Exploring Life's Design with Aarron Walter

Welcome to Wake Up.

Excited.

In this episode, I talk with Aaron Walter.

Aaron is the co-host of the Design
Better and Reconsidering podcasts,

the author has several design books,
including my favorite, Designing

For Emotion, and he's a writer, a
consultant, and a creative leader.

Aaron and I go way back and I have him
to thank for inviting me to give my very

first company consulting workshop back
when he was the UX director at MailChimp.

I hold Aaron in such high regard.

I really feel that Aaron embodies the
best attributes a designer can have.

He's thoughtful, he's nuanced and
empathetic, and I think that that really

shines through in our conversation.

We discussed the never ending
process of self-improvement,

the importance of curiosity.

How all research is really me search,
this concept of super activities, which

I have totally adopted in my lexicon.

We talk about fire and how to think
about money, and we discuss a whole

bunch more around living and examined
life and trying to be a good person.

Before we dive in, I wanted to say
that Wake up excited is a passion

project and is totally self-funded.

Since Aaron worked at MailChimp,
and if you've ever listened to a

podcast, you've almost certainly
heard a commercial for MailChimp.

I like to think that I'm
my own MailChimp for this.

So I have online courses to help
designers and developers and product

teams, people making digital things
level up and we have courses about

design tokens and design systems and
a whole lot more in the pipeline.

So if you want to support me, support the
show and learn some stuff along the way,

I'd really love it if you checked out
our online courses bradfrost.com/courses.

Now, without further ado, here's
my conversation with Aaron Walter.

Brad Frost: What did you wake
up this morning excited about?

Aarron Walter: I am excited about,
turning the dials on my life.

Uh, which I think is the core of our, our
discussion today, but am in uh, a passage

of my life where I'm really reflective

what, what a better version of Aaron
Walter looks like, intellectually.

emotionally, spiritually, uh, which
sounds very, you know, woo woo, but like

what, what puts energy in my battery?

What makes me satisfied with life?

Happy is not a word that I,
I normally navigate towards

because it's so ephemeral, but,

Brad Frost: Yes.

I'm going to give you a couple
of minutes to think about it,

and then we'll get started.

Aarron Walter: and we have complimentary
skills, the work that we're doing

on design better, that's exciting.

I'm excited every day to
watch my kids grow up.

I think that's pretty cool to just
see human beings change and evolve.

Brad Frost: Okay.

So the first thing.

Okay.

Aarron Walter: I find really interesting.

Brad Frost: That's, that's fascinating.

That last part is interesting
because it's like,

Aarron Walter: I,

Brad Frost: you're interested in tweaking
your own knobs, but it sounds like

there's also this, this understanding
that everyone has these knobs to tweak

people throughout history and living
presently are they either know or

don't know that those knobs exist or
they're, they're whatever and who's,

kind of figured it out and how do you
sort of apply that to your own life?

And how do you tweak the knobs to
to your own satisfaction which which

I love that difference by the way
of satisfaction versus happiness.

I think that that's like a really
important point that seems to evade

people a lot which is just like it's
satisfaction is like it just like a

deeper sense of tranquility or honor
or fulfillment versus this fleeting

emotion that is, that is happiness.

Aarron Walter: Yeah, that
that's feels right to me.

I, I really like to read and that's kind
of a big part of what I'm excited about.

Um, trying to fill a bunch of gaps
of books that I never read that I

probably should have read and also
dig into some stuff that's, you

know, maybe New and interesting, but,

Brad Frost: yeah.

What, what have you been reading?

Aarron Walter: I, lately I'm reading, uh,
right now I'm reading Donkey Hoti, which

was written in, uh, published in 1605.

And so, you know, like the human
experience, 1605, it's very different

and yet it's the same, you know, like

Brad Frost: Futility.

Aarron Walter: The

Brad Frost: Right.

Aarron Walter: suffering,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yeah.

Aarron Walter: read Le Miserable.

And, uh, that is all about trying to find
a moral code, and it gets so confusing

to one character in particular, I won't
say because some folks may not have

read it or seen the musical or whatever,
there's one character that Has such

certainty in his life that when that
gets shaken and he's no longer certain

about his moral code, he can't go on
living and he has to end his life.

and I I think that is fascinating
that, you know, I too have been

asking these same questions.

Like, what does it mean to be?

person to be a a good man, a good human,
a good father, a good spouse, a good,

you know, business partner, whatever.

people, people keep asking these
questions and they get lost.

They get lost in it.

And so I think, know, the more I
learn and reflect on my life, the

more I realize it's the same, it's
always, it's always been the same,

you know, I'm kind of like living,
living the same human experience that

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aarron Walter: of people
have who came before me.

Brad Frost: love that and I also think
it's, it's important to note that

you're a designer I'm hearing in what
you're saying this kind of methodical

working through this stuff, which
I think is beautiful because again,

whether explicitly or not, we all
sort of are navigating that terrain.

And I think what's interesting
is that people are seeking for

these truths that are absolute.

And I think that there's kind of
a humility that comes with the

design attitude and mentality where
it's like there's no such thing as

that and it is more of a journey.

It's about ideation.

It's about,

Aarron Walter: Yeah.

Brad Frost: about sort of separating
less like here's a truth versus here's

these things that tend to be more durable

concepts or things that that feel sturdy
versus like the I crack the code, right?

Like, I don't know.

Do you feel do you feel like this is a
code to crack like or that you can or

Aarron Walter: feel like it's a code to

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aarron Walter: I feel like it's a
quest that you never reach the end.

And I find myself I. really interested
in, uh, reshaping my, my mentality.

So I'd say, you know, in my younger
years, uh, teens, twenties, thirties,

the way that I thought about it
was sort of, uh, of, of life.

not, not really life is like a, a
big picture 'cause I don't know if I

was that introspective at that time.

But, you know, work and, and
anything I was doing is sort

of like, it's a checklist.

Like I can get there and I can learn to do
this thing and, um, I can get this done.

Uh, I can meet this person,
I can, you know, whatever.

Uh, and it's, it's, really a flawed way
of thinking, cause that's not really how.

Time and life unfolds in, in, in
my estimation, um, which is why

I recently, uh, a couple years
ago picked up the guitar again.

and I also started, uh, juujitsu a year
ago 'cause these are two disciplines

like where you can keep at it and you
can think like, Hey, I'm really good

today and I've got it figured out.

And then the next day.

You can be absolutely humbled
and just, it does not work out.

Uh, I've had that happen with
Juujitsu multiple times where I

think, Hey, I'm getting good here.

And I beat somebody who's
of a higher rank than me.

And the next day I just get clobbered by
someone who's of a lower rank than me.

And it's very humbling.

Um, so it's just more of like a
pursuit that, uh, you you just,

you never reach a a destination.

Brad Frost: yeah.

And it sounds like a real.

acceptance of that.

Aarron Walter: Yeah.

Brad Frost: Is that, is that, fair to say?

It's like there's almost like a tension
of like the pursuit of, of mastery

of, of these hobbies, of these, these
experiences, of this like thing that

you're curious and excited about, but
also a recognition that it's like, it

isn't about perfection or it isn't about
like conquering a thing, but it's more

just the, the experience of it, right?

Aarron Walter: I think that, uh, The
younger me thought that the pursuit of

mastery was like you could reach the
destination And now the older me thinks

it's a lot like Don Quixote where he's
like pursuing, this noble truth of, you

know, the, this, this honorable code and
he just, he never quite gets there and he

looks silly the more certain he becomes,

Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah,

Aarron Walter: that's the way I feel
about jiujitsu and their kind of

metaphors for, The human experience.

Brad Frost: such heart agree.

Like if we were to have this
exact conversation, like

fast forward 30 years, right?

I'm sure we'll we will
have learned some stuff.

We've had some additional experiences
that are shaped our outlooks, but

I, I have a strong suspicion that
both still be seeking, right?

Aarron Walter: I won't, I won't
be doing any jiujitsu in 30 years.

That's for sure.

I will break.

Brad Frost: just, you can feel the, you
can hear the bones snapping from here.

Aarron Walter: Maybe, maybe yoga.

Brad Frost: But hopefully guitar,
I mean, like, you know, that's,

that's, that's one of those things.

I recently watched this video of, it
was a drummer who was, I think like

102 and he's kind of at the assisted
living place and he's doing it and

Aarron Walter: That's

Brad Frost: you could just
see the neurons firing.

And when you just see that, um, I
I'm so fascinated by that stuff.

When you, when people talk about longevity
and whenever people talk about all

of this stuff, it's, it's, you see it
embodied in, uh, well, Les Paul was like

another, another person, like, just like
these older players, these older people

that have been pursuing this thing, have
been going on this journey for decades.

Aarron Walter: Yeah.

Brad Frost: But there's this, there's
this real light, there's this real

connection, there's this real, there's a
deeper thing there than like, Oh, that's

cute, this person's had this hobby for

Aarron Walter: Yeah.

Brad Frost: know what I mean?

Like, there's, there's
really something to that.

Aarron Walter: yeah, I saw, uh, Herbie
Hancock, uh, perform a couple years ago

and, uh, got to meet him after the show.

Brad Frost: Oh my god.

Aarron Walter: that was amazing.

But so for those of you who are,
are not Herbie Hancock listeners,

um, he's been at this for.

Uh, what, 75 years, three
quarters of a century.

he's in his eighties.

He was an anchor of Miles
Davis's band for a long time.

He's done major stuff.

Uh, and thought, Okay, I'm gonna
go see Herbie Hancock, sort of as

like a, I, I just want to, I just
wanna be near that creativity.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: But I'm sure I'm
not catching him at his peak.

And I think he was 82 at the
time and he was still incredible.

He was so incredible.

Uh, and, and still learning too,
like, he's playing with young people.

Uh, and that's something
I've always admired about.

Certain creative people who are constantly
staying close to youth, uh, new ideas,

constantly pursuing and learning.

Those are the folks that I really admire.

That is one thing about Miles Davis.

There's a lot about his personal life not
to admire, but his constant re-envisioning

of who he is and who he can be

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: staying close to new ideas.

He was very good at that,

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aarron Walter: that, you know, people
like Kirby Hancock, he learned from that

because at, in his day, he was, he was 20
and he was the new idea, uh, bringing new

ideas into, uh, to Miles Davis as well.

So I, I like that.

like being close to
creativity and new ideas.

I think it's contagious.

Brad Frost: I 100 percent agree, and I
think that that's like one of the real

drivers of putting this show on is, is
that again, it's, I've experienced like

a lot of people who exhibit creativity
in a lot of different realms and There's,

I feel like, only until recently that
there's, above the surface level or

like outside of like the realm of

scientific literature or
psychology or whatever, have

there been sort of a few things,

that have kind of surfaced about just
kind of the, the nature of creativity and

Aarron Walter: Hmm.

Brad Frost: of these things
like a Rick Rubin's book.

did you read that?

Like it's, it's

Aarron Walter: yeah,

Brad Frost: that's a, that's a great
example of it's just like, here's this

kind of, let's like pick at sure he
could punctuate some of the points.

using his musical experience, but
there's, there's a lot of stuff

behind it that is more shared.

And whenever you, um, Sir Ken Robinson
is another sort of huge inspiration of

mine, like the element, or it's just
like, just driving home this idea of

like, everyone has creative capacity.

So this idea of, you know, what is
everyone a designer or everyone not,

or there's, there's, there's this line.

That separates it.

And that's something that I've always
been kind of frustrated by because people

will approach me at a conference or reach
out and they're like, they will imply.

It's like, oh yeah, you're, you're
this and I couldn't ever or, or, you

know, there's this, this division.

I don't, I don't know if you've
like experienced that as well, but

it's like, that's, that's something
that I've like, I'm like, no,

no, no, we all, we all have it.

And there are lessons to learn
from Herbie Hancock and Miles Davis

and really anyone else who is.

Seeking to improve and be creative
and keep your Eyes and mind open to

to to growth and and doing something
different than you were doing before and

that seems to be that that creativity
that's in everyone is the thing that I

feel like separates people that might
be your age or my age that are feeling

Invigorated by things or, or interested
in things versus the people who feel

like they're, they're languishing
or they're, they're, they're stuck

Aarron Walter: Yeah.

Brad Frost: or they're just
like in a routine or something.

Aarron Walter: A Couple things
come to mind uh, from that.

is curiosity and the other
is uh, personal identity.

I, I think that know, the notion of
I I am or I am not a creative person.

that's a message that
we create for ourselves.

I think that humans are tremendously
Capable of reinvention and creating

new skills and exploring new territory.

Uh, if we, if we allow ourselves,
we, we do that to take that path.

You have to be curious about.

well, What would it, would it
be like if I worked on something

for the next five years?

Imagine myself in the
future in five years.

I. What would I be like?

How would I be different?

Um, I want to, I wanna do something
with fashion and and I've never.

I, I've i've never done anything like
that maybe a little like sew on a button

on a shirt in, in home ec and now you
wanna custom make jeans or uh, my wife

got a bunch of kimonos in uh in japan
uh, these vintage kimonos and she wants

to do some interesting new things with
them rethink them so you gotta build some

skills um and it's just a matter of like.

Okay, I I need to take
some sewing classes.

What are the resources out there?

Uh, and go into that curious,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: humble as well.

I think that maybe that gets a little
overused, but clearly, you're, you

know, if you've got no experience,
you you go into it with an inherent

uh, level of humility, but.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: Um, Allowing
yourself the opportunity that

you can learn a new thing.

You can, you can try new things, whatever
your job is, your educational background.

That those are great.

That's great experience
that you can build upon and.

you can start from scratch.

You could learn something that is
totally unrelated, seemingly unrelated.

I'm, I'm a big believer that one
way or another, you'll find some

connection back to disciplines.

But, um, I really like that.

I am actually, I'm taking a
mushroom foraging class online

Brad Frost: Nice.

Aarron Walter: Uh, I don't know
anything about it, but I'm curious.

And I I try to do like some
kind of a class every year.

I, I do, I do classes weekly.

You know, I mentioned guitar and, and but,
um, I also try to do some other class.

Like I did a stop the bleed, which
is like a first a type of class.

Brad Frost: Wow.

Okay.

Aarron Walter: I'm sort of curious,
like, how could I be useful in

a, in a challenging situation?

I think it's great to reinvent yourself
and build yourself into something more

than what you could have imagined.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yeah, I think that that's, that's amazing.

And you're embodying, I think what
a lot of people, uh, would aspire to

had they not already talked themselves
out of it in their brain, right?

And that that's, it's, it's a phenomenon
that I see all the time with people.

So for instance, it's like,
you know, I do front end code.

And I'm in a room full of designers, a lot
of which have not done that type of thing.

And I will just, you
know, show them CodePen

or, or they, they, they basically
just hit this wall of like, but

I couldn't possibly, or like,
I need to, to spend the week.

And I'm just like, go, go,
go, go, go, go, go, right?

Like, I think that you're right in
that the curiosity helps drive things,

but there's this, opposite end of the
spectrum or like that, the sort of

force against that is this whatever
self doubt or overthinking or whatever.

And it's something that we all experience,
obviously, but it's like the people who

are able to sort of compartmentalize
that or reduce that impact and allow

the curiosity to translate into action.

That's, I think, a really
huge, that, that's a skill.

unto itself.

Because I do think like a lot
of people, we all have inherent

curiosity, but it's like you said,
it's like the, the acting on it.

That's the differentiator right there.

And acting on it requires that,
that first step, whatever that is.

So like, just here's a little text
box, you know how to write text.

You've been doing that for nearly all
of your life, like put some words in

there and guess what pixels are cheap and
you're not going to blow up the planet

by writing it that's something that
I've been able to, to kind of, I hope,

instill in other people is this more
of a can do mentality around this stuff

where it's just like, again, these things
are not reserved for people like us.

there's obviously a
lot of factors at play.

There's a lot of like, you know,
your situation, where, where your

front, like, your environment, your,
all of those things like matter.

And, and it's, it's important to recognize
that there is this really innate sense

of, yeah, we all have creativity.

We all have curiosity.

We all have these abilities

Aarron Walter: Mm-hmm.

Brad Frost: to, to imagine.

And it just is like, how do
you Get people to to take those

steps to actually move forward

Aarron Walter: sometimes it's just
seeing it like seeing that someone else

is doing it, seeing that it's possible.

I think another thing that holds people
back is they think, order for me to

develop that skill or, um, learn something
new, uh, it's, gonna be too hard because

I'll be doing it on my own, but there's
so many great resources out there.

If you think about the world as a
resource, whether you wanna learn

to code, you wanna learn to make
custom jeans, you wanna, learn to

build a a home using timber framing
like there are resources out there.

Uh, if you know nothing, if
you know less than nothing,

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: can probably find someone
who's teaching a class who does sort of

like a camp, online, uh, youtube videos,

Brad Frost: that like YouTube

Aarron Walter: the

Brad Frost: a

Aarron Walter: above.

Brad Frost: yeah YouTube is a miracle
like YouTube is an absolute miracle like

setting aside Whatever, radicalization
in its algorithms and all of that stuff.

It's like the ability, and we've
been doing, we do it all the time

with, with our daughter, where she'll
ask that question, and that kind

of has become our, like, default.

It's just like, oh, let's,
Let's just go watch a video

of somebody doing that, right?

Uh, we're drinking almond milk in the
morning in our, in our, uh, cereal.

Well, let's watch a video on how
almond milk is made or whatever.

And it's like, it's, it's just the fact
that it's around and it's, and it's in

this, there's something about the format,
I think, of video too, that like kind of.

Brings it down to earth in a way that
a lot you could you know, you could

read books You could like study it
you could do that, but that kind of

Aarron Walter: both.

That's,

Brad Frost: yeah

Aarron Walter: an unlock for
me is I read a lot of books and

I'm reading books on my own.

Like Les Mis, it's huge.

And people, people call it the brick.

I I kind of want to understand
it, like understand what's

the, what's the backstory.

So I use things like YouTube to give me
a background on the French revolution.

Or to find someone who's doing like a a
book group on this and they go through it

and and kind of give you some analysis.

I use chat, GPTI talk to chat GPT
while I'm reading a book and say,

you know, give me a background
of what happened in the French

Revolution in the 1820s to the 1830s.

Uh, and, and you just get all this
stuff that gives you the context

you need to really understand it.

In a way that even if I was in
a college class, I I probably

would not have gotten that level

Brad Frost: no, that's right.

Aarron Walter: And it's just a matter of
like about the resources that are at your

fingertips to, learn what you wanna learn.

And, you know, to go back to your original
question, what gets you up in the morning?

It's learning.

It's just, man, I love
learning new things.

And I just like the more that I learn, the
more I see the cross connection between

All all the different topics, the skills,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: the, you
know, human experience.

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: and that gives me
a fuller understanding of my life

Brad Frost: that's as beautiful and
I think what's also worth pointing

out about it is that that Your
unique experience, right, like

you are the only Aaron Walter who,

Aarron Walter: that we know of.

Brad Frost: but, but who, who hosts
these specific podcasts about these

specific things and have had these
specific conversations and have

also read these specific books.

And I think that that's the thing
that's another thing that I encounter

and I'm sure you've encountered
this as well, where people go,

Oh, well, I couldn't possibly.

Blog about this or share about this
or write about this or pursue this

because here's this other person Who's
done this and it's like no, no, you

don't understand You're coming at this
with your unique perspective, like

literally one of a kind, like Fred
Rogers is like Pittsburgh superhero.

Right?

And it's like, whenever
it's like, you are special.

Like, there's only one of you.

It's like, man, I have internalized that.

And it's like, He's right,
he's absolutely right.

There's only one person who've walked,
and read, and absorbed, and have watched

these specific videos, and whatever,
and that shapes your specific human

experience, but that also shapes you.

allows you and you do a great job at
this at at sort of being able to share

that experience outward to the benefit
of others and I think that that's

like that's so cool because like you
could just be doing it and keeping it

all to yourself but there's something
really magical in that understanding

that like your unique human experience
can have an impact on others.

And it has this, this exponential
effect, which is the more people that are

doing that learning, sharing, growing,
helping, it's this upward spiral that

you don't get if you're just kind of
Again, you could just be heading a

book and, and, and, and stay there.

And that's, and not saying that
that's like wrong, but there's this,

there's this extra dimension that
I feel like you've lived for a long

time, which is this like really.

Deep understanding that by way of sharing
what you're learning, by way of, of

taking these things in, but then kind
of packaging them up for others to, to

hold them up for others to, to pick at.

Selfishly, I'm sure it helps
you in your understanding of Oh,

Aarron Walter: I'm gonna share
with you some wisdom that I learned

from, uh, this guy, Dan Pink, who's
written a bunch of great books.

He used to write, uh,
speeches for Al Gore.

Uh, he wrote a great book about
regret, the power of regret.

And I asked him, why
did you write this book?

And he said, be honest,
all research is me search.

Brad Frost: yeah.

Aarron Walter: uh, I find that.

You know, the design, better podcast and
reconsidering podcasts, they're different

topics, but there is some commonality.

I am curious about these topics
and I am selfishly trying to teach

myself learn from other people.

And by turning that into a podcast
and kind of a. Media platform.

It gives me the structure and the
accountability to continue to learn.

So, uh, yeah, like it's, it is good for
everyone and I do want to share, but.

You know, I, I come to it
with selfish intentions.

I, I

just wanna, I

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: to all the people and
learn as much as I can from them.

Brad Frost: That's beautiful.

But like, but that's the,
that's the thing though.

It's like, it's, this
isn't a zero sum game.

These things are not mutually exclusive.

And I think that that's like, that's
one of the, the biggest lessons I feel

like I've learned over the years has
been that I just, how few things are

Zero sum or it's either this or that,
and that there's all of these things

that you can design to be these win win
situations or win win win win win win

win win situations where it's like, it
really Once you realize that, that, oh

yeah, I could be like immensely selfish
and, and do this, but at the same time

I'm going to structure it in a way that
everybody else is going to be able to sort

of catch the wake of that selfishness.

And I'm going to put it out there
and that's going to, yes, help you

individually grow, but it's also
going to sort of start people's own

curiosity and whatever it's again,
it's that, it's that upward spiral.

And I think that that's, It's
amazing because you're able to

realize that there's no psychological
disconnect because we tend to think

of selfishness as a, an attribute
to, you know, avoid, we tend to think

of it as this negative thing, right?

But once you realize you're like, well,
of course, you're, you're taking care

of yourself and you're living your
own human experience, and that's it.

But to not like focus there
at the expense of others.

And that's like, I think sort of something
that I really want to pick at on this,

on this podcast, because it's like this
phenomenon that we're talking about.

It was like, there's, there's the, the
self growth, there's a self understanding,

the self awareness, the, the, all of
that stuff that we've been talking about.

But then there's also
this responsibility to.

The people in our lives are these
sort of concentric circles, right?

There's, there's you,
there's your nuclear family.

There's, there's your,
your local community.

There's, you know, the design community.

And so you, you kind of like, we have
these responsibilities to the people in

our lives are the communities we operate
in the environments we operating in and

the world at large, and there tends to be.

And I don't know if you've experienced
this and I'd like love to get your,

your take on it, but it's just
like wrestling with that balance

of I'm taking care of myself.

I am, yeah, my head's in a book and I'm,
I'm thoroughly enjoying this endeavor.

when bombs are falling, or when, when,
you know, the state of the world is,

is in this extremely unhealthy place.

And so it's sort of like, there's
something there that what we were just

talking about, about that kind of,
there's the self, there's others, and

there's sure these like selfish things.

That also kind of have like a
positive impact on others if

you, if you, if you share them.

Right.

I, I don't know.

Like I covered a lot of things there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Aarron Walter: I have a, I, I have
a a way that I think about this.

These are, um, called super activities.

So there are activities that you
can do that might you, uh, mentally,

spiritually I. and, you know,
nourish your relationships and

there are activities that can do
more than one thing simultaneously.

Um, I'll give you a couple examples.

So I started Juujitsu Because my youngest
son dropped out and we had a contract.

And so I thought, okay, gonna go
ahead and take over that contract and

get my older son who is 14 and at a
point in his life where he has, he's

got a lot of, uh, energy that needs
to be channeled in a positive way.

Brad Frost: right?

Aarron Walter: He's got a

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm

Aarron Walter: testosterone.

And so I want to, I wanna make sure that
he's building skills and also learning.

and, there's some danger to that.

And that's part of growing up is being
able to operate within a more nuanced set

of, uh, constraints And so we, we fight
each other on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Brad Frost: Amazing.

Aarron Walter: uh, so he's beating me
up and I'm beating him up and we're

learning all kinds of choke holds
and, uh, boxing and stuff like that.

And it's super fun.

It's super fun together 'cause it is
done safely, but we learn a skill.

So we're nourishing our, our intellect.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: uh, I I, when you have
a teenager, you rarely get to hug them.

I get to hug him pretty
regularly in a very tight way

when we're fighting.

Um.

and, and we get to spend this
time together and have this

kind of shared experience.

That's a super activity.

I, I

Brad Frost: beautiful.

Aarron Walter: boxes.

I,

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

Aarron Walter: I feel like there's also
a spiritual component to that as well.

Uh, for a while I gave my wife
such a hard time because she goes

to this gym that is like a, it's
kinda like an old person's gym.

That's part of like a
hospital rehabilitation thing

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: and it's out of the way.

So she's gotta drive all the way
there, take her classes, you know,

work out and then drive home.

So it kind of occupies the entire morning.

Brad Frost: Silence.

Silence.

Aarron Walter: that she
brings to these classes.

They give each other gifts that, you

Brad Frost: Silence.

Silence.

Aarron Walter: it's good

Brad Frost: Um, Silence.

Silence.

Silence.

Aarron Walter: together.

Um,

Brad Frost: Silence.

Aarron Walter: do a lot of cooking
for my mother-in-law who's wrestled

with some illness and that makes
her feel better and be healthier.

and when I can be of
service, that is good for me.

I, That's like, it's a gift for me that
I get to do that for somebody else.

I tell my, I tell my kids all the
time, you know, a good man puts more

value into the world than he extracts.

And that doesn't have to be gendered.

It's a good person puts

Brad Frost: Sure, yeah,

Aarron Walter: than they extract.

and thinking about that, think can,
can be a good framework for life.

What can I do?

That's providing value for others.

I'm gonna get value out of that as well.

When

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: service mindset.

Brad Frost: And that's just it.

It's like, that's that last part
is the thing that like, it seems

obvious and, and experientially it
is obvious as like, oh yeah, I see

you smile and I'm smiling right back.

And there's a lot of, you know, science
to back that up, but yet at the same

time, this, this kind of prevalent.

Attitude, at least in America, for
sure, is this like, this has to be

this competition or this has to be at
at the expense of something else and

like, just fundamentally reject that
but but coming back to what you're

saying, I think that you brought up some
like really important things in here.

So you're talking about, I love
this idea of super activities.

I couldn't help but think the
way that Society is structured.

We're, we're kind of in this, um,
in the phase of life where, you

know, our daughter's almost seven.

So it's like she's starting
to get into activities.

A lot of the people around us are
a little further along that road.

And you just see what this kind of, um,
it's, it's kind of like a relentless.

But, like, it's, it's the opposite
of what you're talking about

with these super activities.

It's like, it's this, like, relentless,
one dimensional things, where it's

just, like, minivan prison, right?

Like, it's, like, on my road, like, I, I
watch The one family and you know, they're

they're committed to it and but and
frankly, they have four kids So that but

they're just constantly I'm sure that they
you know, they would have some version

of like how this is a super activity for
them but a lot I see a lot of the people

in my life family members and so on
really like There's a lot of misery there

because it's not these activities, even
though they technically like could have

the potential to be these super activity.

They are, they're like pursued, and
almost like that the macro level design

of the thing just seems to be just
so narrowly focused, and it's so this

compartmentalization of a lot of the
different facets of life and society,

the really frustrating and whenever.

All you need to do is just like, whatever,
read any book or look at any documentary

or anything about like healthy societies.

And they're the ones that are able
to blend, you know, the Tai Chi's of

the world where it's, yeah, you go
to the park and you're out in nature

and you're with your peers and you're
doing these healthy activities.

It's like, these are no brainers,

Aarron Walter: Mm-hmm.

Brad Frost: whatever reason,
the phenomenon I see.

In my little world, at least, is,

here's this chunked out, segmented
things that are being like, this

is, this is this, and this is for
this person only, and this is only

doing these things, or attacking
these dimensions of life, whether

it's physilect, you know, whatever.

And it's like, it's, we're
selling ourselves short!

Right?

Like, these things You don't
even need to really do much to

change the structure of them.

It's, it's more an attitude
than it is anything else.

I, I love that.

What, what you said about you and your
son and how you're You really, you

have this awareness of the multifaceted
things that you get out of this shared

activity together, which is beautiful.

And then I contrast that with the people
that I see running in the minivans

that just seem absolutely miserable.

And I'm sure that there's, there's,
there's some truth there and

it's not an all or nothing thing.

But like open yourself up to just the
gift that is this like time together

and whatever, you know, anyways.

Aarron Walter: I, I think we're, you
know, we're, we're super social animals

and, I, just think, I think it's so
amazing how humans will just fall in line.

even, you know, self-aware people
just kind of fall in line to

the social constructs of, is
what other people are doing.

You know, if I'm an 8-year-old in
school and I see that my friends

are all doing travel soccer and you
know, I want to go be part of that.

I, I can't blame an
8-year-old kid for that.

They want to go do it.

but a parent has to consent and
consider what is the, the cost of this.

I think that there's just expanding
out from the micro universe of, you

know, parents with young children.

Um, there's so much of our culture,
our workforce, our economy, our

life, that is kind of the matrix
of I, never considered that.

Life could operate in a different way,
in a way that bends more towards my

interests, my needs, uh, my, my goals

Brad Frost: That's.

Aarron Walter: those who are kind
of curious about it could say,

okay, what's the cost benefit
analysis here on if my kid.

My eighth grader does travel volleyball

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: and they're gonna
be, we're gonna be on the road.

We're gonna have to pay for
flights in some circumstances,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Aarron Walter: we're
gonna be gone all weekend.

The younger siblings, other siblings,
what's the cost that is paid for

Brad Frost: hmm.

Aarron Walter: and relationship there.

The cost, you know, for a,
a kid who's doing the same

movement over and over again.

My, My nieces have had multiple
surgeries from that stuff.

because they just, you know,
do it over and over again.

They

Brad Frost: Sure.

Aarron Walter: quickly, know, somebody
like Jerry Rice, who's a hall of

fame, wide receiver for San Francisco
49 ERs didn't play football until

he was a sophomore in high school.

so like the specialization so
early, it, it has a lot of costs.

think the lesson I take from
it is, you make decisions that.

Bends your, your, your time
and your energy investment

towards the payoff that you want

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: of the, the, the thing
that you think you're supposed to do,

Brad Frost: I'd really like to use it.

Since you just said pay off an investment,
uh, this, this brings, uh, like, I,

I, I definitely wanted to like, get
here in our conversation, but I think

that, like, one of the things with
all of this, as well as, yeah, just

whatever kids activities in general,
but also like what we do with our time.

And life energy is like
there's money, right?

And so, like, I think, and even
back to what we were sort of

talking about, it's like, oh, yeah.

Curiosity or pursuing these hobbies,
it's just the backdrop to all of that.

Is, is money, we,

Aarron Walter: the, the, the opportunity,
the decision making, if you are

stuck on a treadmill where you've,
you've got to just continue to make

a certain amount of money, none of
that curiosity talk decision making.

Really, like,

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aarron Walter: or makes sense.

Brad Frost: yeah, and, and, and that's,
and, and that seems to be it, and,

and it's a phenomenon that I've, I've
experienced wherever people are like, oh,

you're like doing these, like, Kind of
weird things and I'm not entirely sure

how you actually earn money or whatever
But like but I guess what I'd love to to

get at here and and this is so we've had
conversations in the past So we're both.

Um aware and and practitioners of of
this notion called fire which is called

financial independence retire early And
there's kind of a whole ethos around it.

There's a whole bunch
of literature around it.

There's a whole bunch of podcasts.

There's a whole bunch of books.

There's a whole bunch
of like a lot of things.

And I think I'm really excited to
talk to you about your experience of

it because kind of being outside of
that apparatus, which kind of, you

know, just like how design designers
have a culture and we have like our

little like ecosystem or bubble.

I feel like you're kind of.

Well, we're both kind of outside of
that realm, but at the same time, I

feel like I've been pursuing this in our
sort of various stages of our journey.

Around relationship with money, how
we see it and, and how that's maybe

unlocked some of this, this kind of
higher level self actualization that

you've been able to pursue in large
part because you've, you've positioned

things properly with respect to money.

So, Aaron, what are your thoughts on money

Aarron Walter: I think of money as a tool.

ideally, I would, I want money to buy
freedom and joy, opportunities for growth.

I am a realist, you know, I, I grew up,
uh, in a family where we were always sort

of to trying to get by, um, wasn't always
easy and there were some times where it

was a little, little dodgy there, but in
the grand scheme of things, I, you know,

I'd say I'm a very fortunate person and
I've been super lucky in my life of being

in the right place at the right time,
born at the dawn of computers and kind

of born into an economy that was gonna
support my and interests and so forth.

But, I will say that if we can
be intentional and realist about

money what things are bring value.

to our life and, I value is something
like we could deconstruct that word,

but does it, create, uh, one of those
things I mentioned, does it create an

opportunity to learn, you know, is that
a class or is that, uh, weeks off so you

could just go practice sewing or, um,
something like that, we think about money

that way versus, uh, our, our wants, our
momentary wants, I want a cup of coffee.

I want to go out to dinner cause I don't
feel like making dinner tonight, man.

That's me.

I, I, I am that person as well, But
if you can of automate that and think

about yourself 30 years down the
road, uh, and start investing early.

Man, that is huge.

If you can start investing
in your early twenties.

Even a small amount like you're putting
50 bucks into, uh, you know, you got a

Schwab account and you get, uh, like a
total stock market index fund that you're

just putting 50 bucks in here or there.

When someone gives you a Christmas
gift, a birthday gift of some

money, that's where it goes.

And you let that grow.

It compounds and compound interest
as Ben Franklin has said is one

of the most, uh, amazing, uh,
scientific phenomenon on the planet.

Uh, it, it is, it's really cool 'cause
it grows and what you want to shift

from is trading your time for money
and having your money make money for

you it's really kind of like a mind.

messes with your mind to think that
way, that, if you've invested, well, you

could be on vacation, spent a bunch of
money on a really nice vacation and you

could have made more than the cost of
your vacation while you're vacationing

because the stock market went up and, you
know, you, you had some success there.

you don't have to be super
smart, super, um, nerdy about it.

You can, there's a ton
of great books out there.

and, and maybe we could talk about
some of those books that people could

read and put those in show notes.

But,

Brad Frost: Mm hmm.

Yeah.

Aarron Walter: you need
to be transferring that.

Out into some total stock market index.

So you don't have a large chunk of
your personal wealth in a single place.

Cause if that company starts to
lose value, you're in trouble.

You're in, you're in big trouble.

Getting good at money is
an essential skill at life.

Uh, you don't have to be a hedge
fund manager, but you do have

to know how to invest and how to
systematically transition from

trading your time for money.

Because there's gonna come a time
in your life where you don't want

to do that, someone wants you to
do something you don't want to do.

And you want to have enough fu money.

That is, I want you to do this thing
that you really goes against your, your

morals, your values, your interests.

And you wanna be able to
say Fu I'm not gonna do it.

I want to go over

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: I wanna take six months.

Even it's like, takes six
months to find a new job.

That's fu money.

That's not like an insane amount of
money, but it is fu money that gives

you the time and space to reconsider.

that is what everybody
should and can build.

if they're smart about this.

Brad Frost: no, that's, that's great.

There's, I feel like there's so much
great advice locked up into that.

coming back to, I think that
I really like how you led it.

Money is a tool, and that tool
can be pointed at things and

utilized to accomplish things.

I think that that, that for
me really sort of shifted.

My relationship with money is like once
I started to to realize that because

up until That was was kind of presented
to me it was You know, well, I'm, I'm

working, I, I know I, I want to make as
much money as possible because like you,

it's like I, I grew up, you know, in, in
a certain house with, you know, punctuated

by layoffs and all sorts of stuff.

So there's, there's the, the scarcity
mindset that kind of comes with that.

And so it's just like, well, obviously
I'm going to go and I'm going to try

to make as much as I can without giving
it too much like extra thought around

all like well What's all this for?

Like what why exactly am I doing this?

I know it's a good idea

Aarron Walter: oh, I think that's,
that's a great question, a great

question, right, right there.

What's money for?

What is

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: work is for generating
money, but work is also for other things.

It's for learning.

It's for connection.

It's for feeling useful.

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aarron Walter: a super activity.

It

Brad Frost: yeah

Aarron Walter: be.

And what is money for?

Uh, it's for protection.

it is for opportunity it's for growth.

it is for a few things, but, another
thing that people get very confused by is.

having outward signs of wealth uh,
you know, consumption, consumption

is wealth, consumption is not wealth.

you know, you hear people say this, this
phrase, like how can they afford it?

Chances are they can't afford it.

You

Brad Frost: Very true.

Aarron Walter: credit.

They're paying a mortgage.

They're paying a note.

They're paying, you know, some,
some bill on a regular basis.

And they are consuming.

You don't want consumption
to drive your life.

You want to have a solid foundation.

Um, and when you do have that solid
foundation and you've got enough FU money

and you've got runway and you're clear
on your values and you've got a healthy

relationship to money and how you use it

Brad Frost: Yeah

Aarron Walter: achieving that
satisfaction and that safety in your life.

Hey, and you want to
consume and buy a thing.

okay.

But also be aware of, like,
what things bring you joy.

So you and me, I think we'd probably
agree, like, buying a good instrument,

it brings me joy, 'cause it's a
thing that brings me growth, and

I'll have it throughout my entire
life, and I'll give it to my kids.

Brad Frost: Yeah

Aarron Walter: a good spend.

For me, like, a car I think of it
more as like taking it from point

A to point B. If you buy something
brand new, it loses value right away.

A car to me, just, I feel, I feel bad.

Like I'm losing money on that thing.

And I've tried buying something
that felt really cool.

and it just stressed me out.

I'd rather have a cheap
pickup that I can do stuff.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: dings it, I'm
like, yeah, it's all right.

Brad Frost: Yep.

And I

to, to reflect on that.

And you, you said it earlier.

It's like the, the, you
know, what are your values?

And it's like, that needs to come first.

Because a lot of times it's, again,
it's just that kind of blind, just

kind of myopic or shallow mode
of, well, I got to earn money.

And without a value system to,
to really sort of undergird that

endeavor, you can find yourself in
weird territory real quick, right?

And, and that, and that also translates
to, yeah, you just, here's the Joneses,

and you're, you're buying the same things
because you see everybody else doing that.

And I feel like having that solid sense
of self, a solid value system, then.

Affords the idea of in coupling that
value system with money as a tool, you

then have this really nice equation
of being able to use money to pursue

things that, you know, uh, embody
and, and advance your, your values.

Aarron Walter: And

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: a simple way to do this
is, um, if you can articulate your values,

um, maybe your values are around, and
learning and growth, for example, create

a budget those are your budget buckets.

So you align your money to
your values, uh, in that way.

So when you say like, I've got
150 this month for learning, got

a hundred dollars for adventure.

Or we're gonna start saving monthly
for one big adventure every year.

And that's gonna give us
growth learning and family time

or a couple time, whatever.

Um, that's a great way to do it
where you can start to articulate it.

And then you've got the stuff that's
like life's operating system of, I

gotta pay for my cell phone bill.

I've gotta pay for
electricity, et cetera, but

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: kind of a different
type of bucket than This growth stuff.

Brad Frost: I. Right.

Right.

Aarron Walter: bring me joy or
get me closer to my life's goals?

Probably not.

Brad Frost: I love that.

It's like you're making the value
system explicit and it's that becomes

like any good sort of design endeavor.

It's like, here's this
like kind of measurable.

It's tangible.

You could see it.

You could work towards it.

You could you could sort of
evaluate how you're doing, getting,

are we close or are we far away?

It gives you kind of a lens into it.

That's, that's great.

Aarron Walter: it can

Brad Frost: yeah, go

Aarron Walter: you freedom too there,
uh, in ways that we might not expect.

I, at one point was scrutinizing
my spending on audio books.

I really, like, I just love audio books.

I was like, man, I'm spending
this subscription over here.

I have two subscriptions for audiobooks I
was going through so many and I couldn't

get 'em all at the library so and I
thought well this is actually a good

way to spend my money because it aligns
with my values so I'm okay with that

Brad Frost: ahead.

Beautiful.

Aarron Walter: money over here on
clothing or I'll spend less money

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: I don't know.

Restaurants.

Brad Frost: yeah,

Aarron Walter: you know, one of those
things that can get some value outta that.

That's great.

And that can align to your value
system to a certain degree.

But it is one of those things that it's an
expense that, it doesn't pay back a ton.

Brad Frost: so yesterday I, um, met
with these people, never met before,

but, uh, connected and played music
with them, which was really fun.

They have a band and, I went into this
house in, in Pittsburgh, which is like

a total Pittsburgh house, but he, he's a
bit younger, really kinetic guy, raccoons

living in the attic water water damage
like throughout the practice space and

stuff, but it was great like just just
real stuff a guy clearly loves music and

We, we jammed for a while and then we kind
of went in to a living room to listen to

a record and he had this like big record
collection and he was talking about

how he went to a show the prior night
at this, this cool space that is like

kind of part venue, part record store.

It's like, man, he's like, I, it's
like, I spent 60 on these records.

but then for the next like half hour,
I just watched this guy as he was

lighting up going through the album
art and reading the liner notes and

connecting the dots of this drummer
played on this and also played over

here on this other record that he had.

And, but he, he kind of was repeating
this, Oh God, this was like 60 bucks.

And, you know, dudes living in
a, in a place where, you know, 60

bucks could be spent, you know,
repairing the roof or whatever.

But at the same time, I'm like, Dude,
that seems like money very well spent.

Like you, you seem to This, this
gives you a lot of life, right?

Like this is not just like a
conspicuous consumption and sure.

Like there's a, there's a sweet
spot or there's a balance.

So you want to be responsible with
it, but it's like material pursuit

is, is connecting with what I saw
pretty clearly is like this core.

value that he has, which
is this deep love of music.

So it's like, yeah, that
seems like money well spent.

It seems like money well spent.

Well,

Aarron Walter: doesn't destroy
the record collection or

Brad Frost: right.

Aarron Walter: the raccoons
eat the records, then you not

Brad Frost: This is true.

This is true.

Yeah.

Aarron Walter: and.

fix the roof.

Brad Frost: maybe like
pulling all of this together.

Right.

It's like, we've covered like, There,
there's curiosity, there's pursuit,

there's, there's creativity, there's,
there's being sort of intentional

and tweaking knobs and, and pursuing
these, these super activities that

allow you to get fulfillment out
of multiple dimensions out of life.

And like that all needs
to be paid for, right?

And having really sort
of prioritizing that,

that relationship with money, setting
up some solid foundations don't require,

like you said, like you don't have to
become a hedge fund manager, like a

lot of times it's just like kind of
like working with a good professional.

Get it, get things set up, get some
clarity, get your head around, like

what your actual operating expenses are.

That for me was like
a huge freeing moment.

Like you were saying,
there's the cell phone bill.

There's the utility bills.

Like, do you actually know what
you're like general monthly?

Expenditures are and that gives you a good
idea of like how much you need to earn

in order to support that lifestyle and
it took me a long time to arrive at that.

It was like a multi year process
of sort of chipping away at it.

But once I had it, then
I could start going.

Okay.

I know that life costs this much money
every year, which means that that's

how much, that's how hard I need to
work every year in order to live life.

And that was tremendously freeing.

It got me out of that, like, I just
need to go, I need to earn as much

as possible, and I need to do all
these things, and I'm sacrificing my

well being, other aspects of my life.

Because I, I just feel that, born
from that scarcity mindset of,

of just how I was raised, and I
think a lot of people are in that

position, not having that clarity.

Being able to articulate this stuff,
getting your hands around it is

such an important thing because it
allows you to, to, to, yeah, yeah.

And then from there, then you
could start being deliberate.

Like you said, like, it's like
those, those buckets and stuff.

It's like a, a great, I think that
that's like a fantastic exercise.

And I think like, like the, the first
step in the journey is a lot of times

just like kind of, yeah, rounding.

rounding things up and just getting
your heads around things and there's

obviously kind of just that exercise in
general often brings to life It's like

oh, yeah, here's these weird subscriptions
or these things that keep popping up

that I could probably just nuke and
and Not miss him at all or whatever.

So, so there's kind of like immediate
value that comes from it, but

there's like that exercise is the
first step in this sort of broader.

Aarron Walter: yeah, I think there's
a theme in each of the topics we've

covered here, which is the examined
life, the idea of looking at one's

life carefully, every aspect it.

Not taking it for granted, asking
questions like what does it cost to

live the way that I, I live or I want
to live and are there compromises

or ways I can turn the dials here?

Um, how shall I live?

What are my values?

What are, what are things
are most important?

And then how can I integrate that into?

My budget, my day-to-day
decisions, my long-term thinking,

um, what does it mean to live?

What, what does it mean to be a human
and what is the human experience?

And how do I think about my life,
uh, on a greater continuum other

than just today or this year or these
years that I've been on this planet?

all these are different stages of.

curious, discovering new things,
and, um, understanding how all this

stuff fits together, 'cause it does.

Brad Frost: yeah, I love it.

I love it.

You brought up something right
there as you're recapping it, that

I think is a really important thing.

That is, that is one of the other
things that I wanted to talk to you

about because I think that it was.

It was through you that I first
heard the terms seasons of life,

Aarron Walter: Yeah,

Brad Frost: and I don't know where that
came from, but I internalized that in

my own life, and as I've kind of like
experienced some pretty dramatic chapters

or seasons of my life, everything you
just said, kind of recapping that, it's

so important to say, Hey, This, all of
those things, all of those questions

need to be re evaluated, all the time.

All the time, because your priorities
change on the daily, but certainly

like year over year, certainly as
like big milestones happen, or like,

you know, you have a kid, you lose a
parent, you lose a job, you, whatever,

it's like, all of those scenes.

Right?

Require that, that revisiting
of all of these things and

that's the journey, right?

Like that's the journey that we're
all on and it's kind of coming back

to that like Can we arrive at these?

Truths or answers to these questions the
answer is no because time marches on the

terrain shifts from underneath us And
our time, our priorities, our values,

how we spend our money, et cetera, et
cetera, I'll need to change with that and.

Aarron Walter: the

Brad Frost: And it's,

Aarron Walter: us.

Brad Frost: a hundred percent.

So, so it's like, it's like
all of those things that we've

talked about are, are important.

And then there's this other axis
that is time, which, which says like

compartmentalize all of that and, and
plot it along the, the, the time axis.

Aarron Walter: Yeah, humans are
not very good at time continuity.

You sort of see life right now and
think, this is the way it's always been.

actually it was different because,
you know, I was different and

the circumstances were different
10 years, ago, 20 years ago,

a hundred years ago, how.

People lived.

It's very different.

There's, there's a different
continuity, but seasons of life to be

able to think forward and backwards
in your life, um, is really great.

And, and I, there's an exercise we can do
where we can look back and say, what was

the theme of these decades of my life?

Is there a theme of what kind of
transformations I went through?

What kinds of things I learned,
what things I struggled with?

Um, and then how did that change?

From decade to decade and then
as you approach a new decade to

look forward and say, here's what
I want this decade to be about.

This is what I wanna focus on.

But, uh, there's there's broader,
you know, seasons are multiple

decades where, you know, there's
a pa passage of your life where

you're in the building of skills.

of foundations like maybe you know you're,
you're you're getting a house you're uh,

finding your, your partner you're maybe
building a family and you're building

a career and trying to build that nest
egg this this is all like foundational

stuff and then there's this season where.

Your kids start to grow up and
be a little bit more autonomous

and they're, this, maybe you're
thinking about things differently.

Maybe you're thinking about what
do I really need at this point?

What does it mean?

What's my relationship with work?

Is that different?

Do I work less?

Do I work?

uh, You know, in a totally different
career, it's a very typical thing.

It's, uh, common for in the United
States for adults to experience three

distinct passages of their career.

It is normal to depart one
thing and go somewhere else.

And you can do that.

That's okay.

That's, that's perfectly fine to do.

thinking about these seasons, uh.

it relates to your money, the foundations
of your life, uh, your career, uh,

your interests and your values.

Um, if we can expand
our perspective beyond

today,

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: can, we
can live a better life.

Brad Frost: but but to bring it to bring
that perspective into the present and

to cultivate presence like that, I think
that that's everything you just said is

true and but to do that to point to the
present moment where you're in your car

With your 14 year old headed to jiu jitsu
and you're able to acknowledge That like

this is a gift because one day he won't
be in the car with me because he'll be it

Aarron Walter: a half years.

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: and a half years.

So the

Brad Frost: right.

Aarron Walter: about what trips
we want to go on, what skills

I want for him to build because

Brad Frost: Yeah

Aarron Walter: the day
when he leaves the house.

Brad Frost: Mm hmm.

Aarron Walter: own.

And what does he need?

What has to be in his bag of skills

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: uh, an autonomous human
being who's safe and, you know, can,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: successful.

I've gotta consciously invest
and support my children right now

because I gotta plan for that day.

Brad Frost: but all all the while I
think it's like the so yes to all of

that, but then there's like also like
a I don't know if you experienced that

phenomenon where like, And this is,
you know, where people get anxiety from

is like worry for like the future or
whatever It's like if you do that too much

you lose You lose the presence, right?

And, and, to be able to do that, that's,
that's just good planning, that's good,

like, whatever, you're, you're, you're
sort of building this stuff, but, like,

to really recognize that these moments
we have are finite, our lives are finite,

Aarron Walter: That's right.

Brad Frost: of life, these, the, the time
with the people in our life is all finite.

If you're able to translate that into
presence and gratitude, then there it

is, like to really realize that that
it's like, this is a special moment.

It's not going to happen again.

You know, hopefully we have lots and
lots of moments with, you know, our, you

know, kids and the people in our lives,
but like, know that that finite moment.

is, is

like, just be present for it.

And, and I think that like what everything
that we've talked about, I think are,

are sort of can be then kind of funneled
into this just very deliberate exercise.

That is just like kind of showing up and
being present and having, having a real

sense of understanding that of like what
this all is, which is like, oh, yeah,

we're here, we're together and we know
that that this is a good thing and what

a gift it is that we're able to spend
this time together, have these kinds of

conversations, do these kinds of things.

And not be too infatuated with, with
what happened before, what's to come,

to consider all of that, and, and point
it, point both of those things, right,

the past and the future, like, into the
present moment, and, and to, you kind

of supercharge it, like, that's, that's
how I see it, at least, um, people have

said it a lot smarter than I just did,
but it's like, there, there is a way

to just, like, kind of cultivate the
presence and the gratitude Based on all

of these other, there's all these like,
just the, everything you're describing,

like, the, the systems and just like
our models and, and value systems and

like all of that sort of like deliberate
work provides this foundation for you

to ultimately like, Live in the moment
and be present and be grateful for

this like awareness you have that that
it's like, oh, yeah Like here's my life

and here's where I'm at and here's the
people in it and just be able to enjoy it

Aarron Walter: When you can think
forward and see how life's probably

gonna change pretty Just a few years,
I. uh, you know, down the road.

It definitely brings you into the present

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Aarron Walter: and helps you
like clarify what's important.

Brad Frost: yeah.

Yeah.

Aarron Walter: will do that.

But I think that, you know, there's
other things in life, whether

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Aarron Walter: or not, that
you, you can get that as well.

Brad Frost: Yeah, but it but it just
it requires that that introspection and

I think that that that might be like
a You know, maybe a good like parting

note for everybody is, is just like,
it's like, what, what are those things?

Like, what are, what are your kind
of bedrock kind of core values?

And like, how are you thinking about,
you know, your life as you live

it and are intending to live it?

And how could you, you kind of use that
to guide your, your day to day life

while building towards something that.

Feels good that you could fast
forward a couple of decades and go.

Yeah, I'm glad I glad I lived my life
like that versus Versus the alternative.

Yeah

Aarron Walter: it's hard to be a human.

We're, we're all

Brad Frost: It is

Aarron Walter: something

Brad Frost: it is but but it but I
feel like uh feel like we cracked

the code here in this conversation.

This is good We did it.

We're all done

Aarron Walter: at the
we cracked it, but we at

Brad Frost: But, but it's like,
I think it's like, yeah, the

code isn't meant to be cracked.

Right.

I think that, I think that, that,
that that's the cracking of the

code is, is understanding that
it's, it's not, not crackable.

Thank you so much for, for taking the
time to, to talk about this, this is like.

This is like a dream come true for me.

So thank you very much for having this.

This is like, these are exactly the
kinds of conversations I think need

to be happening and often aren't.

So, so I really appreciate
you, uh, you doing that.

couple things before we go.

where could people find you and
what, what do you want to sort

of point people towards that,
that's exciting and good for you?

Aarron Walter: well, my podcasts are
the things that are kind of the center

of my universe these days, so design
better podcast.com And reconsidering.org

reconsidering explores, how to build a
life while making a living and kind of

what, what the good life looks like.

Um, so that seems very adjacent
to our conversation today.

Design better is about the creative
process and, um, finding inspiration,

finding out how to be a, a better
designer, uh, and a creative thinker.

So places to learn more about me.

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

And then the last thing is, uh,
what is, uh, some music that you

want more people to know about?

Aarron Walter: I am a big fan of
Kamasi Washington, and we had him as

a guest on Design Better recently.

uh, I love his album, The
Epic, which came out in 2017.

But, uh, he has a new one.

Kamasi Washington's new album is called
Fearless Movement and it is great.

So if you're not familiar with
him, he, uh, He plays saxophone.

He plays lots of different types of
music, jazz and hip hop, and goes

in lots of different directions.

But he's, he's fantastic.

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

Beautiful.

Yeah.

Check it out.

That's, that's one of the things I also
want to, to cultivate with this thing.

It's like, there's a lot
of great music out there.

So I think directing people
to, to some good stuff is, uh,

Aarron Walter: Yeah.

Brad Frost: Aaron, thank you so much.

Thank you.

Seriously.

Thank you for for being on this thing.

And, uh, yeah, thanks to
you all for for listening.