most interesting part about it is that

it doesn't exist outside of the mind
of the person doing the interpreting.

So

Brad: Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her):
content is out here, content.

But what I think about this and
what I call it, that's information.

That's in my head.

That's based on every experience I've ever
had, and this, like, very unique quilt of

my mental model of, like, the whole world.

I just find that so

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): like, the idea
that there's objective truth to anything

just, it… Mind-boggled that we could

Brad: Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): anything.

And then every once in a

while

we agree on things for a
while, and then we just decide,

well, no, never mind." Like, did you

learn that Pluto was a planet?

Brad: Yep, yep

Abby Covert (she/her): me too.

It's not, uh, by the way, so it's been
demoted, but, like, that's a really good

example of, like, we all thought that was
true for a real long time, and just with

new information, eh, turns out not true.

And it took the colliding of, like, other
sources and other influences to get there.

And so Yeah.

it's like, it's all this big
kaleidoscope of, like, human

experience and, like, us mashing

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): So I think that's
really… adults that end their creative

pursuit after school, it makes me really
sad, like, when they just, like, go

into the job, and everything's about
the job, and they forget about that,

like, higher level interest that they
had in the subject that got them to go

to the degree program to begin with.

And I find that people that can stick
in that creative practice through their

working professional life just have a lot
more satisfaction with their career path,

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): and a lot more

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): as well.

Brad: Yeah,

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

Brad: yeah.

I, I think that the ability to reinvent
and, and cultivate our creativity on

an ongoing, like, as a, as a practice,
as, as a way of being, as a way

of, like, being in the world rather
than this, this y- yep, oh yeah,

that was then and, and this is now.

Now, fully appreciate that, you know,
we all go through different seasons

of life where certain things are more
a priority and other things aren't.

But at the same time, I think that that,
that's been, like, one of the biggest

drivers of putting this show together,
was, like, helping people reconnect with

and, and understand their own creative
capacity that is more an innate quality

than it is, like, any sort of, like,
external, uh, I used to play music,

or I used to do this, or I used to do
this, and, and, and I don't anymore.

And that, and it's, it… I, I
sh- I share wh- what you said.

It's,

like, it's, v- it's thoroughly depressing.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah, I,
I speak from major experience.

Like, I, I actually wrote about
this when I first left Etsy, which

was my, my last corporate job.

felt like in the, like, five or six years
that I had given to that organization

pretty exclusively, I had really allowed
the rest of me to atrophy, and everything

that I had put into my own creative
pursuits had been taken over by this

need to balance work and family, work
and family, work and family, 'cause I'd

also become a mom in that timeframe.

And so it was like w- a huge part of
the decision to do something else was

understanding that I couldn't balance
all three of those things, right?

I had to One of them had to lose, and

Brad: had to give.

Yeah, yeah.

When- something had to give.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah, there's
no way I was consciously gonna

throw away my creative practice.

Like, that was the only thing that's
made me happy for my whole life is

being a creative person, so that
one's not gonna go, and I'm sure as

shit not throwing away being a mom.

Crazy.

So bye bye, corporate.

Like,

that's… It really does come down to

Brad: Yes, I understand.

Abby Covert (she/her): Like, and this many
years removed, I can see it that clearly,

but I can assure you that when it was
in the moment, it did not feel that way.

It felt very

Brad: Yeah

…
Abby Covert (she/her): very uncertain,
and very like, "Oh, my fricking am I

really doing this?" Um, yeah, and now
I'm like, "Oh, thank goodness." Yeah.

Brad: That's, uh, that, thank you
for, for sharing that, 'cause I think

a lot of people need to hear that it

is, it is, there, it, it, again,
it kinda comes back to this,

this, this just weird, oh, these
other people have it figured out.

Abby Covert (she/her): No.

Brad: other people who are, who
are out there doing kind of what

appears to be really cool and
valuable and fulfilling things.

It's like, wow, wow, they, they
must have just been on that path.

And it's like, yeah, no,
this, this shit's hard, and

Abby Covert (she/her): Maybe

we should

Brad: it's only through hindsight.

Abby Covert (she/her): like, all
the things we haven't figured out.

We could do that, like, a whole
podcast on the things we haven't

figured out just in, like, in the
last, like, month of life, honestly.

Brad: Oh, my God.

Yeah.

I mean, we, we, we, we
would absolutely do it.

One of the things I ma- we could go there.

Uh, one thing before we get, like,
you're talking about this seam or

this transition, and, and kind of- It
sounds like a real reclaiming of your

creativity and your creative self.

What if, like, were there specific,
uh, practices or specific things that

helped you kind of recultivate it?

Or was it literally just like, "I,
I just needed to, I just needed

to, to get that 40 hours back," or
60 hours or however long you were

working at, for, for someone else.

Like, w- what, what did you find to be
helpful at recultivating your creative

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

Brad: self?

Abby Covert (she/her): I would say,
I mean, the space definitely helped

obviously, like the release of pressure.

Um, although I'll be honest with you,
and I think anybody that's left a,

a corporate existence, um, to not go
to another one will understand this,

um, the time is slow to come back.

Like, you don't actually believe
that you have that time for a

lot longer than you think you do.

And it's, it's sort of like a weird,
like, "I think I have these 40 hours,

but it feels like my body's not

allowed to have them, so I
don't think I should plan

anything with them for a while." but
no, I think that there was two aspects

of those early years of reclaiming.

One of them was recovery work.

Um, so I'm six years sober of alcohol.

It's a huge part of my story.

Brad: Congratulations.

Great.

Abby Covert (she/her): Um, and then
a- another huge part of it is I've

been a pretty lifetime journaler.

Um, and so, like, getting back into
a more active journaling practice.

Like, back when I was working, I was
doing a lot of just, like, jotting

down, jotting down, jotting down.

But, like, actually giving myself…
Like, showing up at my desk every single

morning to do, like, the, you know, the
Artist's Way, uh, morning pages, full

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): Mm-hmm … of

like, multiple pages
that you don't reread.

That, I did that for quite a while.

Um, and then I took a friend of mine,
um, Ellen Olsen Brown, shout out,

did, like, a journal prompting course,
and I had kinda hit a wall with my

journaling at that moment, um, and
that really helped me break through.

Um, there was a couple of them
that was, like, really intense.

like having to start every sentence
with, "I don't want" For an entire page.

Woo.

Dude, do that, honestly.

Do that

Brad: That's amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): Um, yeah, and
so I think that, like, journaling

and, um, and time, yeah, I think
time was a huge part of it.

I, I started writing a new book
fairly soon after I left, um, and that

book became sort of like process for me.

I was the most that I've been in
my creative life writing that book.

When I was working on Stuck, I showed up
at my desk at the same exact time every

single day, and I wrote to a certain word
count or a certain time every single day.

Um, and that was the only time that
I had ever done something like that.

I think it was because it was
so early in my recovery that

I needed something like that.

Um,

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): that, that was
like- I think the metronome of that.

and then getting back into working with
other people, that really helped as well.

Like, I started, um, an event called
Make Sense Mas not so long after

I left Etsy, and that was like a
storytelling event where I just was

recruiting people to tell stories
about, like, information architecture

challenges that they had faced.

Um, and that kinda started, like,
my brain going about like, "Wait a

second, I kinda wanna hang out with
these people all the time, and I live

in Florida. How are we gonna make this
work?" yeah, it wasn't so long after

that I was like, Maybe I have a club.

Maybe this is a thing.

Maybe…" yeah, and all these
years later, like, we have a club.

It's a thing.

170 members all over the world.

Brad: Beautiful.

So that, that sounds like a, just a
clear path of, you know, creativity

leading to, to community as, as like
almost like a pipeline of it's like

once you're, once you're sort of flowing
and once you're sort of moving in a

direction, and then you're able to
sort of like hook up with other people

who are going in a similar direction
or, or operating in a similar space,

it just becomes like a
natural, well, obviously

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

Brad: should just…

Abby Covert (she/her): have… I
have, like, a theory about this.

This is my, my late-breaking theory.

Okay, so I've been thinking a lot
about the club and, like, what it does

for people, because it's not courses.

It's not people teaching each other.

It's just discussions.

And I've been thinking, like, what
is it that people get out of it?

And I think that it's about confidence.

I think that you need to build a
tremendous amount of capability to get

to the middle part of your career, but
once you're at that middle part of your

career, you ostensibly know all of the
brass tacks of that capability, right?

And then you're sort of like,
"Well, what do I do now?"

Like, "What do I… Where do I go?" And
I think that's where community comes in.

Like, I think that peers are
how we grow the confidence to

go past our capabilities, right?

And that's when

we start pushing

Brad: Yep.

Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her):
people's capabilities.

That's when we start, like, making
new things, inventing capabilities.

and I think that that's something
I'm really interested in

helping inspire in other people.

is just, like, this idea that
confidence is actually really integral

to, like, being good at what you do.

I think people, know,
they do all the courses.

They take all the… They read all the
books, and they still don't feel like

they can stand up in front of a room of
their peers and talk about the thing,

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): right?

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): if they're

Brad: Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): enough times and
they watch enough people do it, and it's

a safe enough space, one day they're
gonna open their mouth, and what comes

out is gonna be amazing, in my experience.

So yeah, it's pretty

cool.

Brad: you hit on so many of, I feel like,
the subterranean aspects of community

and why we gravitate towards them.

But I really love how you're, how you
just described this, almost this kind

of collective plateau that we get to on
our own, but yeah, like, it, it really

requires ultimately just like we were

talking about earlier, it's like
you, s- you see that red, you see

that blue, you hear that sound.

it's that connective tissue that creates
this shared experience, but then also

helps us all collectively elevate.

Um, and I, I, w- as you were describing
that, I was just, like, thinking about

the, like the impression- uh, the
impressionists and the, you know, Parisian

cafe culture and stuff, where it's like
here's a bunch of people who are kind of

all in this moment in time and they're,
they're all really gifted, uh, people.

They've all kind of mastered the
craft of painting up until a certain

extent, and it's kind of could each
of them kind of gone on to, to create

and, and push the boundaries and,
and push things further on their own?

Maybe.

But because they're getting
together and swapping the idea,

you know, Bauhaus, you know.

Like, e- e- look at, look at any
sort of cluster of, you know,

Bell Labs, like, like whatever.

It's like it's, it's really,
it's like, yep, cool.

You get to this place where you're,
like, competent in the mechanics,

you're competent in, in the general
skill set, but you kind of, a- any,

any one individual is not gonna be able
to just, like, power through on their

own, and it's really, like, whenever
you, you hook up with other people,

you're able to transcend together.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah, like
ask any creator on the internet in

their specialty what their moment was.

I can tell you mine.

I know exactly the moment that I
was like, not just like observing

that there was community, but I was
like invited into the community.

And it was like in my late 20s by
Hinton at a random cocktail party.

He and I talk about it at least every
five years But like, "Man, really

glad that happened. Been so weird
if that didn't happen." You know?

Like,

what would've been, you know?

'Cause I was at, I was
at that exact place.

I was six or seven years into being an
information architect professionally.

I was running a team of information
architects, like mostly contractors that

I was mismanaging, but I'm sorry, guys.

Um, but yeah, it was like looking
back on that time, I didn't

know what to do with all that.

All I knew was to keep getting
higher paid jobs moving

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): ladder.

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): to be honest with

Brad: Yep

Abby Covert (she/her): I wasn't even
aware that there was a non-management

ladder until I entered the community.

And then people were like, "Oh,
do, do, do, do, do, do, don't go…

Oh, wow.

No, no, no, no, no, we gotta back
away from the manager ladder.

Back away.

You are not manager person.

You're definitely IC person." Um,
and I wouldn't have known that.

I wouldn't have known
that I was a specialist.

You know?

That was something that was

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): driven
out of me by capitalism.

It was like, "Oh, no, you're
gonna be a UX generalist.

That's, that's what you're doing.

That's what we're doing.

That's what the direction is." Until
you get into the right group of peers,

and you're like, "Wait a second.

That's, not what I want, and that's
not what I'm made for, and maybe

we do something different." And
ultimately, that's what I did.

Yeah.

Brad: amazing.

you're doing a great job at, I think,
articulating these differences between…

There are structures that exist, right?

Whether that's a corporation or whether
that's just whatever other sort of

societal systems that we swim in.

And there's a- all of us, in many
respects, are going through those

motions and living within these systems.

And it takes something to kind of provide
a, a different perspective on that.

And that something, it's having
that, that thing that kind of

just shocks you out of just

the motions of, of whatever systems that
we're dropped into, that allows us to,

to, to ultimately come back to ourselves.

And, and, and that's something
that's, that's very uniquely,

I think, like, human.

We rely on humans to give us those sanity
checks and those extra perspectives,

and that, that, that It's through that
conversation and stuff that, that I

think is really, like, fascinating, that
we're able to sort of go, like, "Oh."

Yeah, 'cause I'm sure that, that, that
community wasn't just like, "I don't

know you at all, but don't do that."

Like, I'm sure that they're,
they're like, they're, they're…

They were, like, nice about it.

Or were they nice about it?

Or were they like…

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah,

Abby Covert (she/her): later they're

like, "Hey, by the way,

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): the

the

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

So

it didn't, it didn't happen
at the, at the cocktail party.

Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): No.

At the cocktail

party he was like, "You're awesome.

You should be part of this Information
Architecture Institute thing.

Why aren't you a part of this thing?

Here's the website.

Go home and sign up."

And I'm like, "Okay, I will do that."
And I was the president of that

organization like five years later.

Brad: That's amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): stuff

Brad: Amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): matters a lot.

And like models matter too.

Like, role models matter a lot.

And I think, like,

Brad: Hmm.

Abby Covert (she/her): is also where you
see role models outside of your, your job.

Like, when we see role models in
our job, it's hard because they're

also… They have all this, like, extra
baggage of, like, they work at the

same

Brad: Yeah,

Abby Covert (she/her):
as us, and maybe we have

Brad: yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): But when you
have m- mentors and people to look up

to in a community sense, I feel like
it creates all of this opportunity

where, like… I remember the reason
I walked up to Andrew Hinton at that

cocktail party was because he had given
the closing keynote, he was funny.

He was funny.

Like, he was, he was really, like,
delightful and funny and casual, but

also, like, wicked smart and just really,
like, on point, and so, like, on message.

Like, you could tell what he went
there to say, and he said it.

But he didn't make anybody feel
like he was above them, and he

didn't make anybody feel like he was
like, "Oh, pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-paul.

like, let me, let me give

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): it wasn't what
I thought of when I thought of lecture.

Um, and I didn't know
that that was a thing.

Like, I'm a theater kid.

When I saw that that was a thing, I was
just like, "Oh, sign me up. Where's the

stage? Show me to the stage." I love this.

This is so amazing.

Um, and Yeah.

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): think
all the time about, like, he

didn't have to be the first one.

I'm sure somebody else
would've been that one,

but, but he was

Brad: Yeah.

sure.

Abby Covert (she/her):
was, yeah, that was there.

Brad: a- and you're touching on
something that, that I think is also

a pretty central theme of this show,
which is around attitude and demeanor

and, and this, this sense of, of,
we'll say possibility and optimism

and just, uh, almost kind of diffusing
or disarming a lot of the, uh, yeah,

standing on ceremony or, you know,
this is right and this is wrong.

Like, I, I personally, like,
really love, you know, humor

and sort of stuff like that.

I, I play those cards a lot 'cause
that's just kind of innately who I am.

But, like, I've seen many different
versions of it that just make people

comfortable and invite people in
and demystify or, yeah, get, get,

like, de-pedestalize, uh, uh, all
of the things and just put us all

on, on level ground so that we can
do fun and good things together.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

I mean, I think bringing fun back into
work is… I mean, I don't know if

it was ever there, so maybe it's not
bringing it back into work, but, like,

bringing fun into work, I think, is
not the worst thing that we could do.

Um, like, on the best projects
that I've been on, they're the

ones that have inside jokes.

They're the ones that have memes.

They're the ones that have those
hilarious moments where everybody

ends up punchy on the call.

And, like, that doesn't happen
just 'cause we all decided.

Like, it happens because
the environment allows it.

And yeah,

Brad: Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): not a
lot of environments allow it.

A lot of people have to be kinda,
like, armored up- when they're in

Brad: Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): corporate job.

And when you're armored up, you can't make
those authentic connections with people,

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I'm re-

Abby Covert (she/her): know what I mean?

You're the model.

If the executive is the only model
you're seeing, and that's the type

of executive you're seeing, what
you think you're turning into?

Brad: Yep.

Yep, yep, yep.

Do you feel through your- Past
job experiences, your current

community endeavors, and everything
else, like, like that, that sense

of like fun or, or, or pulse.

Like, I guess, have you found
ways of, of cultivating that?

Or are there specific things that,
or, or conditions or environments

that could be, is this physical?

Is this a virtual get-together?

That stuff, those dynamics
I think also play into that.

Like, oh, can you actually kinda create
these more authentic connections?

But also, like, are there, um, either like
rituals that don't feel cheesy or forced?

Or just like… Or, or how, how does it
get cultivated in a way that just doesn't,

yeah, like go, ugh, that isn't cringe?

Abby Covert (she/her): Oh, man.

I feel like I'm gonna

give the craziest answer, 'cause why not?

Um, because I think it's true.

Like, honestly, this
is where my brain went.

I feel like you have to
start inside of yourself.

Like, the… I cannot tell you how
different I feel going into a room

that I have to have control in now
versus when I was in my mid-20s, right?

Like, when I was, like, a

couple years in and I was still like,
"Oh, God, I gotta prove myself in every

meeting. I gotta be the smartest person
in, in every room. I gotta, like,

really be on my shit all the time."
And, like, if I compare those two,

one of them was having fun, and the
other one is absolutely not, and she's

terrified that she's gonna get found out.

And so,

Yeah.

I feel like in my current life,
all of my meetings are fun.

I don't know why the fuck I would
go to a meeting if it wasn't fun.

I work for myself.

Why would I

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): There's no non,

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): meetings.

Um, but I think back then, there
was no fun meetings because I wasn't

able to have fun.

Like, I'm sure th- th- there's people
that I knew back then that I am still

friends with, and even those people
remark on how different I am now.

And it has a lot to do with, like,
becoming comfortable with being

who I am instead of trying to
pretend that I'm somebody else.

Like, I don't have to go in and pretend
that I'm someone who's, like, like,

cutthroat and, like, go right to the
point just because I've been surrounded

by men my whole career that are mo-
role models that are doing that.

I don't have to do that.

And I think when I

finally accepted that part, uh,
my working style really changed.

And, um,

Brad: That's amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): for… I
think people that have meetings

with me are much happier.

I had a friend that I consulted with
back in the day, and after a, a meeting

with an executive one day, he goes,
know what I like about you, Covert?

You go right for the throat." And
I swear to God, Brad, it was the

day that I changed everything.

I could not handle that that's the way
somebody had described it, because I felt,

coming out of that room, I felt like I
was in some sort of, like, a fever dream.

Like, I'm, I'm, like, going into,
like, a Quentin Tarantino film,

and then I'm, like, coming out
into, like, a princess film.

That's my real life , you know?

And I'm, like, in there,
and I'm like, guns blazing.

Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh.

It's like, what the
heck is… Who is that?

But

Brad: Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): point, I didn't
have the ability to even go, as I

call it now, like, go to the balcony.

Like, I didn't have the ability to
have an external view of myself.

I was so of myself freaking the fuck
out that I was gonna get found out,

in trouble, whatever, it didn't… You
couldn't even hear what was going on,

and you just leave the room and have
to trust other people's impressions or,

like, the wrath that you left behind.

Which, spoiler alert, I did really
well in corporate America doing that.

Like, really well.

They just kept promoting

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): because that's what

Brad: Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): they

want you to go for the throat, and
that person did like that about

me, 'cause he didn't have to do and
he felt somebody should, you know?

And now I'm a person that
doesn't feel like you should.

Brad: I, that's freaking beautiful
because I think that y- and how you

started it in the, "Oh, it's kind of
cheesy, but it's, it's going inward,"

and, and what you just described is like
here are all these extrinsic motivators

and extrinsic forces that ultimately
leave you to behave in a way that

doesn't feel true to your inner self.

And when you are outside of an
environment that, where those conditions

are no longer true, you're able to
reconnect and have a much better time.

Abby Covert (she/her): parenting
honestly healed a lot of it for me.

Like, there was no way that I
wanted to parent my child the

way that I parented my clients.

No way.

No way.

Like,

Brad: Why didn't you finish your Cheerios?

Abby Covert (she/her): And it's
like, why is that different?

Why should that be different?

Like, why should my

interaction with other human
beings be anything but pleasant?

Why would I enter into unpleasant
circumstances on purpose?

Brad: Yeah.

I think, I, that…

Abby Covert (she/her): circumstances,
I make it be pleasant, which

maybe that's naive and silly or
whatever, but I don't think so.

I think it makes it better, Like, I had to

Brad: No, No,

Abby Covert (she/her): Security
office recently, and that was not fun.

But, like, those people looked like
they were having a miserable time.

a little joke at the person that
I was checking in with, made them

smile.

Don't know if the smile was fake,
but I kind of felt like we had a

moment, and it was worth it for me.

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): Like-

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

There's, there, there are those
interactions where you know- You're,

you're able to see through the, the thing.

'Cause m- a, a

lot of people that are in that office,
nobody's there because they're,

like, super jazzed about it, right?

Like

Abby Covert (she/her): for them

Brad: is, this is a,

this is a, a chore.

This is, this is an inconvenience.

This is not a pleasant thing.

Abby Covert (she/her): No

Brad: you have the wherewithal to,
to understand that dynamic and, and

get out of your own, uh, ego or your
own experience and are able to, as a

result, have a genuine connection with

Abby Covert (she/her): to

Brad: who needs it.

Abby Covert (she/her): I do have a
bad habit of doing this thing where

I try to, uh, crack a tough nut.

like somebody who, like, never is
friendly, and I try to, like, friendly

them, and it never fucking works.

That never works ever, ever, ever.

And so I feel like, most of the time
I'm, I'm trying to have a genuine

interaction with people, but also I
would say that my codependence comes

out in those interactions sometimes and
I'm just being a fucking people pleaser.

I'm just like, "This is so awkward, I have
to release the tension for myself." And

I think that probably is ego, you know?

That's about my comfort, not about theirs.

So,

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): Who knows?

Brad: I'm, guilty.

Guilty as charged as well.

Sometimes whenever it's, it's like,
"Oh, okay, this is, this is gonna

be… You're gonna make this difficult.
All right. Well, here we go."

Abby Covert (she/her): I'm gonna crack

Brad: And I… Yeah.

I'm gonna try.

Uh, but and, and you are right
that it's like some of it is

just, like, my own discomfort.

And sometimes, yeah, I've, I've
learned to, to back off and

just be like, "All right, like,

Abby Covert (she/her): Just

Brad: you're committed to it.

Abby Covert (she/her): That's

Brad: I get it.

Abby Covert (she/her): They're

Brad: Yep, that's okay."

Abby Covert (she/her): Sometimes
they're committed to the bit

just like you're committed to
the bit, you know what I mean?

you're just

Brad: What's fun, though, I'm thinking
of a specific garage door repair guy,

who had this, and it
took a couple sessions.

It took a couple rounds,
'cause he had to first come out

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah

Brad: diagnose.

I think that he did some work, frankly.

Like, 'cause it was, like, between,
like, the first and the second

visit, he kinda came back through,
and he was, like, notably…

Like, he started off in the same level of
kinda cold and clinical and just kinda,

Yeah.

"
I don't wanna be here either" kinda thing.

And as time went on, it was
like you, you kinda saw.

So, like, it, it took a little bit.

And, and I, I think that that's important
because, like, in those interactions

with like, at, like, the Social Security
office or, like, these things that

you're like, "I don't know"- If I made,
like, a material dent in that stuff.

Like, a lot of that stuff, there's,
there's often, like, a, a lag or a

drift or something that both good
and bad experiences have on us.

Like, it's, it's really through
the passage of time that, that

we start to actually feel the
effects of, of some things.

Like, like you were saying that,
like, earlier about, like, your tran-

your transition job versus out on
your own, that it's like there's,

there's a real, like, inertia

and there's some subtle,
like, subterranean stuff

that doesn't always, like

It's not super obvious or clear
what shifted, but sometimes it is.

It's just, like, that, that weird,
like, rare friendly interaction or

something that, like, can really
set a course in a different way,

and you're not necessarily gonna be around
to see the result of that in that person.

Abby Covert (she/her): You don't know
what's gonna h- I am thinking back to

the information part of our conversation.

I'm thinking like, "Oh my gosh, the person
at the Social Security Administration

could have, like, a checklist next to
them, and they make a check every time

somebody says that cheesy ass joke to
try to make their day." And they could…

As soon as I walk away, they could have

rolled their eyes at the person.

next to them and been like,

Brad: Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): 26 today."
And I have not thought about

it until this moment, Brad.

Not once.

Brad: more likely, I think that,
that people are, are craving a pulse.

They're craving that, uh, you know, A for
effort if for anything else, you know?

I thi- I think that, that, that's
all I'm after really at the end

of the day, is it's just like
just, just give me something.

Just give me, like, something that, like,
tells me you're, you're alive as well.

And even if it's just, like, a
small little thing and you're not

gonna crack a smile, that's fine.

You know what really
helped for me, though?

I had an English bulldog named Ziggy,
and the most hardened, straitlaced

just kind of miserable dude walking
down the street, like, Ziggy could

just, like, soften any person up.

It was like he just was,
like, so dopey, so goofy.

He w- he was, like, my
secret weapon to just, like,

automatically just see more smiles.

It was, it was pretty amazing.

So, like, we, we … There would be these
times where you're just like, "Oh, this

is, like, these dudes are hard and they
are not happy," and it was just like

doesn't matter.

Yeah, it's amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): I love that.

The worst, um, the worst offense that
I ever saw of a customer service person

not crack a smile at a great joke
was on, uh, two days before I married

my husband, we had to go and get our
marriage license, and we were eloping

in, in New York, so it's fairly easy.

You just, like, walk up to a
counter and you pay and you get a

license, and then two days later
you show up and you get married.

So as we're stepping up to the counter,
he pushes his credit card across the

thing and goes, "One wife, please."
And the guy just doesn't smile at all.

Like, he's nothing.

Just nothing.

And it so awkward.

We were just like, Nothing?" So that's
one we still talk about to this day.

Brad: Mean- and meanwhile you're
like, "This is the man of my

dreams. This is who I am marrying."

Abby Covert (she/her):
it is his first dad joke.

It is pre-dad by many years, but it is
his first official dad joke, for sure.

Brad: Yeah, yeah.

That's awesome.

That's awesome.

What, yeah, I mean, it's
like, no doubt, right?

That dude has to just be subjected
to some of the worst stuff

in the world, so it's like,

Abby Covert (she/her): He's heard that

Brad: it's like…

but it's, it's less about the joke
and it's more about just, like, the,

it's, like, probably just some form
of coping mechanism that just is

like, "You're-- I'm in survival mode.

I'm just, like, trying to,
like, get through the day."

And it's like, on one hand it's

like, man, I get it

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah,

Brad: they've gotta be a tough gig.

But also, also, do you
really, do do, like,

Abby Covert (she/her): People are getting

Brad: do you really?

Yeah.

It's like this is one of the good ones.

This is one of the good,

like…

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

Yeah.

It's hard.

It's hard.

No, I, I can totally see why he
would be all armored up, but also,

man, for my, for my comfort of that
story, it would've been better if he

would've laughed, but… Actually,
I think it's better that he didn't.

It… Honestly, if he would've laughed, we
probably wouldn't even remember the story.

Brad: yep, yep.

yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): it because it was,
like, transgressive that he didn't laugh.

Brad: yeah, yeah.

You're like, "Okay, all
right. Gotcha, buddy."

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

Brad: Uh, so, so Abby,
what, what don't you know?

What don't you know?

Abby Covert (she/her): what don't I know?

Oh, I've got a really good one.

Um, I don't know how to teach my
seven-year-old being safe on the internet.

I have, um, started looking into this
problem because it is a real problem.

We, we are taking

on internet safety as
a second-grade subject.

But, um, what I've come across is that
there's a lot of baseline humanity

concepts that you have to teach in order
for any of it to make sense at all So for

example, um, and maybe this is

'cause my son is naive, but, uh, at seven
he has never been around an unsafe person,

and he doesn't understand the concept
of an adult malicious towards a child.

And so very early in talking about
this internet safety thing, it occurred

to me that, like, I am going to have
to teach him about the world in order

to teach him about the internet.

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): and so
yeah, I'm like, we haven't covered,

uh… Like, we've covered biology
and reproduction, but we haven't

covered what he calls romance.

and I'm not ready for a seven-year-old
to have that conversation, but there's

parts of that conversation that are,
like, required information for this

internet safety stuff to make sense.

And so yeah, like, he keeps saying the
same sentence to me over and over again.

This is the thing I don't know, is,
"When you say they could hurt me, what

do you mean?" So Please don't answer me.

I'm sure that you don't
have an answer for this.

know?

I feel like I should let you

Brad: No, I mean,

we're, we're, No, we're g- we're,
we're, we're in the same boat.

right, so our daughter's eight and, and
same deal, and we've… We talk a fair

amount, I think, about, w- we'll say
vaguely, like, like what you're saying.

And I, I think that there is, like, an
age appropriateness, like, to a, to a lot

of this stuff, where it's, where it is
like, yeah, you don't necessarily need to,

like, get, like, way in the fray there.

But I do th-

like, some of her neighbors and
friends have turned the corner where

they're able to play, uh, online
games with, like, some, uh, you

know, like on, like, a server
where there's, like, a chat.

And, like, for us, that
isn't allowed, right?

Like, we can play and she has, like, her
buds over and, and that's… I, I grew up

playing huddled around a, a small TV set,

uh, playing video games with
my friends, so I'm cool,

uh, with screen time provided
it's, like, like, a social thing.

And I'm cool even if it's like, ah,
yes, like, we kinda have some, some

YouTube activity that's, like, there
that is, you know, sanctioned and

there's, like, a couple channels that
she's gravitating towards and we're,

like, checking it out and monitoring it.

But, but

she knows.

Abby Covert (she/her): you can do.

That's the thing I feel like we

should

Brad: Y- yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): is nothing you
can do to monitor YouTube for your child.

You can't block a channel.

Brad: Nope.

Abby Covert (she/her): can't, you can't
keep them from going to a channel.

There is nothing that you can do in
the YouTube world to control that.

I assume that there are

third-party things that
you might be able to do,

but I haven't

Brad: it's, abysmal.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah,

Brad: it's abysmal.

I, I was, I was pretty shocked.

Abby Covert (she/her): That's, it's

gone from our

Brad: yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her):
we're doing internet safety.

I've actually… 'Cause he's
very upset about it, and he feels

as if he's missing out on the world
because he's not on YouTube, and so

basically the deal that we made is if
he can do a 12-week internet safety

course with me, then he can have, uh,
monitored, um, access back to YouTube.

And yeah, we'll see how that goes.

Brad: Modern

Abby Covert (she/her): Everything is

Brad: and gentlemen.

That's

Abby Covert (she/her): course.

like, "You wanna do that? We gotta
do a 12-week course on that."

Brad: But, but, but it is, it is
interesting where it's just like, you

know, just even the one thing that,
that my daughter does seem to understand

is it's just like, okay, like there's
like language as like a thing where

she's like, "Oh, this person like
said this." You know, she'll come

home from school and she'll, she'll
be like, "Guess who said this word?"

And, and that's like
kind of front page news.

So she seems to get it from that
lens at least, but not, not through

like anything more, more harmful.

But like, but at the same time she's like,
"Oh, I understand why I'm not allowed to

just fire up, you know, join a game on
a server where there's chat and, 'cause

people could be like saying bad things."

And I'm like, "Okay." Like that's,
that's fine for now I suppose, But

Abby Covert (she/her): The, I ho-
honestly, I was very impressed that,

um, Google has a curriculum for kids.

It's for, um, second through,
second through ninth, I think, and

it's called Be Internet Awesome.

Um, and it's a classroom curriculum,
so it's, it's made for a teacher to

walk through with a group of kids.

So I've worked on, um, a version of
it that's, like, just for, like, a

parent and child to, to go through.

So I'm happy to send it to you, Brad,
if you'd like to go through it with your

Brad: No, that's great.

That's great.

That's great.

Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): some interesting
things in there, like sorting activities

of, like, different types of personal
information and, like, if you are in a

chat, like, what i- is it okay to say
what you had for dinner last night?

Yes.

Is it okay to say the
neighborhood that you live in?

And so it's,

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): things
like that, that they really do

need to be taught, unfortunately.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, we p- we pick at that
with, with a bunch of the kids.

We got some… We got a good smattering
of school-age kids in our little

neighborhood and, you know, from high
school, middle school, elementary

school, and we pick at that stuff.

We're like, you know, "Tell,
tell me about, tell me about

AI," or, "Tell me about like, um,

Abby Covert (she/her): Oh, AI.

Yeah.

Brad: soc- you know, or, or
TikTok," or, "Tell me about this."

And like, w- "What does your school
do or teach around this?" And they're

just, "Eh." And it's, and it's always
just like very, very, very depressing.

Now I'm sure that if the teachers and
instructors in the school apparatus

was hearing them say that, they would
probably be like, "Oh, brother,"

because we do do more than that.

But at the sa- but at the same
time, hearing these kids say that,

you're just like, oh boy, we are…

These kids are not getting
the education that is kinda

required for this day and age.

Abby Covert (she/her): when I see
how slow, like, our industries are

to react in terms of education to the
technology, I completely understand

why public education would not be up to

date on

technology trends.

Like, they are literally just
getting laptops in schools right now.

It's like, we're kind
of done with that now.

We don't really want laptops in schools.

We've actually done all the
research to figure out that

that was a really bad idea.

Whoopsie.

And it took so long, now
it's what we're doing.

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): yeah, the s-

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): pace

Brad: Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): education
is, yeah, slower than technology.

I think in the pace

Brad: That's for sure.

Abby Covert (she/her):
is definitely the case.

So

Brad: it's so tricky.

And, and yeah, like humans, adults, we
see it at an organizational level, right?

You get to see, like, kind of the,
the adoption curve and, and just

awareness versus, you know, " Oh yeah,
we're dipping our toes into this thing

or that thing or whatever," versus,
"Ah, yes, we have, like, a mature

practice or, or we're," whatever.

So it's like we- we've seen it over the
arcs of our careers just kind of like

how long it takes things to go from

this exists to this is, like,
fully internalized, and it's,

it's a freaking journey.

Holy moly.

And it's not an even one.

it's not a 12-week program.

Abby Covert (she/her): No, it's
not a well-read program, for sure.

But AI is an interesting example
of that because, like, I feel like

I fell into the laggard category
for AI un- n- like, unknowingly.

I wasn't paying attention enough to,
like, its impact on our industry while

I was, you know, not in our industry.

Um, and yeah, I feel like I kinda,
like, woke up and, oh my gosh, all of

a sudden we're at, like, peak adoption,
and I have no idea how that happened.

Um, but if I look back through the
discourse, it's like, God, people

that have been working on AI probably
think, "Well, finally we're getting

somewhere with this thing," 'cause
they've been trying for a long time.

So Yeah.

it's interesting.

Everybody's, like, on their own
timeline of their field, and then

their life is a slightly different one.

Like, there's a whole aspect of, like,
if you plant a tree, you're not actually

gonna enjoy the shade of it, but It will
provide shade, so, like, is, that enough?

And I think, like, in discourse,
a lot of it comes down to that.

Like, the thing that you bring up
might take your entire life to take

hold, then one day it could be the
thing that you're remembered for.

It could be the thing that provides

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): So- Yeah.

Brad: It is, it is really to see that.

I think about that all the
time in this day and age just

because there's so much now.

there's been so many, like post-humous
artists and cr- musicians or painters or,

or just other people that I've recently
been surprised by that I was like, "Oh,

wow, they didn't They weren't around.

I didn't know.

So Rachel Carson is, is from Pittsburgh
and, you know, we got the Rachel

Carson Bridge and the Rachel Carson,
uh, Trail and, and all of this stuff.

I didn't know that, she wasn't around
for the success of Silent Spring.

That, so she was just, like, laboring for

years and years and years, and
I, I didn't know until very, very

recently that I'm like, "Whoa, okay."

And, and yes, b- whether that's, uh,
you know, Otis Redding and certainly,

like, Van Gogh and other people, it's

like, yeah, like that impact a,
a lifetime of work or whatever.

It's like Dock of the Bay, I
didn't realize that, uh, with Otis

Redding, it, he recorded that, died.

Steve Cropper and the rest of the,
the backing band at Stax Records,

like, they had to, like, go in
afterwards and record that song and

then release it in a, in a hurry.

there's a great, uh, documentary about
Stax Record in, in, in, in Memphis,

and he was just like, "I hate that
song." Like, I… It, it was like,

"It was the worst experience of my
life," because it's like, "Here's my,

Abby Covert (she/her): But

Brad: but, but he… It's like, "My
friend died," and then they're like,

"Shit, we gotta release a record you,
we need you to go play on this so that

we can release it and kinda, like,
uh, not quite cash in on, on this

tragedy, but at the same time, kind of."

And, uh, and boy, oh boy.

But, but I think about, like, all
of, like, this stuff now where it's

just like so much is being born.

Like, so much, uh, uh,
we are able to create.

Uh, it's a lot.

The bar is so much lower that it's
just like how in the absolute world

are just even our future selves, but
certainly future generations, gonna

sift through all of this stuff and,

like, who, who's been doing, like,
really, like, good work in their era

that just, like, they got it right.

They're not gonna be around to,
to, sit under the tree like you

said and, and get that shade.

But, like, they were there humming along,
getting all the things right, and, um,

weren't around to, to reap the rewards.

Abby Covert (she/her): Well, in,
in the world of the internet, I

feel like everything is sliding
off of this invisible cliff too.

Like- people change blogging platforms
or just stop paying their URL, uh,

domain fee, and the next thing you
know, like, everything that they've ever

written on the, on the internet is gone.

Like, there was a, there was

a publication called The Pastry Box, um,

maybe

Brad: Oh, I loved the Pastry Box.

Abby Covert (she/her): I I

Brad: I sure did.

I contributed to it, yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): and I'm
like, man, that was some of the best

writing that I did in that season
of my life, and like, it's nowhere.

I don't even think I have a copy of
it anymore, and it's so weird to think

about, but like, that's so common.

Like, when I was working at the, the
Information Architecture Institute,

we did this project that was, uh…

I called it a barn raising, and it
was like our library, which was just

a list of links, was 60% deprecated,
just like all the links were dead.

And so, we assigned volunteers to,
like, go and find the new links.

Well, 10 years later, I go
into that spreadsheet, and

all the links are dead again.

Like, all of that work is just
gone, and it's unbelievable.

Like, you know, God bless the
WayBack Machine, but it's not enough.

Like, that's not enough

Brad: Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): save this
discourse that is falling off of a cliff.

Yeah.

Brad: Yeah.

There's, there's a lot there, and as
somebody who, yeah, it's like my entire

existence and I, I owe everything to
the fact that I have this blog and

have been at it for as long as I have.

But even me, I, I've been, uh, it's,
it's been a little bit because, like

you said, like changing blogging plat-
platforms and stuff like that, like

that's like where I'm at right now, and
so I'm in this like very like weird thing.

But it's so eager to, to be able to
have the head space to be able to like

address that because I have so much
that I want to… Like, the fire hose

is kinked right now, and in order to
unkink it, I need to, to do some tech

things in order to make that happen.

But like,

back to community and back to, just
like visibility and sharing and like

doing all of like that stuff, it's
really in the, the lived memory of

everybody, where it's like the…

A spreadsheet is gonna die, right?

Because it's like behind
like closed doors.

And, and so there's really just like
this, this… I, I have this instinct,

and again, my, my tech infrastructure
is currently kinked, but I'm so excited

to break through there because I'm like,
my theory at least, I'll try it out on

you and you tell me if it, I'm right
or wrong, is like you, you collectively

keep the ball in the air, right?

You collectively… It's, it's almost
like, like how trademark works.

It's like trademark works
and is enforced by usage.

If you like trademark a thing like
legally, but you're like not out in the

world actually like using it, well then
like somebody else can kinda c- come in

and they could actually say like, "Look,
like this thing is, is dead or stale."

So it's really through like the
kind of communal effort that, that

we kinda keep these things alive.

And that's why This moment in time
is such a weird double-edged sword

where you kinda have, AI coming in and
simultaneously, like, polluting a bunch

of things, but also providing a lot of
people the superpowers and the ability

to finally get their personal site, uh,
up and out into the world, and to start

writing and to share the thoughts that
are in their heads, because that was,

that was prohibitive, especially the way
that the, the field has gone and where

it's like, "Oh, you need to, like, learn
React, and you need to, like, get, you

know, a master's degree level education
just to get your website off the ground."

And it's like, it- in many respects
we're, we're kinda back to li- literally

the meeting I was on just before.

We were just like, in so many
respects we're just back to, "Here's

a couple files, here's a folder
with some images in 'em," and that's

all you need to make a website now.

And, and, and that's always been
true, but, like, some weird thing

happened where it just got way
more complex than it needed to be.

And so we're now in a place where the
opportunity is there, and that's not

to say it's a given, and that's why I
think it takes, like, our collective

efforts to just, like, kinda keep this
stuff going and to, to make it easy and

to make it fun and to make it communal,
to, to be linking to one another again

and, having these kinds of conversations.

So, so it's, it's how do we take
this, which feels very natural, right?

Like, like conversation and, and just
kinda translate that back into the,

the digital world where whenever we
got started putting things on the

internet, it was more prohibitive, right?

It… You did require… It,
it required some know-how.

It required some, some technical chops.

And we're now at a place where it's
like, if you got something to say,

it's actually never been as, as easy
to, to say it and do it on your terms.

I think that that's really, like,
the… That's the crux of, like, the

indie web movement and all that stuff.

But, like, whenever you, like, look
at that stuff, at least historically,

it's been like, it, it still feels
kind of overwhelming to people.

There's like, "Oh, there's some, some
tech." It gets into, like, the techy

weeds, I think, a little bit more than

most people would like.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah,
Dreamweaver and AI are not the same.

Like, Dreamweaver could not take
down your computer, you know?

Like, AI can- can screw that up.

Like, you can really do some

damage.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Abby Covert (she/her): I speak

from experience of vibe coding
myself into quite a pickle.

Um, but no, I f- I feel like that's
something… I've, I've been really

interested in this because, like, I'm
really wondering if it is a new group of

people or if it is the same persona of
people that is using these AI tools to,

quote, "get their, their message out."

Because I don't know, it feels very
similar to me in terms of the people

and the voices and the executions.

Like, I'm seeing a lot more,
democratization of the technology layer,

but I don't know that it's
really spreading outside

of the technology industry.

Like, for example, I don't know
if my neighbor down the street

who's never worked in tech is
able to vibe code something.

I don't think so.

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her):
I think that that, that

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): like, even
though they can access ChatGPT,

even though they could, like, know,
ask for what they want, it's going

to give them something that they are
not going to know what to do with.

And then, like, for, for somebody like
me who's not a coder, I can work with

ChatGPT or a- an AI get all that onto

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): the

Brad: Yeah.

you're, you're adjacent.

Yeah, you're adjacent.

You understand.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah, But, like, I

Brad: Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): like, a very
young print designer in my first IA

job, I, I was right out of print school,
and this engineer sat me down and

taught me about, like, the front end
and the back end and the middle tier.

And it was like, oh.

oh.

You know?

And, like, I haven't given
that lesson to my neighbor

down the street who doesn't
work in tech, you know?

So it's like, I, I feel like
it has the potential, but it

still is a technical adventure.

So I, I think that, like,

Brad: Yep.

Yep

Abby Covert (she/her): it's not fully
democratized, nor should it be at

this point because it's actually a

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): But, you
know, we can talk about that

Brad: I do think, like, the word
facilitate has been something that's

been very front of mind for me
lately, and what you're describing,

your neighbor down the street, is,
is kinda what I've been working on.

Um, I've been calling it kinda mouth
coding, uh, because it's-- we're

literally coding with our mouths.

Abby Covert (she/her): word.

That's so

Brad: yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): Mouth

Brad: But my, my, my… So my wife works
at a counseling practice, and the owner

of the practice, not a technical person,
but as the owner of a small business,

she's got her Wix website, and she's, you

know, she's, she, knows it
leaves a lot to be desired.

And we ha- we were able to have a
conversation together where I was

able to sort of like facilitate
the creation of the website, right?

Like I'm kinda coming in with
like a little bit more of like

the, the technical know-how.

But where she is able to articulate her
vision, her mission, uh, how she serves

the community, her core values, all
of that stuff, and we started there.

And it was so great because we
weren't-- we were ostensibly talking

about the website, but we didn't get
into the website at all until like

45 minutes into the conversation.

And then we were able to go- So
let's turn all of that, what you

just told me, into the website.

And sure enough,

th- there's a website that is like
perfectly articulating the stuff.

So I'm starting to do this more with,
like, uh, uh, trying to get into doing

this with, like, nonprofits and stuff.

So I have, like, a few folks, uh,
lined up, which I'm super excited about

because these are, these are people who
are doing amazing work, but they're the

ones that have been either intimidated
by technology or preyed upon or,

you know, there's a whole industry of,

Abby Covert (she/her): Oh yeah

Brad: know, we're going to…

Yeah.

So, so it's like, how do you, like, in
your own words, you know, like, describe

what it is you do, describe your values,
describe where it is you're, what, what

you're wrestling with, what audiences
you're serving, all of that stuff.

Just, like, just, just get it all out.

And what I think is so, like, genuinely
exciting for me in this moment is, is

that those people who are very, very
skilled, very gifted, and very, you know,

doing these very noble things but don't
have the technical firepower or enough

bankroll to have professional designers
and developers on hand, well, guess what?

Now we professional designers and
developers can help, like, facilitate

the creation of this stuff, right?

Like, like, so, so it's, it's kind of
what, at least on paper, the gig has

always been as a designer developer is,
like, oh, yeah, we're gonna come in, we're

gonna, like, do this research and we're
gonna do all this stuff, and it's like…

But now we just get to, like, do it kind
of like, real time and live and react

to something and, like, get the, the
person who's in charge of donations and

the other person that's in charge of,
like, the operations and this, these

people that are, like, bring them all in.

Like, like, it's a party.

Like, let's, like, get everybody in here.

Everybody say your wish list.

Everybody say what you care about.

Everyone say, like, what you're scared
about or, or the things that you don't

wanna have happen, and let's just, like,
bang this out and, and get something,

like synthesize it all and put it
into an actual container right now,

right now, like, like, on this call.

And, and, like, the people that I've done
this with, they're like, "Holy shit."

Abby Covert (she/her): it's Like, magic.

Brad: Like, holy shit, holy shit.

It, it really is.

it, it doesn't feel like the whole
make me a website for a nonprofit.

it's emerged from this very,
like, organic conversation.

And I'm like, this feels like
a very healthy design process.

This feels like a very
healthy development process.

It's not to say that it isn't rigorous,
but we're not, like, allowing the

spreadsheets and the personas and the
wire frames and the, and the specific

languages to, to ultimately, like,
get in the way and, and add friction

to this process of just kinda going,
"We're here to make a website together.

Let's, let's get to it." It's, it,
it just feels more direct and, and

I'm, I'm

Abby Covert (she/her): I,

Brad: frankly, I'm here, I'm here for it.

Abby Covert (she/her): I'm, I'm, so…
I'm fascinated to hear, like, how this

progresses because, like, while you
were talking through the example, I

was simultaneously like, "Yes, that
would be excellent in the context

where you're working with kind people
that are doing things all in the same

direction." Also, if you were talking
about a corporate environment right now

with all sorts of, like, ego and power
play, and you did exactly what you just

said, you just created a nightmare.

Like, I got an email from somebody a
couple weeks ago, and they described

that a designer and a developer
had been locked in a room with

a CTO for two days vibe coding,

and it was basically like a
hostage situation that this person

was witnessing.

And so, like, that's, that's
where I, go with it Brad.

It's like, I,

Brad: Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): all comes back
to, like, if we think about information

architecture in, in its earliest days
of the web, the thought was that, like,

the more thinking and pre-planning
that you put into what you're creating,

the more future-proofed it is, right?

And the idea of, like, being able to do
that all in real time live, like, I, I

just wanna know, like, where it breaks.

Like, how big is the organization
in which that no longer works?

Like, is it, is it, like, a
one apple spoils the cart?

Like, is it a personality thing
where, like, the wrong person

in that mix is gonna mess it up?

Is it a number of people?

Is it a context window
and, like, tokens issue?

Like, I don't know, but I feel like it

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): breaks at

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her):
And so that… But that's

Brad: Oh, yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): I have is,
like, I feel like a lot of the, like,

best practice and wisdom from, like,
15 years ago was from making midsize

websites, and the problem was that we

took that and tried to make really
fucking big websites and web

apps using that same
logic, And guess what?

That doesn't actually work,

And so now we have, like,

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): full
of useless garbage products,

and they all look exactly the
same, and we've all decided that

those are best practices.

I'm like, "I assure you
they are not." I assure you

they are not best practices, but

here we are.

if I get into a room with a couple people
from an organization and they're all

pointed in the same direction, and they
actually have knowledge of their audience,

and they actually know what they want to
accomplish, and they know what they're

trying to say, and the only thing that's
in the way is the technology part, it out.

But when one of those things doesn't
exist, somebody in your position is all of

a sudden in a nightmare, and I think that-

Brad: Yep.

Yep

Abby Covert (she/her):
to be, like, I guess, of

practice.

Brad: and it really, I think, comes
back to what we were saying earlier

about just, like, so much of this
has to do with, like, psychological

safety and just, like, the vibe of,
like… and the spirit of, like, how

you're sort of arriving at, at things.

And a lot of these, like, conditions in
these environments, uh, aren't conducive

to kinda good human being collaborations.

And, and so that's why I'm… Now
that I'm, like, less beholden to that

apparatus, uh, I'm now like, "Ooh,
here's all of these, like, really,

like, underserved, like, small,
scrappy folks that actually have

really dialed in their mission and
have been operating for a long time

doing a whole lot with a whole little.

And what if we kinda, like, supercharge
this stuff and, and get their mission out

into the world a lot more?" But it, it, it
does, it, it kind of, like, reframes just

kind of, like, how people are organized,
how people are structured, how, like,

you know, what does alignment look like?

Like, who needs to be involved?

Yeah, is Gary's presence in this
meeting gonna torpedo this whole

thing because they're gonna…

Gary's coming in hot.

we've be- we've been in enough of these
meetings with Gary where you're like,

"Oh my God," like, everyone changes.

Everyone changes.

Abby Covert (she/her):
of the room changes.

with some people entering it,

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): Like, I feel like
we can't get around that, and, like,

that's… That actually is a good place
to kinda, like, tie this up in a bow, is,

like, I think that you and I have power
in that we have a voice in this space

that people look to for expertise on
how to deal with really complex things.

And obviously,

we're coming from different specialties,
but I think that we share that.

Um, and so Yeah.

I, feel, like, a responsibility let people
know that, like, if their CTO is locking

them in a room right now and asking them
to vibe code through the thing, and that

is a gravity shifting power dynamic, then,
like, that's not what we're talking about.

Don't do that.

That

is not a best practice.

Um, and so yeah, I think,

Brad: Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): it can

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): It can be fun
to work outside of the system, but

when people are looking at us from
inside the system for wisdom, feel

Brad: yeah,

Abby Covert (she/her): yeah.

like obligated to kinda like do the
translation sometimes of like, "Oh, but

I can't see this working in corporate.

Don't even try it.

Don't even

try it."

Brad: Boy, oh boy, that's just been such
like a tried and true sort of thing.

It's, it's such like a, a meme at
this point or a trope where it's

just like, "Yeah, this is all well
and good, Brad, but it won't work

here," and, and all of that stuff.

And it's like, "But you don't understand."

And I'm like, "Let me guess.

Heavily regulated industry.

Uh, let me guess, like,
legacy, uh, tech stack.

Let me guess, uh, distributed teams.

Let me guess…" And, and it's just
like, "But you don't understand,

Brad, we are, you know, this bank or
we are this airline or we are this

whatever." And it's just like, and
everyone's saying the same things, right?

And like,

I think that one of the, the coolest
things about our ability, it, to, to kind

of like puncture through a lot of like
that apparatus and remind everybody as,

as you said really well earlier, just
like everybody's just, just human beings.

We're all, we're all just showing
up and, and that it's, that it's

okay and that you actually can
cultivate that within the walls.

And, uh, and that, that's been, I think
the gigs that have been the most fun

for me is where we've actually had the
authority to basically go, "You all

are gonna sit next to each other now,
and that's gonna solve half of your

problems and stuff." And, and it's,
like that's, that's genuinely like, like

adopting or, or helping facilitate like
a more humane and human, human culture.

Abby Covert (she/her): asking

Brad: That,

Abby Covert (she/her): you

Brad: could you ima-

Abby Covert (she/her): the
answer would be enough.

That would be a huge

Brad: Yes.

Yes.

Abby Covert (she/her): you

Brad: And

Abby Covert (she/her): to know the
answer, the world would be so much better.

I

Brad: That's it.

Abby Covert (she/her): always wait for
somebody to reply, and if they give me the

rote reply, I always go, "No, seriously,
how are you?" if they go, "Good, how are

you?"

Brad: it is.

Abby Covert (she/her): like,
"No, like, how are you?

I asked.

I wasn't looking for
a Here we are punching

in.

Brad: meanwhile… Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): you.

I

don't want it

Brad: how are you when they have a, a
virtual background blurred, and you just

see, like, three beings, three small
children running arou- like I've, I've

been on those calls where it's just like,
you clearly have some stuff going on.

Like, you don't need to, like,
put on a brave face here.

Like, you literally have three
children running around in, like, the

background, and it's okay if you just,
like, need to, like, duck out of this.

Like, what we're talking about here is
not, doesn't require your, your full…

Abby Covert (she/her): Yes … I had
somebody dial into a, a one-on-one with

me probably six months ago, and they were
in their car, And I was like, " What's

going on?" Like, they weren't usually
in their car for this one-on-one. I'm

like, "Why are you in your car?" And they
were like, "Oh, I had to go so-and-so. I

needed to go to the doctor, and like, and
then I had to, like, grab lunch, and I

didn't get home," dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

And I was just like, " We
can reschedule the meeting.

We should just reschedule the

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): I
don't think that you should be

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): in a Zoom
call in your car right now." Like,

I don't even think we had an agenda.

Like, this… There's no reason for this.

Brad: It's all good.

It is all good.

Abby Covert (she/her): They need
to be reminded that they're people,

you know?

Like,

Brad: Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): you're a

people

Brad: y- you talked about modeling
earlier, and I think that this is

a- advice for, for anybody wherever
they're at, is like, you can model that

i- in other people, if you see other
people flustered or, like, you're,

you're on that call or you're waiting on
something, or, like, you see they need…

Like, it's just like, just give them
that grace, give them that permission,

and, like, even if it's not reciprocated,
again, it's like that might be the,

the-- these are the small seeds,
these are the small actions that can

e- ultimately end up having that,
like, bigger ripple effect because it

eventually does get reciprocated and
it, and it can take root and stuff.

So, so it's like, it's not impossible to
do this, and I, like, I've always gotten

really bummed when people are just like,
"Oh, yeah, well, Brad," or, "Oh, you,

Abby, of course, like, you guys could do
this, but, like, you don't understand.

Like, I'm trapped.

I am a prisoner." And I'm like, "I
promise you that isn't the case, unless,

like, you're you're actually trapped
in a room by your CTO and…"

Like, you ha- you have agency.

You have… Yeah.

Yeah.

but

Abby Covert (she/her): send a

Brad: all to say

Abby Covert (she/her): yeah, it, it is,

Brad: yes.

Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): But,
but to your point, like, there

is, there is agency involved.

I think that there's, like, this
conversation is making me feel like we

should absolutely talk about privilege
at some point because it's like, yeah,

we have been very privileged to sit
above some of these problems enough to

be able to see them as meta patterns.

And people that haven't had the benefit

of that experience, where they haven't
been able to, like, dive bomb into

businesses that are at really critical
moments of their growth and, like, be

given everything in terms of access, like,
that's a very uncommon position to get.

Yeah.

And I think when you haven't had that,
it is really easy to believe that you

are unique, and I think, like, terminal
uniqueness is, is definitely, like,

a problem That it, it creates, um,
it creates, like, mental monsters.

You know?

It's like you, you think that,

like, there's no way that anyone could
ever tame the monster, uh, 'cause

I can see it and it's really big.

But honestly, in my experience, if you
can get them to, like, draw a picture

of the monster, they immediately
are less scared of it, and it's like

just that knowledge of, like,
get it out of your head.

Because when you see that it's, it…
Okay, fine, it is five content management

systems that are all controlled by 10
teams, but honestly, you probably thought

it was more like 17 before you drew

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): and you were

Brad: Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): talking
about it like it was a huge thing.

"How could I ever even make a
list?" And then you make the

list and you're like, "Oh, okay.

And then you can start to,

Brad: Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her):
you know, break it down.

I think that that's, um… I have

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): poster on my
wall that my grandfather made that

says A, To eat a whale, you must first
cut it into very small pieces." And I

look at That every day and think, "Yep.

That's, that's it.

You just gotta…" is no eating a

whale.

Brad: is beautiful.

Abby Covert (she/her): no eating a

Brad: That is beautiful.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

Brad: Yeah.

I, I love everything you just said, and
I think that, yes, you're, you're right.

There's, there's the privilege, but
then I think that the, the other word

to put on the table is, i- is diversity,
where it's like in a, in a diversity of

different perspectives, just as we were
s- sort of talking about earlier with,

like, the shared experience, right?

You have those people that are deep
in the trenches, and they are carrying

with them a very important perspective.

And it's the coming together of all
of those different perspectives that

ultimately allows you to, you know,
get out of some situations that

otherwise individually you're gonna,
you're gonna just stay in the muck.

You're gonna stay in whatever
situation you're, you're in.

So it's, so it's that it, it does really
require just these, these different

perspectives, just like you, you
received whenever you got pulled into

that community, where it's just like,
oh, Here is a different perspective

Abby Covert (she/her): Yep

Brad: ended up shaping your, your arc.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

something that I, I feel the need to
tell people that haven't spent time

in consulting, which is that, like,
when you're consulting, first of all,

you don't know what's gonna happen
after you leave, so there's a lot of,

like, shipping ideas that happens.

But also, I have never, never
one time been on a consulting

engagement where people that worked
there didn't already know what

the problem was and how to fix it.

Never.

Brad: Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): Never

Brad: Yep.

Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): well, but why do
you get to come in and be the person that

says it and they actually listen?" And
I'll tell you, the answer is very simple.

The answer is that the incentive
changed to the point where they

needed a specialist to fix it faster
than they could fix it internally,

and that's always the answer.

It's the answer is the incentive shifted.

Like, you might have been saying
that your content management

system is shit for years, or you
didn't have one, or whatever it is.

It's not until they got acquired by that
company that requires them to do X, Y,

Z, that needs the content management
system to be a certain way, that all of

a sudden they're like, "Oh, look at that.

We found the time and money.

We found the time and money, and we
brought in this person who's gonna tell

us all about it." And everyone's like,
" We've been saying this for five years,

that this is the problem, this… is what

we should do about it." And I, I hear
from people all the time that are

really annoyed by that dynamic, and
I, I want them to understand that

it's not because we're special unicorn
people that can sell it better, or

the glitz is on it, or whatever.

It literally is a

moment.

It is a moment that is, like,
striking, and if you strike too

early, you're not gonna sell it.

Like, in every engagement I've
ever done, if I had gone in six

months earlier, they would've
laughed me out of the fucking room.

single one.

Brad: Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): single one.

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): when am I called?

I am called when things
are a fucking mess.

So when I go in ahead of time when
they're not that messy and I go like,

"You guys are gonna have a mess. If you
don't do this, you're gonna have a mess,"

they're like, "Whatever. Screw you."

Brad: We're

good.

We're good.

Abby Covert (she/her): And then
six months later, it's like,

"You're not gonna believe what happened."

I'm like, "Oh, is it a mess?

There it is." And the
employees always know.

They always know.

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): of them.

They all know.

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): And

it's painful.

I think that that is the painful part.

Brad: I have always hated that dynamic
because, yeah, we've, we've felt the,

the, the people who are, who are living
this stuff day in and day out and have

been shouting themselves hoarse for years
trying to, to fix things, and it's like,

uh, I, I fully appreciate and understand
how that could go, feel sour whenever

it's like, oh, it's like finally getting
addressed, which should be a happy moment.

And that's, and that's where, like, w-
the, our responsibility is to basically,

like, connect with them so that it's
like their, their, their burden,

you know, we're mind-melded and it's

like, "Oh, yeah, you, you totally
get it, and I'm just here to,

like, deliver, deliver your message
effectively." And when, when people

hear themselves and, and, and feel
heard and feel validated and feel

like they were able to speak their
mind in a safe way, and then, like,

hear it reflected, then it's just
like, that's whenever it's like…

It, it, it doesn't feel as like, "Ugh,
these extra people came in and they, they

did something that I've been saying for
years," and instead it's more like a, we

got, we got our connection time, right?

Just like, just like the
person at the Social Security

Abby Covert (she/her): Exactly.

Brad: office.

It's like we ha- we have our
time, we make the connection,

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

Brad: I deliver some news on your
behalf, and then we, we high-five

and, and do good things together,

so.

Abby Covert (she/her): if you don't give
those people flowers, uh, when you're

in that position, you're messing up.

Like, at that

Brad: Got it,

yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): got, you gotta,
like… the respect of listening

to the history, the respect of
listening to their nightmares about

what they're f- afraid of is gonna
happen, all of that to me is gold.

Like, it almost always is

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): is, like, the
thing that's keeping them up at night

is the thing that I am very, very glad
that they told me about, 'cause it is the

thing that will crush

Brad: It's the thing.

Abby Covert (she/her): later.

Brad: the thing.

It it

Abby Covert (she/her): Every

Brad: is the thing.

It's like,

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

Brad: yep,

Abby Covert (she/her): But if you

Brad: And

what, what-

Abby Covert (she/her): just up
in their, they're just in their,

in their armor, and they're all,
like, protective and have to be the

Brad: Yes.

Abby Covert (she/her): the room.

They're not gonna be like, "Actually,
I've been keeping myself up at night

thinking about how this could f- fail
because we don't have a URL redirect

strategy." I can help with that.

Like, we could get that
together, you know?

Brad: Yeah.

Yeah.

And I, the, the other fascinating
bit about this very sort of unique

position is that y- we get to do that
with, like, different people that are

sometimes in conflict with one another.

And I think that that's always been a
really fascinating dynamic because when

you make those individual connections
and you're able to sort of like lay that,

you know, like build that bond, hear them
out, truly understand their position.

Again, asking, "How are you?" And
actually caring about what the answer is.

And then you're able to sort of
like hold this up and tell that to

everyone kinda collectively And help
people understand that it's like, as,

as cliche as it is, it's like, man,
like, y- your feelings are valid.

And like a lot of e- everyone
feels a certain way, and

they're operating in a certain,

place, in a certain system, incentivized
by certain things, rewarded by certain

things, punished by certain things,
and that is sometimes different than

the other people that are incentivized
and rewarded in, in different ways

and, and punished in different ways.

And whenever you're able to just, like,
tell all of that coherently, everybody's

like, "Oh," like, "Yeah, that, that
kinda makes sense that they would… I,

like, I… If I was in that position,

I would be…

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

Brad: That's how I would, I would
be as well." So, so it's… There's

something really interesting to
that, and I'm, I'm happy to take

those lessons out into a different
place, and specifically the world.

Uh, 'cause I think that this is what plays
out, you know, across political divides,

across, like, all sorts of things.

Different just, you know, whatever,
community meetings or school

board meetings or what- whatever.

Is that ability to, to just, like,
understand and listen and, and make those

connections by kind of like following
through and getting to the other side

of it, you end up with, guess what?

Oh, I'm scared about this.

Uh, I care about about the
health and safety of my family.

I'm worried about them, and,

uh, I just wanna take good care of them.

And then at the end of the day,
irrespective of what views or

positions they, they hold, guess what?

Everybody,

Abby Covert (she/her): Everybody

Brad: they want their family to be safe.

Abby Covert (she/her):
Yep, We're all people.

I have a, there's a, there's a metaphor
in my first book about, um, being the

coffee filter, not the grounds, and
this idea that, like, in the role of

information architect, it's really
important that we don't add any more

of the grounds when we're trying
to clarify things for other people.

it's like you don't need to

Brad: it's beautiful.

Abby Covert (she/her): opinion into this.

Like, this is a time where you are
taking other people's opinions and

other people's baggage and bullshit, and
you are trying to make something clear

and drinkable and delicious out of it,
and that does not require you to put

more grit into the system, you know?

So I think about that a lot

of like…

Brad: That's, beautiful.

That's beautiful.

Yeah, it's like-

Abby Covert (she/her): advice.

Sometimes you should be
the grounds, you know?

like-

it's only when you're an information
architect that you should be the filter.

But, um-

Brad: Well,

Abby Covert (she/her): I think it's an

Brad: but there's a, th- that's a,
that's a to- it's, it's like knowing

when to deploy certain skills, right?

It's like sometimes, like, taking a
backseat, like, you know, as a musician

it's like, yo- oh, is it my time?

Am I, am I up center stage?

Am I the one

sort of like shredding the
solo, or am I supporting, right?

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

Brad: and it's that,

Abby Covert (she/her): Affirm that.

Brad: like

Abby Covert (she/her): yeah.

Brad: time and having your toolkit

of, of things.

But it's like to, to have the humility
to be the, the coffee filter is, I think,

a real hard-earned skill to, to develop.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah, it's,
about, um, discernment, has been how

I've been talking about it with my
students for the last couple years.

it's like we have all of these different
approaches that we could take with people,

and if you're not careful, you get stuck
in one mode, and you're always just

kinda like going at people with the same
mode, and that generally doesn't work.

Um, if you're in a certain environment,
maybe it's incentivized that it does.

But for the most part, like in
your career, that will not work.

You will not be able to, be the same
all of the time to every single person.

Instead, it's about the discernment to
know when to bring out that education

moment, when to be the embedded partner,
when to be the, facilitator and jump

up and grab the marker, and because
it's all-- everybody's in their head,

and, like, you gotta get it out.

And like knowing kind of how to
approach the problem, I think, and

that's the thing that I'm the most
interested in, in teaching now that

I'm outside of the world of consulting.

It's like I can see

Brad: And…

Abby Covert (she/her): in a really
clear way now that I'm not trying

to, get through it myself you know?

And…

Brad: Yeah.

No,

that's, that's amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah,
it's, it's been interesting, so.

Brad: But, a- and, and adding one, one
more crucial tool to the, to the pile

is the willingness to say, "I don't
know," or, "I've never encountered

this," or, "I'm bad at this."

Abby Covert (she/her): Yes.

Yes.

Or like,

Brad: it's just being like, "Oh, okay.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah, or

Brad: This is new."

Abby Covert (she/her): that at the
beginning of a project, especially

an ambiguous, complex project, that
we actually don't know how we're

going to do this yet as a collective.

Like, we are in, as I like to say,
the land of not knowing, and we are

gonna hopefully get to the land of
knowing, but it might be a rocky

road between those two places.

It, I'll be honest, like

it

Brad: Yep.

Abby Covert (she/her): Um,
but if everybody admits that

they're on that journey versus

Brad: Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): ego pretending
that you're already living and knowing

and you're just waiting for everybody else
to arrive, it's like that is a completely

different posture to go with the team.

So

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): I see a
lot of people fail from that, that

standpoint of like pretending that they

Brad: Yeah

Abby Covert (she/her): on.

You don't know what's going on.

Nobody does.

Nobody does.

Brad: We're br- bringing it
all full circle, I think.

It's, it's nobody knows what's going
on, but we're here and let's be human

to each other and, and, you know,
do good things together as a result.

So,

Abby Covert (she/her): Exactly.

Brad: that might be a good
place to, to, to wrap it up.

So, uh, the only other structured question
on this show is, is, uh, what music

do you want more people to know about?

Abby Covert (she/her): Okay, so I have
an answer for this, and I went back

and forth on whether or not this was
a decent an- answer because I feel

like it's well-trodden territory.

It's not like unknown.

But we're talking about community, more
people should listen to the Grateful Dead.

full disclosure, TMI, I was conceived
at a Grateful Dead concert in 1981.

and so I'm very connected to the music.

I was one of those like little
kids at the Dead concert in the mud

with the, with the hippie skirts.

Um, so it's definitely like a big part of

my

Brad: Beautiful.

Abby Covert (she/her): it's like
my, that music is my like, uh,

nostalgia, like just straight up.

Um, but I feel like there is
something about like the community

aspect of the Dead that is

just fascinating, longstanding, and
just some of the best people that

I've ever met have, like, spent time

following that band or have like had

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): into them.

So, so Yeah.

I don't know.

If

you've never listened to the Grateful
Dead, go listen to the Grateful Dead.

Not their studio albums, though.

Like, don't go doing that.

That's not fun.

Listen to something else.

Yeah.

Brad: uh, what live album would you, for,
for the uninitiated or for somebody that's

Abby Covert (she/her): Oh, I'm not a

Brad: kinda wrote them
off in a certain way?

Abby Covert (she/her):
No, I'm not a tape head.

I'm not a tape head at all.

I would say like, you know, go to Dick's
Picks and like, you know, I trust Dick.

That's what I'd do.

to Dick's Picks

Brad: Live at the Mars Hotel

Abby Covert (she/her): Dick's Picks

Brad: is my,

Abby Covert (she/her): there you go.

Brad: That's, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dick's Picks.

they exhibited something and, and just
exuded something that, that ultimately

cultivated this, this huge community
and they, there is this, this feeling

of dialed in, like they're, they're
dialed into the right frequency, I think.

And so there's something…

Abby Covert (she/her): doing
something with their… They have

their own little economy of, favors
and gifts and mutual aid and like…

Yeah, it's just, it's just amazing.

Like, you can go to a, you could
go to a Dead show anywhere.

and even now, like they've really,
like the Furthur Festival held it

up for a while, now Dead & Company
has held it up a- as well.

Like,

we've lost a lot of the members at
this, at this time, and like still,

like the music lives on because
of the community, and I think

that that's really like amazing.

Like, just the people

Brad: It is.

Abby Covert (she/her): willing
to ship of Theseus this band, you

know, until, until God knows what.

I think it's so cool.

Brad: And it, it really is.

It's a, it's, it's, this snowball
that over the, like literal

decades, like many decades now,
it just continues to, to roll on.

It's amazing.

Abby Covert (she/her): Yeah.

Yeah,

Brad: fantastic.

Abby Covert (she/her): for a while,
and I think that that was like a,

it was a very foundational part of
my childhood, was like growing up

Brad: I bet.

Abby Covert (she/her):
who follow The Dead.

Brad: I bet.

That's awesome.

That's so cool

Abby Covert (she/her):
Yeah, it's pretty cool.

Brad: Amazing.

And, uh, and last, last real question
is, is, uh, where can people go to

learn more about you, follow you,
and check out what you're up to?

Abby Covert (she/her): I am not
much of a social media person, so I

don't really suggest you follow me
there, although I guess you could.

Um, I am at abbycovert.com.

Everything I've ever written is
there, um, at least everything that

I would want other people to read.

Uh, and then thesensemakersclub.com
is a, a good place to check out

what I've been doing most recently.

We're a membership club.

We run a meeting every single weekday, um,
and so that's about 300 meetings a year.

Uh, we have 40 discussion
leaders that are trained to?

hold space, not fill space.

And yeah, we're just coming up on
about 170 members two years in.

So yeah, come check us out.

Brad: Beautiful.

Beautiful.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Well, thank you, Abby.

Thanks for, for being here, for the
great conversation and, uh, yeah, it

was great to, uh, great to meet you.

Abby Covert (she/her): Same, dude.

I really feel like parasocially
I felt like I knew you.

but we did

Brad: Yeah.

Abby Covert (she/her): this was cool.

Brad: A great way to be.

Yeah, for sure.

So all right.

Well, thank you for being here.

Thanks everybody for listening and,
uh, we'll see you next time, so…

Abby Covert (she/her): Thanks.