The Revenge of the Real with Amber Case

Brad Frost: Amber.

What has you Waking up excited today.

Amber Case: Hello, hello and good morning.

well, since I moved back home to
Denver every night, I can feel

my mind consolidating all of the
memories that I had since I left.

And it's been, I guess 20 years

Brad Frost: Whoa.

Amber Case: or more I've
left, maybe 25 years.

have every night just these
dreams and, uh, it's really fun.

yeah, they're all
architecture based dreams.

So I, uh, I have a architecture
based storage mechanism, there

is a version of New York that.

My brain generated.

And now when I was six, that is not
based on the real New York at all.

Like there's, it's like
Hot Wheels race car type.

When my, when I was little, my mom said,
New York City streets are complicated.

And so I had a dream that night
that they were hot wheels and that

we were in my mom's little geo
metro, which is like a really car.

Brad Frost: I love geo.

Amber Case: It doesn't go above what,
like 97 or something miles an hour,

which she would top that out, you know,
uh, uh, in, in, in a, a commute on

the highway very often, uh, in Denver
because you have to drive quickly,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: to zoom around.

But because she couldn't get it to like
a hundred miles an hour in the dream, we

didn't get enough acceleration to get.

Up that loop and we ended up like, getting
to the top and then just falling down.

That was very scary.

Thankfully, I woke up before we
crashed, landed on top of ourselves.

but last night I had this dream
about this secret organization.

they had basically bought this
land and the land was for sale.

So I was touring the land and doing
a little conference on the land.

And the land was listed for
like $2 million, which is,

which is absolutely incorrect.

It was like a, a, a group zone.

So there were like
dormitories and bunk beds.

And then there was a beautiful like, kind
of chateau zone, absolutely gorgeous, and

like these, these nice little gardens.

And then on the plaque it was, it said,
you know, Claude Shannon was part of this.

And like all of these amazing
people, this is where they would

hang out for the summer for like
one to three months to discuss.

And that's why they produced
so much amazing things.

And then, you know, I saw
Steve Case on there, which.

The, the founder of a OL, which,
okay, we have the same last name.

There's a lot of cases.

Um, but I always thought,
oh, that's so cool.

Like, you know, what do cases
do when you look them up?

It's like, introduce Aristotle and thought
to Queen Elizabeth, out with Virginia

Wolf and be Virginia Wolf's mentor.

make a weird, CD rom laden, uh, marketing
for a OL, uh, that your parents can

still use because it doesn't change.

and the rest are musicians.

Uh, cool.

it's, it's part of my brain starting
to create its own dopamine again,

because for a while, I, Was just
not able to create it for a while.

And so it's, it's kind of like the
enzyme carwash that my mind goes

through at night when I wake up and
I've had one of these weird dreams.

it's like there's enough
memory consolidation.

If you used to watch your computer
defragmenting, there's enough

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: that I wake up and it's
like your memories have been organized

and now you can think clearer.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: So that's something I
was excited about this morning and

Brad Frost: Yeah, that's fantastic.

Oh my God.

Like I think maybe like to start with,
it's like the significance of place in

returning to a familiar place, giving you
a, a certain perspective that allows you

to defrag your brain and to, and to sort
of like, reflect even subconsciously on

your journey over the last 20, 25 years.

Can you like, speak to
like the importance of.

Coming back to a place that
is like familiar and like

what that unlocks for you

Amber Case: I, I was hanging out,
trying to find the place to live

I, I had been in Portland, Oregon.

I had lived in Boston.

I had lived in, Wyoming.

I had spent a lot of time in the Bay Area.

Uh, which country should I live in?

You know, what am I, what am I doing?

so I, I ended up in New York City
for a while, and then upstate New

York at this group house where out
of the top floor of the group house,

you could see a beautiful view.

of the mountain range out there?

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yeah.

Not, not the Rockies.

But the, like the Hudson
Valley, beautiful area up there.

Amber Case: to Hudson Valley.

It was the Adirondacks.

It

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Amber Case: And so I was looking out there
and I was like, oh, I love the winter.

You know, this is great.

I love the fall.

I love the spring.

I didn't hang out there in
summer because it's so humid

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Amber Case: building a house in the
backyard out of a, like a pool house

shed, it's like 10 by 12 feet because
I wanted to do like a spaceship in the

backyard that I was able to see like
CO2 and VOCs and like do calibrations.

I was testing all these little
products and I wanted, I wanted

to go to architecture school.

I said, for less than the price of
architecture school, I can make something

that's acclimatized to this environment.

so I did and I realized that in the winter
it's nice and dry and easy and in the

summer it was like wet bulb conditions,
a lot where your skin can't really

respirate, it's like 80 to 90% humidity.

80, 90 degrees.

it was hot and humid.

Uh, the place was small and so I
said, let's, let's install heat pump.

So this guy comes over and installs a
Mitsubishi heat pump, which is awesome.

And I said, well, does it
have dehumidification and does

it have like air exchange?

And he is like, well, you don't
have a basement on this property,

so it's really hard to like
set up this whole HVAC system.

I was like, oh, this, this
climate out here is impossible.

And I was like, I'm from Denver.

And he's like, I'm from Denver too.

I was like, oh.

Oh, and then I was like, this guy's great.

And, and I, I started going back to
Denver for a conference every year

and I realized, oh, I had just found
this place in the Hudson Valley that

for many seasons was basically Denver.

It was dry and cold and bright, and
there's some view of the mountains, but

that what I really needed was to go home.

And it had evolved so much
that it, it was funny.

It was like, well, there's plenty of the
same buildings, but it was also like, oh

yeah, this is, this is where I'm from.

I have a very location based memory
too, so every single street corner,

but I remember every single memory
I've had on this street corner.

So in Portland, Oregon,
there were too many memories.

They, they would like complicate my mind.

Like I'd go on a walk,
I'd be like, ah, like, I

Brad Frost: yeah.

Amber Case: In Denver.

All of the memories, they're so,
it's such a stretchy giant city.

Like there's no place I can go
where the memories accumulate so

much that I can't have a new one.

So it's very convenient.

It's just a big, you know, I call,
I used to call it LA with snow, and

there's so many places I haven't
gone because when I was a kid we

didn't go to that many places.

So I can just go and explore and it's,
it's like living in a new place again.

Brad Frost: Holy spokes.

Well, there's a bunch of stuff there.

You're talking about like like memories,
like literally like overlapping with a

specific latitude and longitude and that,
that could even feel like overwhelming.

And that to just even sort of spread
it out makes it feel like more That's,

that's, wow, that's, that's really cool.

But then there's also, there's like,
'cause like Denver is a crazy, like

Denver is on the up and up and has
been for a really, really long time.

And all the people that I know
out that way are like, oh my God.

Yeah.

Like everything.

Just like it is bananas.

Everybody's moving out here.

It has grown in size, in population.

There's just like a bunch of construction,
there's a bunch of like whatever.

So you have this like kind
of memory of your upbringing.

Amber Case: Yeah.

Brad Frost: Then you have like this, like
what it's evolved into and a return to it.

So in some cases it's like, it's
the same, but in other cases

it's, it's, it's different.

Amber Case: Yeah.

And I used to get really mad at it.

I was more mad when it
happened in Portland.

'cause there's this book called,
you know, the Place You Love is

Gone, progress Hits home and.

thought about that, you know why I
moved to Portland, Chuck Pollock and

Fight Club and you know, it was one
of the places that Robert Moses didn't

get to build the highway system.

And so I got to go to this place
that, you know, was more old

school, European city in a sense.

But

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yep.

Amber Case: you couldn't
get these big box stores.

So it was stuck in the nineties
economically, and then it

became the hipster place.

And yeah, that, that
was like, okay, great.

But, um, the cloud cover
Portland, Oregon, uh, you know,

and, and the light rendition.

The color rendition, and the idea that
there, there were less requirements for

trucks to come through the city and,
and have, pollution abatement, um, meant

that that inversion layer in the, in the
city, in the wintertime was like full of

some of the most toxic air in the us and.

was bad.

And once I learned about that,
I was like, um, whereas Denver's

like, yeah, you have a brown cloud,
but you also have a lot of wind.

And if I, you know, if I live
out east, I need to live a

little bit close to the airport.

Um, and I, and I, you know, drive around.

Um, I'm not as mad about the
new stuff that's that's come in.

I'm actually accepting.

I mean, yeah, there's, there's this
particularly bad condo development

from, you know, the two thousands,
the 2010s that looks like a

cruise ship landed on the land.

It's like a condominium,
it's like a, what is it?

I called it a shipping container for
the soul, where you don't, you don't

get to experience the actual geography.

You're just the same person,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: that moved in from New
York or wherever you moved in from.

You're wearing the same clothes.

You go and say you want
to do the outdoors.

You're, you know, wearing microplastics
and running around and you know, and

there's a lot of these like dining
groups and clubs and things like that.

But, there is something to be said for,
and, and, you know, spirituality and, and

and fraternities and groups and country
clubs and all of these old school, you

know, masonry and, you know, Elks lot.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Yep.

Elk Rotary Club, Kiwanis Club.

Amber Case: Any of

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: Or course,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: club, train club,

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: I think I see a lot of
people really searching for that.

I, I lucked out in two ways
when I moved to Denver.

'cause I said, okay, I know I'm
gonna get along with people here.

I know that almost everyone I'm
going to meet is a transplant.

But I'll just hang out at some, some
of my favorite old places and surprise,

surprise, at this intersection next
to the school that I went to, there's

a fantastic coffee shop and there's
a group table in the back where you

can sit and you get to meet everybody.

And so I went in there and
I was like, okay, cool.

So, so like the five types of people
is almost everybody Rock climbs check.

That's good.

I rock climb.

Some people are photographers
and filmmakers check.

No problem.

Some people make front end design,
some people do back end design check.

Done that.

Okay, great.

So it's okay.

But it, it was really hard to get
in a room with all of them and

the coordination across the city.

So I. I was following this person, Jose
Brianis, who is a dumb phone influencer.

So he tries to get people off of,
you know, short form content and

off their phones and off of screen
time, and he has like a quiz,

which dumb phone is good for you.

He has all this really
inspirational stuff.

He's very, he's a very kind.

Um, and you know, I, I,
I said, Hey, on LinkedIn.

I was like, hello.

to Denver.

He was like, great.

so we met up and I said, can you bring
all your, all your cool, minimal stuff?

And he

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: So he brings all
of it to a coffee shop and we

hang out for about three hours.

And of course we just, we just hit it off.

He's, he's

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: amazing person, extremely

Brad Frost: make.

Amber Case: very community oriented.

I try all his phones and I feel
like, you know, okay, great.

This is, this is a good person.

He says, you know, you might like,
this group called the company.

I was like, well, what's that?

Well, a, it's a community where
people get together and they do

like things like PowerPoint karaoke
or like tell stories and like, I'm

like, oh, cool, people speaking.

This feels like an old school community
that I was part of Portland called

Research Club, you know, that, um, or
you know, any of these other little

groups that, you know, in the height
of Hipsterdom you would be doing this

with people from all over the place,
especially Michigan for some reason.

and, and I was like.

Okay, these people, it's, you probably
got a amateur typographer and you probably

got, you know, this, you know, an amazing
couple probably runs it, you know,

'cause we had that with Cube Space and
uh, in, in Portland and just looking at

all the different things they're doing.

They have a, they have a
newsletter called Paperwork.

You have a literal punch card machine,
like a, a literal machine that you,

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: in that original machine
that's been restored where you have

your punch clock and they visualize it.

do pre nostalgia where they talk
about, you know, what happened this

week as if it happened 20 years ago.

They write a newsletter every week.

They put pictures.

There's a historian and it's a
community of maybe like 50 people.

This is not scalable, which
is the whole point is just

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: you know.

And, and Wednesday work night, which
I go to when I'm in town, you do

Pomodoro time things and you use this
very cute thing called Time Timer,

which I'm dressed up to match today.

So,

Brad Frost: Oh my God.

That's beautiful.

That is absolutely beautiful.

Amber Case: yeah.

So this is, you know, one of the, I,
I started looking around at different

products, like, how can we have products
that are delightful, like products

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: and two thousands

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Amber Case: can also rely on that are fun
to reteach people how to make great tech.

And so I made this thing, which is
the very first standard about how

much attention the product takes.

It has attention, peripheral, uh,
you know, peripheral attention,

durability, light, sound, and materials.

And that's how I met Jose
Briana is because I'm.

I'm a, I guess, not a dumb phone
influencer, but a let's make

good tech influencer or whatever.

I don't know what that even means,
but, um, a calm tech influencer.

so I walk into the space and
there's time timers everywhere.

You know, there's different
kinds of time timers.

There's also this one with a
whiteboard that you can write

your tasks on, which is exciting.

There's big ones, there's small
ones, there's mini ones, there's,

there's an app that you can put.

Anyway, so, so I went to the work night
and I just bring my most boring work.

And then we have passing periods in
between where we can talk to each

other, and then periods where you
don't, and then if you show up around

3:00 PM there's re there's recess.

We go to the park and like
play on the playground.

And it's, it's, it's something that
I wanted to do such a long time ago.

I had little plans for it.

It was like, we're gonna have this
thing that's part office, part

playground, where we can go and.

So I'm really excited about that
community because it's, you know,

it's tongue in cheek, but you have
all of these people who really caring.

There's, there's

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: and Oh man, everyone's
background's very different, which is also

Brad Frost: yes,

Amber Case: You know, it's,

Brad Frost: yes.

Amber Case: a fraternal
organization a sense.

And those are supposed to be small.

You can have chapters around the

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yes.

Amber Case: to be small.

And this idea of scaling into, I don't
know what these bigger things are,

but like, you know, it's like, because
I get these ads on Instagram, it's

like, have you just moved to Denver?

Well, yes, of course you can see my
location has changed from my account.

Brad Frost: Sure,

Amber Case: the spec meetup
where you paid $2,000 and then

you can go to special dinners.

And I was like, and they let everybody in.

That's the thing.

They're like, do you have

Brad Frost: sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You got the money, honey?

I got the time.

Amber Case: And, and, and they're so, you
know, they're, they're run by somebody who

doesn't care and they're trying to scale.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: you get venture capital?

Like, what?

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: the course theum
club need venture capital?

No, that's the point is that it's just
supposed to be enjoyable to, to be around

and it should be your voluntary community.

Like I, I, my, my aunt
died and we had the funeral

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: church where my
grandma always volunteered at the

church is a volunteer and Wow.

Is that church nice?

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: older building, but they
did a renovation and there's like little

shop in the basement where like the Boy
Scouts hang out and how to build stuff.

And there's like a little
fair that they had.

And talked to with the, like the, the
tech guy and he's like a Like a really,

really smart guy who's retired and
he's like, yeah, I could just do my

mechanical engineering for fun down here.

You know, and, and that sort of thing.

I think it doesn't need to be religious,
but it does need to have kindness.

And I think in a lot of more
traditional and past stuff that

maybe people would thumb their nose
up at whole point of them is that

I, they're actually quite accepting.

But you, you don't, you know, a lot
of people when they, when they aren't

part of that, just take it from work.

They say, oh, work cares about work,
doesn't care about, you can fire it

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: But if you don't have that.

you, you don't really have a, a
community because you could go

in and be like, I, I don't have a
job, or I, I need this and this.

And someone will say, well, no problem.

Or like, you know, I went in there
and I was like, I just moved in.

I need a, a rug.

And someone's like, well, guy
that I used to know, uh, he

died and I got all of his rugs.

I'd be happy to provide rugs for you.

Come over and see them.

Or, you know, this person's
moving to Berlin and she put all

of her stuff on the free table.

And I took almost all of it
because it was plants, So to me,

this is something I keep seeing.

You know, I, I was doing some stuff
in crypto for a while and everyone

was trying to make these DAOs, these
decentralized autonomous organizations.

And I'm like,

Brad Frost: Hmm.

Amber Case: you're trying
to make a community.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: You're trying to,
to participate by representing,

you know, on a blockchain,
which is a cool way of doing it.

Um, but the token ons mean that, you
know, the price is going to go into the

cool and when thing, when the resources
go away, people are going to fight.

So if, you know, you could have
membership dues, you know, you could

do toastmasters like the, the one
where you practice how to speak.

You could do all these things.

but it's better when it's small.

You know, small is beautiful, like 15
to 50 people won't get bigger than that.

multiple layers of participation.

Some people participate a little.

They can pay and some people participate
a lot and they don't have to pay as much.

Right.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Yep.

Amber Case: it's like $5
to go to the work night.

So if I go to, four a month,
that's $20 a month for a community.

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: I have, if I have a close
up, you know, like the membership to have

a free, every activity is, is like 20.

I mean, it's just a really
nice, it's a really nice thing.

So, you know, I'm excited
about that, uh, a lot.

And that, that.

Brad Frost: I, I, I, I freaking love it.

so I wanna play some things
back to you because I think

that, that you're touching on.

A whole bunch of things that,
uh, is exactly where my head is,

uh, precisely, which is namely
around sort of like the design and

qualities of effective communities.

and one you're hitting on the need for
community and this just giant hole that

I think everyone feels, whether they,
they know it explicitly or not, but all

of those church basements, all of those
moose lodges, all of those social clubs,

all of those bowling, bowling leagues, all
of those things have been eroded over the

course of decades, certainly in America,
but, but really everywhere, um, that the

design of physical spaces have affordances
and facilitate community or don't.

And there's a lot there.

There is, A counterbalance to the kind
of, let's go all in on work and have

work, provide all of my needs as a human
being and to, in a little kind of punk

rock way, do some things to reclaim some
real authentic community, and that this

doesn't need to be anything more than just
interesting people getting together and

being present with one another and being
just even frankly, around one another.

And that there is like this
real moment to maybe reflect on

that and say, what's that for?

Because if it's the $2,000 a year
membership, and what we're really trying

to scale is like maximizing profit,
while that is going to run counter to,

what communities actually need and like
the real needs of human beings, right?

Why are people getting
together for, to, to what end?

there's a lot you can do when you get
some interesting people together that

are not trying to maximize profits for
shareholders or whatever, but it's just

more like, oh, let's actually like, have
a creative place where people can be with

one another, bounce ideas off each other.

And you use the, the word explicitly.

And I love this idea of recess, to,
to play, to play with one another.

Amber Case: To do, to
do whatever you want.

I mean, it's an interesting, it's an
interesting notion where we got this

idea that like there's this abstraction
and we need to scale and people need

to make a bunch of money where you
really just need to feed your soul.

So.

I mean, take care of the
old property that you have.

And, and this is kind of that
dream that I had last night.

It's like, here's some land with
some garden in these old bunk beds.

And, and you know, I, I liked to study
secret societies for a while, and some,

some of my friends who were part of them
was on the East Coast, so of course I

knew people who went to Ivy Leagues.

They, they were like, Hey, just wanna
let you know, here's some photos.

I would be like, oh, it's just bunk beds.

Or it's just like, really, really
plain, you know, twin beds and,

uh, old school looking thing.

And that was the point.

was, you, you, you either have
a membership to something really

fancy and the people at the place
all are away from each other.

Or you have, all kind
of at the same level.

And it's your minds that are interesting.

I mean, everybody

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: way, but it's, it's like.

Uh, you know, the, the problem is, you
know, if you, if you don't optimize,

then you know, BlackRock can't profit off
of your, you know, it, it, it's, it's,

yeah, it, it's hard because you could pay
2000 a year for, uh, community, but if

you get sick or hurt to say, well, sorry
you didn't pay your membership dues by,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: you

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: to call them up.

You know, some guy based in Atlanta,
Georgia who's running the whole thing

and say, Hey, uh, I'm really having
trouble with X. And they'll be like,

okay, you know, you can just see, like
when I called up, 'cause of course

I'm gonna try calling these places up.

It's like, this person
was reading the script

Brad Frost: Yep.

Yep.

Amber Case: and, and it was
like, how do you do that?

Where do you get your soul from?

Or

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: soul a substitute?

And

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: you know, you can have it.

The, the other thing is like, how
do you behave in these spaces?

And I would call it, you
know, tolerance and joy.

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: company is like, people
hug each other when they come in.

They go, yeah.

When you complete a

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: it, there's a celebration
of each other that it's just positive.

It's

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: positivity.

It's, it's actually just
like we're excited and

Brad Frost: Genuine.

Yeah.

It's genuine.

Amber Case: it's a

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: way of this,
I think, but I think

Brad Frost: And it's cheap.

That doesn't cost anything.

Amber Case: doesn't

Brad Frost: does not cost anything.

And that, and that is like the
bedrock of healthy community

is, is just that attitude.

Amber Case: Yeah, we're not, you know,
and, and if there's hard stuff, there's

a room where you can talk about it.

But it's, it's not, you know, there,
there, and also they have a discord, which

is, which is so much fun in the Discord.

There's like a channel called
making, there's a channel for like,

requesting support where you're just
like, I'm feeling down because of X.

And they're like, it's
okay, blah, blah, blah.

You know?

it's very nice.

Um, but I was a part of a community like
this in, in Portland called Cube Space.

And it was, you know, a rabbi and his
wife, these wonderful people running an

event space where you could have an event.

And I got

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: into, you
know, local Portland tech

Brad Frost: I.

Amber Case: of that.

And that was above like a US bank.

And it was, was a very
plain looking space.

It doesn't really matter, you know, but,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yeah.

Amber Case: the thing.

It's like, I do think that
when you move to a place.

You might get hit with a bunch of ads
that say community, they know that you

want community and you might pay for it.

It's really hard to meet.

And so, you know, starting something makes
sense, but then how do you keep it going?

You have some places where it's not set
up properly and people fight, you know?

Um, and I'm really interested
in, you know, just studying the

history of this, organizations
have been around 40 or a hundred

or 500 years, and how do they work?

Because

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: people who are like, Ooh,
governance and dah, dah, dah, dah.

And I'm like, have you studied
communities that have been around

for a while and how they work and
how, you know, it's not, it's not

just some book club with five people.

It's, you know, and we created
a model train set for the past

40 years, and we have an open
house every year with popcorn.

I was like, what?

Like, so.

often, you know, it's a common goal or,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: mean, so, so these, these
are important because when somebody

says, we're gonna make a new thing, and
I'm like, is there really anything new?

Can you study what came before?

And, and I was told this when, you
know, there's an opportunity back in

2009 where, where, um, there were a
bunch of science fiction authors and

they said, you know, you'd probably be
a pretty good science fiction author.

decide at this, at this juncture.

Do you wanna be a science fiction
author or do you wanna be a speaker?

And I thought, oh boy, I don't come
from a, a demographic that would allow

me to spend the next 10 years without
making any money to do the work that

needs to be a science fiction author.

I'll probably have to do speaking.

That's a shame.

The person that's giving me this advice
will definitely be a Hugo Award winner.

And they did become one several years
later, but they were telling me that

you go to the Science Fiction writing
workshop, um, and there's this one

person that, that you learn it from
and you read these four volumes in

order to get into the workshop called,
you know, the Road to Science Fiction,

where science fiction is all about
telling the next part of the story.

But you need to know the history
in order to write the next chapter.

I think a lot of these, you know,
successful schools on the East coast,

that's what they're teaching you.

They're teaching you history you
know, social science and all these

things like, you know, a lawyer
often is a history undergrad so

that you can do things better.

And I think that's, that's this
thing that people miss in tech and

communities and things like that, is that

Brad Frost: yeah, yeah.

Amber Case: the past and
you don't understand.

What you could do.

So, you know,

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: people that started
the, the company did come from a

religious background and they, they,
they applied a lot of the best things

that they learned to make this one.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: with, you know,
cube space with, um, this

couple that, that we're Jewish.

You know, it's, it's, it's about having
a very long in the past that you can

really rely on and that the people in

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: don't need to
follow that specific thing.

You just need to enjoy the space.

And because I think because the space
is not always beautiful or exclusive or

anything, you have voluntary contribution.

You don't have people saying, I wanna be
at this very fancy space to look good, but

I'm not gonna make any connections because
no one, everyone's here just to look

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: Big expensive clubs
that are very about what they are.

they, they're, people are joining
them not for the correct reason.

So oftentimes, you know, with some
of the conferences that are run, it's

like, like Cyborg Camp for instance,
it's, we don't try to make it fancy.

We try to put it in February, so
that people aren't trying to get in

and they're still like a big wait
list and it sells out very fast.

And, but they're never
more than like 20 people.

They used to be like a hundred, we didn't
want to make it super fancy because

we wanted to have the right people

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: And I think

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: hard part is some
people can't look through that.

and that's a, that's a hard thing, you
know, I don't, I don't wanna have to have

people a lot to, to be a part of a thing.

Brad Frost: man, there, there's, there's
so much here you know, you've said it a,

a number of times where there's like the
nothing fancy being a feature, not a bug.

Right?

That there's like something like
charming and organic and real about it.

And that's actually like the design
of the simplicity is, is kind of.

Like helps underscore the authenticity
and the, and the genuine nature

of why are we getting together?

Like it doesn't need to be total like,
here's your, warm water and plain bread

and we're gonna sit on a plank floor.

It's like, not necessarily like monastic
in nature, but it is like, it is the.

All of that other stuff, the conference
swag as just crap, that just like

ends up sort of accumulating as,
you know, you, you know, been on the

conferences and stuff for a long time.

It's like I got drawers full of it.

You know what I mean?

And it's like, is that really, is that
really like what we're doing here?

Picking at the history for a bit, and I
think a lot of, whenever I hear you talk

about history and studying history about
groups and communities that have been

around for a long time, and that there's a
lot of things to learn from them, I think

that that's just like very, very astute.

you tie it into, when you look at the
longevity of those communities, what

you're really doing is getting is, is,
is saying what are these durable ideas,

these enduring ideas or these things
that best align with our human nature.

Right?

Which is, uh, we are designed, you know,
we, we have evolved to be group in, you

know, group creatures, group animals.

we are designed to have ways of.

Dealing with, conflict and dealing with
like, that we're too, we're too big.

We gotta split into multiple
groups now and stuff like that.

So it's like you, you kind of like, these
things and the things that you're sort of

describing in your community, which are
like more like secular in nature, right?

Are kind of like maybe sort of
like stripping off maybe that, that

kind of like supernatural aspect
of it and just kind of getting

to the donuts after, after, after
mass, uh, kind of a approach to it.

and it's, it's not a knock on, on
religion, but it's like when you

see like sort of, you know, the
statistics around church in decline

in religious communities in decline,
it's not being replaced by anything.

And I think that that's like a little
bit of like what you're, you're sort of

picking at here and something that I'm.

You know, sort of seeing myself as well.

We need that community.

But at the same time, I think that a
lot of people, I've been sort of asking

this quite a bit, which is just like,
what is preventing a lot of people

from, from getting in that door, right?

Like, you, you moved to a new place,
you're kind of are like, you were

like sort of seeking it, right?

And you also had some other,
some past experiences and good

experiences in some other communities.

So you kind of like had like a.
A hunch of like, I gotta do that.

And you're willing to kind
of like do that stuff.

Right.

the regular person who's living in that
cruise ship community, uh, in Denver

or, or just like anybody that is like,
might not have that same awareness that

they need that community or like, do
you have any thoughts on like, yeah.

Like what's, what's preventing or blocking
people from seeking these things out?

Amber Case: To, to be honest, le let,
let's segment, you know, uh, people

in the four different types for
this just to be, just to be overt.

are the people that don't, they're,
they're in such a tight situation where

their value is associated with making
money, um, and it's prestige based.

And they, they can't stop to think
because it would, would have to

sit there with themselves, uh,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: other than that.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: invested a lot in that.

So it's a, it's about looking good.

It's about being seen.

Um, and so they're, they're
gonna be in those nice condos.

They're gonna be on the dating apps.

They're gonna try to, match.

And then there's the kind of artist type
people that inherently have the community

because they're artists and so they
already know how to make these systems.

Um, and those systems are extremely
exclusive because either, like you

need to have very strong aesthetics
or a certain way of acting.

And, and then you, you, you have, you
know, the more class kind of trust fund

kid communities, which overlap with a
bit of the artist communities where there

are, are a lot of tiny little signals
that you can tell whether somebody's

in the same social class and those are

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: Um, so there's
all community there.

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Amber Case: then you have people who
work a lot, but they want something more

and they're alone they're, you know,
watching some show they, they don't.

Quite know what to do, but they keep
getting hit with these ads and now

they're like, no, that's, that's not it.

But they want a genuine love, right?

So there's some people, you know, you
think of like a, a queen bee and a bunch

of little soldier bees or, you know, ants.

It's like, that's how a
lot of people see someone.

Like if their family owns a, a, a
huge apartment complex, the people

in that apartment complex are,
are spreadsheet creatures, right?

Like they're a spreadsheet.

Um, and then there's a bunch
of people who, who wanna have.

Community.

and there's different
levels of that community.

So it's, you know, you have a professional
community of nomads and not nomads, and

I'm, I'm seeing a lot of these pop up all
over the world that I like to visit them.

So, you know, either they're in some
chateau that's, that's falling apart or

being restored or, you know, in Vienna
or France or, you know, or you know,

in some old, uh, you know, office space
that's gonna be torn down at some point

and sold, you know, that sort of thing.

And it's really special.

Um, and, you know, it's just, you know,
you have to have a space, you have to have

your third space because you do see people
working at fancy work, uh, coffee shops

and you're like, there could actually be
a group where you could work together.

if it's too nice, people
won't talk to each other.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: about, and, and Pixar
talked about this, you know, early on

when they had their old office, I used
to work outta the old Pixar office.

Um, when it became a different
company, you could see the, the, the

the, the scratch all over the place.

And like, you know, I'd look at my,
my desk and I'd be like, oh yeah,

uh, check out that drawing from,
you know, and I looked at the little

town in Point, Richmond, California,
like, this is the Pixar town.

And they went from being able to
not make everything and work with

constraints, be able to make anything.

And then was a lot of tours that came
through and everything looked really good.

And they had to have like a secret room
in the back where it was disheveled.

disheveled, it's not like
a total disaster pit.

It's about being

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: So

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: has to be designed by
the members and it can't be done by.

Somebody else, you know?

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: And that's what
I also like about, like

Toastmasters, like random spots.

And of course they have donuts
after them at some of them.

The really successful one I heard the
one at 7:00 AM they have, they have

snacks, you know, at Cherry Creek.

So exclusive community.

Um, but you know, you're, you're
sitting there and you're like, cool.

I wanna see how politicians think, what's
their behind the scenes room because I,

I have some friends who are, um, and beat
boxers and things like that, and they will

always book some place with 20 people.

To rehearse all their stuff.

And so for me, these
communities are rehearsals.

You don't have to be perfect.

No one's gonna judge you

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: perfect.

There's a lot of

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: unfinished.

And then by the time you've
rehearsed with that, you can

go out and you're quite good.

But no one sees that behind the scenes.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yeah.

Amber Case: wanna see
the behind the scenes.

And so there's a lot of ways of going
about it, but, but you can't say

like, hi, I want to make a community.

It takes a couple more people, you know?

It's quite, you know, it's, it's,
it's, um, you know, and, and, and

I've, I've done this before and it's,
I'm okay at it, I suppose, you know?

Um, usually when I try to run something,
everybody starts a company together, um,

you know, it's, it's, it's really, it's a
thing that's overlooked because, you know,

we, we cannot roll our eyes at the past.

We're only, you know, this not
be, I think this is like the most

temporary generation right now,
and we don't need to be temporary.

and, and so the durability that you
talked about, it's like an airplane

wing that by default balances itself.

The equations behind the scene are
partial of financial equations.

They're very, very complex.

But you can learn how to make a
system that has enough buffer and

enough resiliency it survives Jos.

Whereas some people will make something
that everything has to be perfect.

And if

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: goes away, it's bad.

It's like, no, no, no.

You need to have, you know,
gradients, buffer, gumminess,

robustness, all these little things.

You know, suspension.

You need to have suspension so
you can go over some speed bumps.

Now you can't go off a cliff, although
I've been studying cars and some of

them you can, um, very expensive.

But there's, there's so many
different ways of considering.

How to do this.

That, you know, it's the, you
know, the love buffer is very good.

What does that mean?

It's care.

Brad Frost: Yes,

Amber Case: really buy that, um,

Brad Frost: yes,

Amber Case: in, in the same way, you
can't someone volunteer their time.

It's kind of like a teacher that's
volunteering their time to buy their own,

uh, supplies for their students because
they wanna have their students be better.

Or, you know, one of my favorite teachers,
Kevin, Linda, or like, worked at a wealthy

school and a low income school at the
same time so that he could teach us he

Brad Frost: yes,

Amber Case: And he was very smart, you

Brad Frost: yes.

Amber Case: he made a
big impact on our lives.

Um, and so, you know, there's so many
options, I think, for how to do this

well, without stopping and considering
why do I want to do this thing?

Um, it, you know, it, it,
it doesn't work as as much.

And maybe I wanna do that a little bit
with, with Calm Tech Institute, like

maybe I want this group of people to
have community around making products

that aren't the thing with the
bells and whistles that are durable

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Amber Case: term, are in a sense middle
class, this buffer system between

Brad Frost: yeah.

Amber Case: and, and, and extreme wealth
so that it, it's more resilient, right?

So for

Brad Frost: Yes,

Amber Case: is like, you have a
wetland at the edge of Florida

and when a hurricane comes in, it
doesn't hurt stuff as much, but

Brad Frost: yes.

Amber Case: a bunch of concrete up when
the hurricane comes, it hurts a lot more.

So how do you apply these gradient
softeners all over the place so that um,

the waves coming in, uh, get diffused
in a way that people can handle them?

And this is something, you know,
I would like to write about it and

just go around the world and find
all these, these systems because in

the past when people were in small
tribes, you would die out if you.

Didn't figure this stuff out.

And a lot of

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: thousand

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Amber Case: history where
they're like, yeah, this worked.

Like my favorite was just
going around the, the American

Southwest with my parents.

And we would stop at these random places
on reservations and just listen to people.

And I remember sitting there for two hours
and the sky was telling us about these

things, and then we got like a little
tape at the gift shop about, you know,

coyote, the coyote trickster, and I, and
I was reading it and I was also reading

all the Greek thought at the same time
with like the gods and the goddesses.

Brad Frost: yeah,

Amber Case: okay, gods and goddesses
are like, the Kardashians got it.

Um, you know, they're very fancy.

but then you had like coyote and
rabbit and bear and I was like, aha,

this is like youngian archetypes,
like 72 youngian archetypes or

horoscopes or anything like that.

It's, know, when you get
bore and you figure out.

As you grow up, what type
of character are you?

You've got a thousand years of history
of understanding how that character works

with the system and you understand all
the stopgaps and safeties so that all of

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: characters can
work in harmony or disharmony.

And you know, that coyote

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: with things.

So, you know, and bear's gonna
be like this, you know, and, and

that it, it is pretty much the
same types of things over time.

And if you start to

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yep,

Amber Case: that they're gonna be a
little bit more like that in the future,

but you, you end up having a history
of like, remember when Bear did this?

Oh, ha ha.

You know?

it's interesting.

And then it's, you know,
very climate based too.

Like what are people doing
carving totem poles up in, up in

the Pacific Northwest and what's

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: Because, you know, I
went on a business trip with my dad.

Whoa.

That was, uh, that, that was,
um, extremely influential on me.

I was always really interested
in, you know, what original

people have done, or, you know.

The people with a thousand
or 2000 year history,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: need to be written down.

You don't need to read a research
paper to understand the pH of the

soil or have a special pH meter.

You can plant an indicator plant at
H five and know exactly whether the

soil is ready to plant something.

it, it's a very efficient compression.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: helpful.

And you know, even in the dark ages when
things went more verbal because, you know,

written thought might have been erased.

Um, tradition when you pass
it down in stories and all

these things is interesting.

And, and you know, I was talking with one
group and they said, you know, the, the

reason how we get kids to pay attention,
they don't wanna listen to the story

from the elders, but there's a river.

So have the kids swim
across the river and back.

And they're so exhausted when they
come back that they're sitting

down and they're ready to listen.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: you know, we
don't necessarily do that.

We have to have recess, we
have to have these things.

And it's not about learning how
to use, you know, Google Docs.

It's about understanding
what we're using it for.

And so you do get a bunch of people that
are, you know, basically workers that are

learning how to use, not even really a
tool, like a printing press or something.

Um, so they don't get the history of it.

Like when we say you gotta learn digital
tools, like do you know that Adobe

Photoshop came from John Warnock and
Charles Jetski and that, you know, one

of their dads was a print shop guy,
and that's why it's called Photoshop.

It's a print shop.

That's where all your
little tools come from.

But if you learn that from scratch,
you'll understand why you have specific

typo, graphic sizes and why you have

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: And you're very.

Very particular when you put things
together because you have to handset them.

And if you take

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Amber Case: and you take those
principles over, you're going to have

a really good experience online you're

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: So I think a lot of these,
these issues is that we have this

discontinuity from digital to analog
and digital is inherently compressive,

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: think of it as a spectrum
and everybody learns analog 3D before

they go to 2D, because 3D is 2D, it's

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: of 3D.

And you

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: house lessons.

You know where, where this one teacher
would come in and say, is, that's it.

The students had to consider.

That means.

He didn't say anything for the
rest of the class, you know, um,

where, where you're stuck, you know,
and, and you have to consider the

things that are formerly invisible.

A lot of that stuff that we take for
granted, like light switches and rugs

and all of that, brilliance behind
that, to make something durable to, to

weave a story into a, a Persian rug,
for instance, or to make electricity in

a way that anybody can touch the light
switch and not die, you need to have

a, a regulation to be able to, to, to,
to pick it apart is really special.

And these things are

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: and meaningful
and, and very impressive.

And a lot of these other things that,
you know, not only do you have to be an

expert or go to bootcamp to understand
a piece of code and a modern browser,

that you need to, to, to have done
that recently in the past two years.

And that knowledge can go
away really fast if you don't

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I, yeah, that, I, I think you're
hitting on something that's, that's like

really important is that, and, and this
has been kind of my experience as well

as, as someone who's been kind of like.

Increasingly teaching about sort of things
like technology and stuff where it's

like, starting to spell out that history
and help connect the dots and stuff

between, uh, a lot of these different
worlds and concepts and yeah, that

transition over from the analog world.

it seems to be that the present
moment is over dialing on tools, how

to, um, this kind of convenience,
this temporary nature of things

that it's like, it's all fleeting.

It's just, you know, the algorithmic
feed or like the whatever.

And it's just like that.

Our world increasingly just kind of feels
very unmoored from anything that is like.

Again, that, that durability
or that whatever, and that,

no wonder people feel adrift.

a lot of people seem to be like
running through the motions and like,

even like the, the processes for, for
making, uh, software for instance,

it's like we're chopped up into these
like tiny little boxes and, you know,

move things from the to-do column
over into like the done column.

But again, it's like, what's missing
is the, what the hell is it all for?

And like, like what are
we actually like doing?

What are we actually like building?

What are, like, moral
foundations of all of this stuff?

there's no time, there's no space, there's
no, value in analyzing any of that stuff.

So a lot of people just, I think are,
are feeling like they're like, it does

get into the whole kind of fight club
stuff where they, where it's like, yeah,

you're in the apartment with like the,
the catalog like superimposed with like

the prices of all, like, the things.

And, and a lot of people are just
like, I guess that this, this is life.

I'm like running through,

Amber Case: Yeah.

Brad Frost: going through the motions.

I'm building some stuff.

I'm like doing stuff.

I'm, we got the cold shower, we got
the, the real look in the mirror for

a while, and then all of a sudden now
it's like, it's, it, it feels like

the pendulum's like swinging back or
like the, the zeitgeist right now.

It's like back to this kind of like,
let's talk about efficiency, let's talk

about scale, let's talk about like,
whatever, and let's talk about this stuff.

And through this very,
very, very myopic lens.

Amber Case: Yeah, there's,
there's a lot in there.

I think there's a law of
conservation of effort.

No matter what, you need
to use the same amount.

So if you're using AI, for instance, you
need to use the same amount you end up

doing more work, you know, unless you
really understand what you're doing.

And so if you're

Brad Frost: yeah.

Amber Case: like you've, you know, then
you need to edit or prep it or whatever.

But because it's kind
of a companion, you can.

Feel like you're not alone
when you're doing it.

So it's very helpful for an empty page.

It

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: depends how,
how you approach it.

But I also think it's interesting
to think, you know, because we're

more efficient, we have more time,
it feels like because we're more

efficient, we have less time.

But it really just means that
that stuff like a gas expanse

to fill every available crevice.

Whereas I like to go on road
trips where, you know, three hours

out of town, I realized I didn't
need to do any of those things.

It didn't really matter.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: of the things
that I was trying to make

myself busy with, it's like.

There aren't that many
things that I need to do.

And you know, and, and for me, I miss, you
know, working at a burrito shop because

immediately I got to see the feedback.

Did I make a burrito?

Well or not?

It was very clearly defined.

I was doing a lot of repetitive
tasks, but then I had time to think.

and after, after work, I would always go
to, you know, Barnes and Noble because and

I would go and read books and, you know,
it was cheap enough that I had enough

time and it was a good life, you know?

And in some countries you get
enough as a food service person

and you get really good at it.

I've also noticed on planes, you know,
there are some flight staff that make

everything pretty silly, you know, and
they've been working there for 30 years.

And

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: you know, it's like they make
it silly because it makes it easier for

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: So not only that, but we're
like losing all of this color and texture.

You know, our cars are getting boring.

Everything looks the same, everything's
compressed 'cause it's easier to sell.

it doesn't seem like things
are actually efficient.

It seems that they're temporary.

And I'm hoping we'll

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: revenge of the real
because it's not, it's not reasonable.

Like one of my friends was telling me,
he was taking me to the airport one day.

He was saying, you know, if you look at
a, at a, a loop, an electrical loop on

a circuit board, and you need, you know,
electricity go through and complete the

loop, but you keep adding an amount that
you need to push through the loop, you,

you have more and more that you need.

E eventually you need more and more
energy to complete that loop, each

revolution that you go through.

So I was thinking like, oh no, you
know, if you're working within unlimited

constraints, people are way more clever.

Well, how we got a lot of interesting
video games in the eighties, but if we

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: much, we
never finished the game.

You know, it's the same with Pixar.

You know,

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Amber Case: we can do anything.

So these constraint based systems are, you
know, we have all this choice, we have all

this stuff, but are people really happy?

know, people were apparently very
happy making bread and during the

pandemic because it was non-abstract.

And so

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: I think that
abstraction is, is hard.

So what I've been doing, I'm, I'm
on the science advisory board at

Remarkable, which is a company in Norway.

Brad Frost: Oh, beautiful.

Yeah.

Amber Case: It's great.

There's three
neuroscientists on the board.

And me and one of the neuroscientists
has, has shown that handwriting.

Whether on tablet or on paper allows
you to take five times less notes,

but you remember them computer.

what it

Brad Frost: Yep,

Amber Case: the shape that you are
drawing, triggers your mind better than

every key on the keyboard, which looks
the same and feels the same to your

Brad Frost: yep,

Amber Case: Because

Brad Frost: yep,

Amber Case: you touch, of course, I've
got this little thing of wax here.

Um, what you touch is, is
affecting how you think.

And so your cognition

Brad Frost: yep.

Amber Case: tactile.

And so your cognition being tactile
means if you're a woodworker or an

upholsterer or a jewelry maker, your,
or ceramics, you know, or riding a

bike is going to be very interesting.

Whereas if you're on a computer,
you need to take breaks to have that

tactility, which is why so many people
are like, I want to retire to a farm.

Brad Frost: Yes, yes.

Amber Case: they want
the real, real, real.

And in a

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: having something outside
yourself that isn't, you know.

Facebook reels waking you up in
the morning with all the stuff.

There's a

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: explode if you don't milk it.

Brad Frost: doesn't get any more
real than, than bursting utters.

Amber Case: You want to
see your animals in pain.

Of course not.

The vet bill is very expensive because

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: a farm.

Oh, you wanna do an alpaca farm?

Good luck.

They can die for no good reason.

You know, maybe you should intern
on an hacka farm for four years

before you decide to take that on.

You know, it's like 20 5K
to get a female alpaca.

Do you know anything
about animal husbandry?

No.

You know, everyone's like,
oh, I wanna do a farm.

I'm like, well, you're gonna do
chickens, Richard's chickens or ducks.

When are you gonna collect this?

What about issues of
that will automate it?

What does that mean?

What sensors are you going to have?

You know, you need to actually
interact with these creatures.

Um, and some people do a, a really good
job, but Many of my family members, um,

either live alone or live a very small
life on some land that they got in the

sixties or seventies when it was nothing.

You know, they'll have like 25 or 50 acres
and they'll have a herd of cattle they'll

have, and the nonverbal communication
that you get to have with the animals,

it's, it's a very different situation.

I mean, you know, my, my mom's cousin
has five dogs and you have a dog.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: Is it a frenchie?

Brad Frost: He is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amber Case: I could tell

Brad Frost: Um,

Amber Case: ears.

Brad Frost: big old bunny rabbit ears.

Yeah.

Amber Case: designer dog.

It's the studio dog.

You wanna have this cute
shape hanging out with

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: and the, and the,
and the work that it provides is

being adorable and very strange.

but yeah, you know, like, this guy
will play the fiddle in the morning and

there'll be a dog that really likes to
hang out with that, you know, and, and,

and everything has a different character.

And the goat, oh my gosh,
one of them's like, yay.

There's

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Amber Case: another one's like,
ah, you've separated me from my

kid so I can get milk E, you know?

Brad Frost: yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amber Case: but, but
it's, it's so, cyclical.

You know, every morning you've gotta
do this stuff and you get tired.

You're not sitting there.

In the same way.

And, and that's not to
romanticize it, like farming

itself is getting consolidated.

So you, you can't really do that
But, and that was the norm of

everybody and it was really hard.

I'm not, but, but I

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Amber Case: people like, I know
maybe you should practice first.

Maybe you should ease into it.

You know, you really need like
$20 million now to get a farm.

It's not like,

Brad Frost: yeah,

Amber Case: because it's, it's you,
you're gonna have to figure out and

like, if you want to make it profitable,
either you need to make, you know,

organic biodynamic wine part of the time.

And then you need to have that be a, a,
a wedding venue for the other part of

the time, subsidize the ability to make

Brad Frost: yeah, yeah,

Amber Case: it's not

Brad Frost: yeah.

Amber Case: that the
industry competes with.

Um, it's just practical.

Right.

But then it's like.

I don't know.

I, I keep seeing this sort of thing where,
you know, you, you have, you have people

that are very physical in their jobs
and they wanna watch a screen at night.

You have people that are very screen in
their jobs and they wanna rock climb, you

know, and, and it makes a lot of sense
that we really just need a mix and, um,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yes,

Amber Case: and

Brad Frost: of course.

But, but like, it, that, that shouldn't be
super revolutionary, but at the same time.

But it is.

But it absolutely is.

I think that that's like what's, what
has been really fa fascinating about,

uh, you know, now these generations
of people ha who have grown up with

screens, who have grown up with this
being not just like, I had the Apple two

computers and organ trail or whatever
in my school, and it was like one,

one class, you know, or like one, one
time a week or something like that.

Right.

For, for a while.

And now it's just like, yeah, like
these things are, are here all

the time and they're designed for.

To, to be interacted with and
engaged with at all times.

And a lot of us, it's just that that's
the current, and, and that means

that the, the time on screens and the
time like dealing in these very kind

of abstracted things, including the
people who create the stuff, right?

Like you were saying earlier
about like country punching

on the, the, the keyboard.

It's like that's a, that's a,
a proxy, that's an abstraction

to like the act like yeah.

Milking a cow or milk
in a goat or whatever.

And it's like, there, there is something
really interesting at like what happens

in what atrophies when we sort of
spend more time in those worlds and

that that desire, whether people are
like actually going to bake a farm

or not, but the desire to do that and
that instinct and that want to sort of

have something tangible and tactical.

Like something, something real
and direct, uh, to counter those

abstractions, like makes perfect sense.

And there's, there's something else
you said that I think is really

fascinating because my wife, uh, wa was
a jewelry, maker, uh, and is now, almost

through her arts therapy, uh, degree.

there's the, The mechanical or this kind
of multisensory sort of thing and how

that, that basically like, kind of like
approach to learning and understanding

and expressing and stuff like that is at
the very base of like arts therapy, right?

Like this is, like, what this
stuff is, is that it's very, very

difficult to just be like, I feel sad.

And you can say that and like, we could
believe you and, but it's like, that's

like simply like one dimension, right?

But whenever you're able to like
embody that, whether that's through

music, through clay, through, through
drawing, through whatever, especially

for it's like, or I feel mad, there's
different artistic mediums that

have different affordances that are
good for getting that stuff out.

You feel mad, here's a
big old ball of clay.

Beat the shit out of this thing.

You know what I mean?

But, but again, and through that,
all of the, the sort of brain work

and stuff is happening that is like
helping people process and kind of

come to terms with it and ultimately
like work, work through stuff.

did you say the revenge of the real?

That's freaking beautiful.

Like, did that come from somewhere
or did you just say that?

Amber Case: that's like a
thing that I came up with.

I mean, there is a, a book
called that, but it doesn't

have anything to do with this.

It was, just

Brad Frost: I mean that Like this
sums up our whole conversation.

It is like, it is like, it's like this
is, this is the title of the movie.

Amber Case: yeah, yeah.

It, it's, uh, it's a whole situation.

Um, and then of course I put it
on LinkedIn and there was some

like trend reporter, so they made
a big important report called the

Renaissance of the Real, and I

Brad Frost: No,

Amber Case: not a renaissance.

Brad Frost: it's not the revenge.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amber Case: thank you for not directly
using that and not quoting me, I

suppose who owns anything anyway?

It doesn't matter.

But the most

Brad Frost: right.

Amber Case: just to think like, you
know, it's interesting 'cause some

people are like, well, that's soft.

So we need to have Chromebooks
in kindergarten, um, and I, and

we're gonna replace the art.

And if you look at how the mind, the,
the brain is actually stimulated by

hands, you need to have a multisensory
education you can go to one sense.

And I argue that a
computer is only one sense.

It's your eyes and you play

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: to tolerate that
visual tiny box that you're in.

And it

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: But when you're doing
something with clay or art or whatever, it

doesn't matter about, the output process
is using your hands and there's way

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: more senses in your hands.

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: is much higher.

I think of humans as having bad
eyes, bad ears, and bad noses,

and extremely sensitive hands.

Because we're makers, we're the most makey

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: of most species.

That's who we are in our souls.

And we love inventing weird
stuff, and we love making art,

decoration, baskets, whatever.

People talk about underwater
basket weaving as like a thing.

And it's like, that's
actually pretty complicated.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yeah.

Amber Case: one of it, it's, it's not law.

It's a, that law also is extremely
inventive because you're, you're

having a simulation environment in
your head in which you can understand

what to put on paper and you're,
you're playing chess, you know, and

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: the different implications.

So we've got that.

Huge simulation environment in our
minds that you're training as your own

LLM to understand all these different
turbulence scenarios and making resiliency

and thinking ahead of the fact you're,
you're doing upholstery that says,

how can someone sit on this 50,000
times and it becomes better with time?

You're talking about farming.

You're like, okay, I am thinking
at least three years at a time to

the field yield and the phosphates
in the soil and like, we we're

gonna plant this to dah, dah, dah.

You know, it is all
about long-term thinking.

Um, whereas oddly, with publicly traded
companies, you need to think quarterly.

Can you imagine planting a tree
in the ground and next quarter

saying, you haven't done anything?

I'm gonna cut you.

W

Brad Frost: Yep,

Amber Case: least three
years for it to even show up.

And then how many

Brad Frost: yep.

Amber Case: take to
build a house out of it?

So I

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: old school family
run privately held companies.

That provide a middle class, and that's
like a plumber, an electrician, you know?

Um, there's a middle class in Germany that
pro that produces very meaningful objects

where you pass that down from generation.

Generation.

so for me it's, this is very important
to remember, because this is, you

know, this is the way to make that
electrical, that that circuit go

around, uh, and, and have enough
energy to go to the next revolution.

Um, but this is, this is the
issue is like this, this temporary

society is very confusing.

There's also like fast fashion
and all this stuff that's

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: polluting water supplies.

Like we don't, didn't have this many
clothes and they respected them more.

And they repaired

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: and we could say, well,
those people were poor and we should be

able to have something new every year.

And it's like, we don't need
to pretend that we're the upper

class from the 15 hundreds.

just, it's not about that.

It's, it's about.

But, but that's the thing.

It's like we've gotten to a sense
where we have this low impulse

control and that's getting eroded
so that stuff can make money.

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Amber Case: these things weren't
super publicly held and, not

everything was that, you know, we'd,
we'd have a different situation.

We wouldn't have ad-based social networks.

That inter intermediate
our experience of reality.

You

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: when

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: is published, it's
gonna be on a platform where you're

encouraged to watch the next thing or
listen to the next thing right after,

and what, where would it be located
that didn't have that, you know, the

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Amber Case: and then there still ads
on the radio, but at least they're

kind of funny, you know, a lot of
'em are local in the, in the past

Brad Frost: Oh my God.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The local, local radio ads are,
are chef's kiss of, of that.

it's beautiful.

Yeah.

Amber Case: to global, you know,
and, and globalization for a while.

Really interesting.

In the nineties, you know.

but I, I don't know.

I don't know what's going to happen, but
I think, you know, the revenge of the reel

is interesting and we'll see it at the
edges and it won't draw a lot of tension

to itself 'cause it doesn't need to.

Brad Frost: yeah.

Amber Case: and

Brad Frost: That, that's antithetical

Amber Case: yeah,

Brad Frost: and, and in a lot of
ways it's, it's, it's, that's kind

of by design I think that what
I do get fascinated by is that

encouraging, realness, authenticity
Our abundance, whether that's capital,

whether that's technology, whether
that's whatever, at promoting real.

And I think that there is a way to design
it in such a way that, that you're,

you're able to encourage that and to
just like, you know, it's, it's, yep.

Here's the space.

So I'm in Pittsburgh, right?

There's a lot of old churches.

There's a lot of old buildings, right?

We used to be a city of a million people.

I think we're down to like
250, 300,000 people, right?

So there's like a lot of, you
know, spaces that are, that have

been sitting and underutilized
for, for a long time and whatever.

And so when you think about, you know,
the potential for that stuff, a lot

of it really is just that sweat equity
or that like whatever, to sort of get.

Something operational once again.

And I think there's a digital
corollary to that there.

I think that there are like a lot of
things that you can do to facilitate

better spaces and to use this amazing
technology that we're using to talk right

now to facilitate that stuff, right?

Again, it, it all boils down to
again, like what's it all for?

And I think that you're a hundred
percent right that like a, a quarterly,

you know, attitude and talking about,
you know, return on investment and

sort of that stuff is, you know,
runs counter to what the world needs.

'cause again, it all comes out
to, well what's all that for?

Right?

Like, 'cause, 'cause there is a need.

To have businesses, there is a need
to have like this, this stuff isn't

necessarily like fundamentally messed up,
it's just that like we've lost the plot

and kinda like what we're actually like
building towards, because at some point

we hit this idea of, of enough, right?

And a lot of us have gotten to that point
of enough and a lot of like, companies

can get to that point of enough and it's
just like, well how do you create just a

sustainable thing that when you need a new
pair of pants, here's the place that makes

the good pants that's gonna like do that.

And those people need to be
able to make those pants.

But it's not to, to get them out
of the game of, if you liked one

pair of our pants, you're going
to love 35 pairs of our pants.

It's like, it's like we
have to get out of that.

Amber Case: real stuff, though.

It's going to be really expensive.

That's, that's

Brad Frost: Right.

Amber Case: the horror is that,
you know, I, I, I, uh, I wrote

this article for a design magazine
called The $500,000 Leather Jacket.

It was how much it actually cost
to produce a single jacket in terms

of environmental degradation for
the dying process and the river

and the cross synergen and the

Brad Frost: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amber Case: Anyway, it

Brad Frost: The, the externalities.

Yeah.

All, all of those externalities.

Right, right,

Amber Case: donut economics, it's
like what if you had very few

clothes but you repaired them?

What would that do for the economy?

Well, it would mean that you
would have a local economy

that would be, here's the guy,

Brad Frost: right.

Amber Case: guy girl that repairs your
pants, trousers for those of you abroad.

Sorry,

Brad Frost: Trousers.

Amber Case: can't say

Brad Frost: It's slacks.

Amber Case: Yes, LAX trousers.

Not long chunks, not underwear.

but yeah, and you would have it
be made out of real materials.

would use it for 20
years, you know, and it

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: But, but that's

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: is like the, it
would be about more local stuff.

You know?

You, you'd have your trusted person
for 40 years, you know, kind of like,

I, I used to go to, to this place in,
in, uh, Denver called Sura Square.

Uh, I still go, but as, as a kid,
that's where we would get like our

rice cooker and our rice and like
all of our Japanese stuff, because

my parents' friends were from Japan.

So we needed to make, we needed to have
a Japanese supplier direct from Japan.

And it, and the

Brad Frost: Amazing.

Amber Case: for 40 years.

And when it was new, they had a dentist
upstairs, you know, Japanese dentist.

I went there the whole
time until he retired.

And to rely on that.

Is really important to, you know,
I, I was at my friend's house.

We were, um, we were writing a, a book
together in Germany, and his 8-year-old

kid could just run around the neighborhood
because everybody knew the kid.

All the, the, the stores had been there
forever, mom and PA shops, but also the,

the rent for those stores was quite low
and everything was quite walking distance.

So you didn't have

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: about renting your
$5,000 a month space in a new condo

development that's going to last
for a, a short period of time.

Because the only things you
can put there are a laser es

esthetician, la uh, you know, lounge.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Yep.

Amber Case: Um, your new tropics,
you can put in a high-end coffee or

definitely a bubble tea 'cause that
has a really good return on investment.

And you might be able to temporarily
put a dog wash or a veterinarian,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: not what people need.

They need a bodega.

Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah.

Yep.

Amber Case: you know, they need your
leather repair shop, you know, so, so

I used to live outside of Troy, New
York, and so if I needed stuff repaired,

I would take it to this, this guy
who'd been there for like 80 years,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yeah.

Amber Case: and it was great.

Brad Frost: you're gonna have the best
conversation with them and, and there's

just like a, a wealth of, of knowledge
in, in intellect and craftsmanship in

mastery to all of this, where it's like,
not everything is like, it's like they're

doing a service, but you could just like
tell that they're like this just treasure

trove of like, of like depth and in
their, in their craft and, and beyond.

Amber Case: But the default
was to be a treasure trove.

We didn't consider a treasure
trove that was just the norm.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Sure.

Yeah.

Amber Case: and, and when we say, you
know, uh, this entry level position

requires 10 years of experience.

Well, when you're five years old, helping
out your parents, you know, it doesn't,

it doesn't mean that that was great.

You know, a lot of
people are like, I don't

Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Amber Case: wanna be a dj.

And,

Brad Frost: yeah, yeah.

Amber Case: know, but you still
see multi-generational in,

in, in, um, in Japan for sure.

So again, it's really important
not to glorify these things,

Brad Frost: Yes.

Yeah.

Amber Case: idea that you could do
something for the rest of your life.

I, I know that, you know, Andrew McClean,
uh, Marshall McClean's grandson is

an upholster, I got to go visit his
place in Ottawa, you know, and it was

really interesting seeing that, you
know, it's, you can be good at a thing

and you can be good at it for life.

I, I think that with code and design,
you can't be good at it for life.

But I'm really interested in
what are the principles that

are, that are same throughout.

Throughout history, right?

Like

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: time timer, like,
this is gonna work no matter what.

Like, this is great.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: or, you know, and, and
to try and see that over time I

think is very important to say are
the universals of tech and design

that don't change no matter what.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: any generation, any teacher,
any professor, you can learn those and

then you can apply them to whatever.

And I, and I think you know, that the
people that started Figma in the Golden

Days of Figma, you know, and, and a couple
of these other people at, I think it was

RISD or Brown, there's a professor of
graphic history, graphic design, history.

Brad Frost: Okay.

Amber Case: through that class gets to
learn all of the arrows of history and

then they can choose what they want to,
to invoke when they design their designs.

Brad Frost: Yep,

Amber Case: And

Brad Frost: yep, yep, yep.

Amber Case: the whole point.

That's a

Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Amber Case: right?

And so if we can learn that in all
these shapes, that would be great.

Brad Frost: you're, you're
onto something there.

Because, because it's like the,
this world is quite new, right?

The, the digital realm, and yet it, it
seems like it, it's so incestuous and

like inward looking where it's just
like, you know, we're the, we're the, we

work for whatever, or we're the, we're
the Instagram for whatever, we're the

Pinterest for this thing or whatever.

And it's just like, it's, there's
this like total like lack of

imagination where it's just all,
like, all, all people are doing it.

Like looking at the adjacent company
or service or, or digital thing.

That's, that's whatever.

But like, like what's needed is again
that, that history and that ability

to sort of like look across arts,
architecture, theater, you know, like, and

you name it any creative endeavor, right?

Anybody doing things, bunch of people, uh.

Getting together as a, as a
group to make something new.

So I have an idea.

I'm gonna, I you, you're the first person
I think that it, like, kind of publicly

like kind of pitching it to, I wanna
do a conference that is about creative

collaboration where it is just like,
okay, uh, the first act is, improv comedy

group, and they're going to do a little
thing, and then we're gonna talk about,

and that they're gonna sort of talk
about how they collaborate and how they

know it's working and, and when they get
stuck and, and what they do about it.

And then the next one is,
say, an architecture firm.

you get all the different
disciplines involved to that.

And then they do a little sort of
show and tell, and then they talk

about their collaborative process
and what works and what doesn't.

And the next one you get a, you know,
the jazz, uh, you know, the jazz group

in there, the jazz quartet to do their
thing and talk about collaboration and

when it's working and when, when it's not.

And basically over the course of, you
know, a day or two or whatever, you

get this like kind of cross section of
the world's, uh, creative disciplines,

kind of swapping notes on how they.

Get things done together.

Amber Case: Cool.

That sounds great.

And

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Amber Case: should be a third day where
people actually make stuff together.

Brad Frost: there it is.

And then, and it is like, all
right, let's do some shit.

Right.

Amber Case: and then you have to show it.

I, a lot of these creative communities
that I've been hanging out with, it's like

putting on a talent show or a pageant,
or we're all doing Monty Python together.

What?

And then by the end of the day, it's like,
wait, everybody memorized their lines?

How is that?

And it's really

Brad Frost: Did you do?

Amber Case: but, um, and in a sense it's
kind of like what you would see it, you

know, in school if you were the popular
kids or, or you were the nerd kids, right?

Like, we're doing theater, it goes from
being an individual to being a collective.

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: that transitions really nice.

because yeah, this, this super
individualism stuff to me is

like really quite annoying.

like the main character energy stuff
I mean, it's nice, but it's also

like you're turning the world into
a video game plus one aura, plus

one, this, you know, minus aura.

Like, and, and it becomes very difficult
to see long term when video games are only

programmed to last for, you know, 40 to
60 hours before, uh, runtime in real life.

Like, or,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: of them are, are huge,
massive multiplayer games where

you're thinking about how you're
leveling up everything, but you're not

leveling up your blacksmithing tools.

You are leveling up your
armor, you know, and

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Amber Case: clothing is armor and this
is this and like followers is this.

where,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: a very early presentation,
I used to call it like we're just

spreadsheet animals and spreadsheet
games, you know, plus one follower,

minus follower, you know, and you
have a different ranking game.

Brad Frost: It gets into that, like
that, that performative stuff versus

like the, the actual, uh, which,
which, which gets in the way of the

real kind of connection, which is
what, what we're really hungry for.

Amber Case: Which

Brad Frost: And I think that that's,

Amber Case: you know?

Brad Frost: yeah.

Yeah.

You don't, you don't
need to quantify that.

You just need to, to feel it.

You need to live it.

And it's, it's whenever you, you
come away from, from a meal or

from a show or from any activity,
and you go, man, that was good.

It's like, that was like satisfying.

Like, I'm like, I'm glad
I hung out with my friend.

Like we had like a great time.

It's, it's that satisfaction at a very
soul level that you can only feel like you

can't, you can't properly put that into
words, but you know it when you feel it.

There is really something to this, this
kind of revenge of the real, to kind

of get people back to that outcome,
which is wildly more, I think, sort

of satisfying and healthy compared
to the, the, the weird treadmills

that we've been discussing here.

So

Amber Case: Yeah.

Well, yeah, that's the thing is, you
know, maybe she call this podcast

episode the revenge of the real.

Oh.

Brad Frost: the river, I love it.

I love it.

We got, we got it right there
in the, right there in the, uh.

In, in the, in the episode we'll make
the, the, the, the highlight reel for it

and, and spray it out into like, that's
the other, that's the other funny thing

and, uh, we kind of talked about this
before we started recording, is just

like, it's, it's like this really is about
just like having these conversations.

It's like the whole mechanics of like,
you know, productizing this or like, don't

get me wrong, I love a good, like, a lot
of times like branding and like identity

and like doing like that stuff is like
a great way, you know, calm technology

and like, I, like you need the buzz words
and that stuff can kind of like carry

these ideas like out into the world.

And I, so, so I think that there is like
real value in it, but at the same time

it is just like weird to have to do,
you know, anything that like closely

resembles if you like, you know, if
I have to do a YouTube still of be.

Amber Case: Yeah, I, I think, I think
the issue that was the YouTube still

Brad Frost: It is like, geez.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We could just screen cap that.

Amber Case: the thing is that we have to
have some meme and then it has to be, it's

very easy to take that word revenge of
the rail and turn it into something else.

Like it already got commodified
into a trend report like that was

Brad Frost: Yep,

Amber Case: right?

Brad Frost: yep, yep, yep.

Amber Case: like calm tech is
like, the misunderstandings of

it, you know, are really annoying.

It's, it's your having a

Brad Frost: I've, I've got, I've
got atomic design and I've seen

that thing show up in so many
Bizaro PowerPoint presentations

and just like all sorts of stuff.

I've seen, you know, atomic design
in the, in the blockchain, and I'm

like, like, it, it wars my mind.

But it's like, it's, it is very
fascinating because like it's, there,

there is really sort of something to,

that, that sort of.

Social delivery and interpretation
and game of telephone at, at the

end of the day, it's like, oh
yeah, like you have the original

meaning of what calm technology is.

And then it's like, but at the end
of the day, kind of like art, right?

There's the initial intention of
creating a song or, or a painting or

whatever, but it's like really at the
end of the day, it's, it is not up to

any the, the creator to say like, no,
this is how you should interpret it,

is people are going to interpret it
and, and, you know, use it, but also

perhaps even like weaponize it, right?

So there's, there's something there
that has been kind of fascinating.

I, I feel like since we last saw
each other in person, we've kind

of had our own buzzword journeys.

Amber Case: Yeah.

And, and I ended up, um, I ended up
having to trademark mine, because,

uh, there, there was a company that,
that used it incorrectly and made

a whole global campaign with it.

I was like, just because you bought
one of the companies listed on the calm

tech website doesn't mean you're entire
company is calm, or you know what it is.

Because as Cory Doc Toro says,
you know, in ification, right?

Like things

Brad Frost: yeah, yeah, yeah,

Amber Case: in some, in some sense.

but yeah, so now, because there were so
many people that are like, I'm, I'm calm

tech and I do this, and I'm like, could
you at least go through the training

first to understand what it really is?

Like?

It's about

Brad Frost: yeah, yeah, yeah,

Amber Case: about raise dots on buttons
so that you can use them in the dark.

It's about material design.

It's about not putting
blue lights everywhere.

Brad Frost: yeah.

Amber Case: so then it was like,
okay, you need to be a certification

program to quantify this, to show

Brad Frost: That's amazing.

Yeah.

Amber Case: this is protect
and this is trademarked.

And, and people, and some people
are like, I hate that word.

It's not calm, you know, what's that word?

I'm like, is there a better word for it?

Because I can't figure out
why it doesn't really matter.

It's that, you know, or CTI certified.

I don't care what it is.

We need to have something that
advocates for people to say,

here's a product that you might

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: on for more than.

Two years.

But finding

Brad Frost: Yep,

Amber Case: that, that allow, that,
that are privately held is really hard.

You know,

Brad Frost: yep.

Amber Case: resist the, the siren
call of going public and, and

getting a big chunk of cash out of
the thing that you did as a founder?

It's really hard, you know,

Brad Frost: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Amber Case: banker as a friend, you know,
it's like, I'll take it public for you.

Which is why like, you know, it
was like, I like these little

Midwest companies like Time Timer.

I love some of these emerging
companies in, in, in Norway.

As long as they don't go public or
they don't raise too much money, um,

it's almost impossible at this point.

It's like scale very slowly.

Well, who has the
patience for that anymore?

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Amber Case: when I was looking at business
models for standards bodies, it's like.

Okay, good housekeeping seal of
approval that can last a hundred years.

What about Underwriter Laboratories,
which started as at the Chicago World's

Fair as, uh, you know, in what, 1895
as a way to make sure that people

installing stuff with the new thing
called electricity wouldn't burn each

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: because
they're in a compact space.

Yeah, that's cool.

At that point, I feel like it's like
lion the witch in the wardrobe, like

the very first book, it's like there's
the fog and nobody knows what anything

is, but, but if you read the whole
series, you get happened in the beginning

becomes really big in, in the end.

And it's, it's like, you know, just
thinking about people who do, make

little small towns and cities is like,
well what do we name this street?

You know?

And that, that becomes the big
street later, you know, and, and so

it's about, you know, these little
tiny decisions that you can make

And, and you have to make them somewhere.

And I don't think any other kid that
I've ever met would say, I want to make

this, you know, certification of quality
stamp on the bottom of the product.

But that's what I wanted as a kid.

I would be playing with Sculpty Clay and
say, I want AP non-toxic certification.

I wanna make that.

and no one's going to fund that.

No one's going to say, I mean, I had
someone that said, I'll give you a

hundred K if you can automate it.

And I said, you want me
to make a clone of humans?

A a huge multisensory robot like
that would cost a hundred million.

And really we just need to have a
dog who can smell for the, you know,

or you have an x-ray spectrometer.

I mean, so the robot's gonna sleep,
uh, in a, in a controlled environment

and tell you whether it's, it's tact,
tactfully satisfying to use this

product, or we could just have a human.

But it was, it was odd where it was like.

What, what trend did you care about
10 years ago when AI wasn't a thing?

Do you even remember the crash from 1987?

Not that I remember it, I was one,
but, um, that, that, that it stumbles

over its own ambitions and fails.

It's, it's not that it's inherently
bad or good, it's that there's this

idea that, you know, a human is bad.

Like when people say bio break, and you
have said that before, it was like, so

Brad Frost: Did.

Amber Case: you are going to
take a break to be a human.

How terrible that you might need to pee
before we have this call for an hour and a

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: Like, no, like, what are you a

Brad Frost: This is,

Amber Case: Right?

Brad Frost: I, I am, that, that is the,
the one thing, you know, you, when you

do enough work in, uh, as a consultant
with, uh, kind of bigger companies, you,

you end up internalizing some things.

There's many things I've refused
to let in, but I'm just like, Been

like, okay, you're all a little
bit more buttoned up than me.

I'm not gonna just talk about
bodily functions as openly.

That's like people

Amber Case: they aren't
buttoned up behind the scenes.

No one

Brad Frost: Oh, totally,
totally, totally, totally.

I, it's, it's my look.

Like I

Amber Case: on the play, but, but I'm
like, I'll be back in five minutes.

Like, like

Brad Frost: Sure, sure.

Amber Case: you know,
I don't say bio break.

I say, I need to get some coffee.

Brad Frost: I need to get some coffee.

That's good.

Amber Case: It's gonna be five

Brad Frost: I like that.

Amber Case: You know, because

Brad Frost: I like that.

Amber Case: don't have to.

gosh.

It's just, it's these things where we're
already at a reduction of complexity when,

when we have this flat screen that we're
trying to bring ourselves to life through.

But

Brad Frost: Yep.

Amber Case: if we have a phone call,
there's actually more texture in that

because it's, it's, it's, it's auditory.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

There's a, there's a, there's
like a focusing effect almost.

Yeah.

It's, it is a

Amber Case: you know, and focus

Brad Frost: yes.

Amber Case: I mean, you've

Brad Frost: Yes, yes.

Yes.

Amber Case: that my eyes
are all over the place.

Like it's really

Brad Frost: Yep, yep, yep.

Amber Case: even though thankfully
behind you there's a lot of interesting

stuff to look at and you have a
cool sweater, you know, but like.

Oh, like I, you know, I'm trying
to just look around because my

eyes need something else to look at
because I wanna focus on your words.

Anyway, I digress.

But

Brad Frost: Yes.

Amber Case: in, in wrap up
of this podcast episode, we

covered the revenge of the real.

We covered the ability and the, the
sadness that happens when you don't

study the history of things, what people
really want, when they want community,

the sadness that happens when we're
abstract, the shipping container for

the soul on how to reconnect with
your local community, why things don't

scale, and care doesn't scale either.

What it means to be a
human today and bio breaks.

Thanks for being here.

Brad Frost: Oh man.

Can you just do that for all of these?

that's, that's the mic drop.

Let's, let's do it.

So, uh, so last question though.

Before, before, before we peel off.

'cause I, that's beautiful.

Like the only other structured question
for this podcast is, is what music would

do you want more people to know about?

Amber Case: My friend Crystal Cortez,
Q-U-A-R-T-E-Z, uh, now works at Meow

Wolf, is designer, experimental sound
designer, um, underground musician,

has several albums, which you can
listen to on Spotify or Band Camp,

I think is really cool to listen to.

Brad Frost: Be beautiful.

Amber Case: very articulate,
very interesting music also

for, um, one of her shows.

did this altar of sound where
if you lit a candle it would

trigger a different soundscape.

And if you, she also did one with
mirrors where you got close or

far away from the sensor and that
would trigger different sounds.

for the capstone course in the sound
design program at PCC in Portland where

a lot of incredible sound designers
came out of, um, you would go and

get, make your own circuit board a
little purple PCB company and you

would learn how to make circuits.

I mean, I'm always just looking
at the curriculum, like two

degrees worth of, so yeah, you

Brad Frost: Wow.

Amber Case: board design and
then you could make your own,

you know, sonic interactions.

And she also did a lot of work
with the, um, 60 channels surround,

uh, surround sound arrays.

So 60 with max MSP.

So you could, um, have this residency
program where people would come in

and bring their own soundscapes.

So.

would record completely different
things and you could experience

that with the 60 channels, um,
and feel like you were there.

So Crystal Cortez amazing, amazing
human being, um, really one to watch.

Um,

Brad Frost: I love it.

I love it.

That is phenomenal.

Yeah, there, there's, there's a lot to
pick out there and I'm going to do some

research, but yeah, I have her, uh, band
camp pulled up now and, uh, but feels like

I need to, hopefully there's some other
good some, some videos to watch or some

other things there too, so That's awesome.

Amber Case: Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I, I filmed some of those,
which were, which were fun.

Brad Frost: Amazing.

Well, well, thank you so much
for, for this has been fantastic.

Like, I, it's been a long time since
we've like seen each other in person.

We've kind of followed, like hung
out ambiently on social media kind

of over the last decade or so.

And so it's been like really cool to
just kinda see what your journey's

been and, and hear about where
your mind's at and, uh, amazing.

Amazing.

So keep keep, keep up the weird dreams.

Amber Case: Yeah, don't get demoralized
just because the of the state of things

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Amber Case: more compression and,
and less of a less of a car color

situation than when we would

Brad Frost: Take revenge, venge.

Amber Case: yeah.

Brad Frost: All right.

See ya.