Adaptability, Curiosity, & Creative Breadth with Brendan Dawes

Brad Frost: Brendann.

Brendan Dawes: Hey Brad, how are you?

Brad Frost: I'm doing great.

I'm just gonna get right into it.

What has you waking up excited these days?

Brendan Dawes: You start
with the big questions.

Uh, why are we alive?

Yeah.

Um, just the possibilities.

you know, I mean, I'm in a very
privileged position, my job is.

I work on some beautiful projects.

Most of the time I'm just doing stuff
for myself and selling my art and things.

So, each day, I guess I'm curious
to know what it's gonna hold.

And that's why I get up, because I
don't know how the day's gonna pan out.

I don't know if I'm working on
something, maybe a difficult problem,

am I gonna be able to solve it today?

Usually when you go to bed and you
wake up in the morning, you go, ha

ha, a missing semi coal on you, idiot.

Or something like that.

So I'm a very much seizing
the day living in the now so

that's what drives me really.

And like I said, I'm in a very
privileged opportunity to po position,

to work with people that are smarter
than me and more talented than me.

I can learn from them, and
that's what I want to do.

I want to, One of my favorite quotes
is Larry King, who said, I never

learned anything whilst I was talking.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: and I know I'm
gonna be talking on this thing.

So it's ironic.

But for me it's about taking
time, pausing and listening.

I wanna be present to just listen
to other people and new ideas

and be challenged on things.

So yeah that's why I, I get up,

Brad Frost: that's beautiful.

You've already covered so many things.

It sounds like you've created the
conditions by which you are able to

be directed at creative opportunity
and being comfortable with the unknown

of what comes through that process.

And to realize that brain is doing
something overnight that then allows you

to wake up the next day, do it all again,

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: And you are
listening for signals.

your own intuition and instincts,
but also through the collaborations

you have with others with different
and more complimentary skill sets.

And it's not a smarter thing,
I'm sure that they would say

the same thing, about you.

Allow that in Brendan at the very least.

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Yeah.

Maybe.

I'm just trying to improve every day,
I don't get complacent about what I'm

doing or how I'm doing it, and I just
wanna constantly learn new things.

I have this idea that there's the
things you know, which are like

this: imagine a sort of messy circle.

On the outside of that are
all the things you don't know.

And both those things are
expanding or they should expand.

The outer one is obviously
infinite, but you wanna position

yourself as a creative person.

You don't wanna be bang in the
middle of all the things you

know, that's really boring, right?

So you wanna be on the edge on that,
on the event horizon of the things

you do know and the things you don't
know, and that's constantly expanding.

That's where I position myself.

I want to do things I
don't know how to do.

I guess that's what drives me each morning
when I wake up, it's to go, okay, what can

I learn today and what don't wanna know?

The other thing is I just
encourage people to read.

Put down the pocket sadness machines
and swap that rectangle for an analog

papery one and read lots of stuff.

Fiction, nonfiction, things you
don't know about, things you

don't think you're interested in.

The more input you've got going on in
your head, the better you're gonna be

as a creative person or as a person
generally, and so I'm constantly trying

to just give myself strategies to
try and just push myself even more.

Brad Frost: You just described one of
the main reasons I wanted to talk to you.

In this moment, with the,
technology paradigm shifting

and everyone is scared shitless.

There are people like you.

I think about often who, and you
described it so well just that those

rings of where you're at, where what's
comfortable and the stuff, it being too

close to the center is that comfort.

It's not just boring, it's
risky and, and increasingly so.

Brendan Dawes: Mm.

Brad Frost: what I see a lot is a lot
of folks in that center of the circle

of what they've already known and that
is being radically disrupted right now.

What you're describing is this
process and these things that you

can do and teach yourself and train
yourself to do is to really embrace

the comfort of the unknown or get more
comfortable being uncomfortable, in

order to do useful things with it.

I come from a certain lens of creative
professional that I'm around a lot.

And I think that there's been a lot of
those, what we could you know, capital C

creativity has been just totally absent
and not encouraged for a very long time.

And it's been the, the focus has been
on the center of that known circle.

It's like, how could we you at this
thing that is known and quantifiable

and reproducible and how do we just keep
you there and, punching out the widgets.

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: And it's just it's depressing.

And that's all been burned to a
crisp, seemingly overnight and

everyone's freaking out about it.

So I think that you starting to
describe these kind of things that you

could do to start to allow that in.

Process the fear, but ultimately
harness it, move past it and get closer

to that outer edge of that circle is

Brendan Dawes: yeah, definitely.

First of all, you realize that evolution
wasn't about survival of the fittest,

Darwin, it was about adaptation.

So the thing survived 'cause
they could adapt, right?

It wasn't about who was strongest.

And and I'm summarizing that, but I've
seen it in the past where, during the

Flash days people would say I'm a Flash
designer, or certain database type things.

They were ColdFusion people or, and I
thought that thing's gonna die eventually.

And then what are you gonna call yourself?

Brad Frost: Yeah

Brendan Dawes: and so people but I just
say though, I totally get it because

for a long time, pays the bills, money
coming in, you gotta feed family.

You gotta do all that and,
and that's what you gotta do.

But things change, nothing persists.

So you've got to be able to adapt.

And if you aren't adaptable, then
you're going to struggle and then

you're gonna start to hit out on.

The changes.

So let's take, we, the reason I really
loved your, the Creative Infinite

thing you did the little, should we,
was it a talk or an essay or a thesis?

I dunno.

But it was a,

Brad Frost: I

Brendan Dawes: it was really resonated
with me because you were taking a very

curious approach to this new technology
rather than, a lot of people are just,

we're we live in a very polarized
culture now, an extreme culture where

it's black or white, there's no nuance.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: were taken

Approach of going, hang on a
minute, this thing's interesting

and we need to explore it.

There are problems.

We know there are problems, but
let's not just, throw it out on it.

So I really.

I really love that approach.

But this is nothing new, right?

With new, with technology as we all know.

There's a great book that's all
about the use of machines and music.

I'll have to dig it up.

I can't remember what the name of
it was, but it talks about how when

electric microphones were invented.

There was like headlines in newspapers
and commentary about it's cheating, right?

Which seems so insane right now,
but at the time, when you sang, you

had to project your voice, right?

Be loud and before microphones,
people like Sinatra, Billie Holiday,

Julie London, people like that, they
realize that, hang on a minute, I

could speak in a more intimate way.

So weirdly, the technology
of an electric microphone.

Made the more human.

And it was certain people who
realized that and thought, I can

work with this tool and understand
it and become an expert in it.

And that's what they did.

And of course, and then of course now we
wouldn't, you couldn't imagine, a vocal

performance not being intimate or wow.

Whoever wants to be 'cause of technology.

Brad Frost: yeah,

Brendan Dawes: So that's just one
example and there's loads like that.

So it's nothing new.

The whole AI thing.

I just don't like reactionary opinions.

It's not critical thinking.

For me it's just extremism either way.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

That's why I really resonated with what
you were saying in that video you did.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

I appreciate that.

I think you're right when new things come
along and you said the word is curiosity

to be able to be curious about something.

Well, Also I think that what we've been
talking about with AI so specifically

that I don't know was true with
previous generations of technologies.

Whether it be that flash or just
advancements of the web or some other

creative technology or music gear or
whatever it's like it is important.

'cause there's a lot of like gross
shit built into the foundations of

like how the stuff even came into

Brendan Dawes: absolutely.

Brad Frost: That is once again worth
acknowledging, and it's worth unpacking,

those aspects of it should be rejected
and unequivocally condemned and we

should figure out the ways to mitigate
the harms and offset all of that.

But at the same time, it's it is here.

And the fact that we could just kinda
pull some shit out of the ether and

have it in front of us in order to
guide or facilitate this process.

And that's just speaking creatively
that you're like talking about

the real stuff of it's yeah, okay.

Human eyes can only get so

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: at detecting certain things.

And so if you like
supercharge this stuff in

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: office, like you're
gonna save a lot more people, , so,

so you have to be able to live
in that nuanced, like gray area.

But also, I've seen you in these different
programming languages, things give a

guess at how many different languages
or like software tools, like we, we will

set aside even like the physical world.

Like a, get.

Like how many of those things have
you learned, forgotten, touched

ha has been on your computer and,

Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

Brad Frost: not been on your

Brendan Dawes: I dunno.

Yeah, 30, 40.

I dunno.

It's some of them, and by the
way, learned that's open for

interpretation, but yeah, I dunno.

30 or 40 or something.

They come and go, and then you stick
to various ones because, some of

them are just so flexible and now
they're made like all great languages.

I, you know, I still
love, I love a text file.

I think a text file is a
beautiful thing, right?

So it's that.

But the whole idea of Unix where you
can pipe a simple thing into another

thing, you have this pipe command,
which is really how a lot of sort of

node base like touch designer behind
me, the, how you'd link things up.

It really comes from that
really that thinking of.

It's just a thing that
makes texts go big, right?

And then you pipe that into another
thing, so you think in a very modular way.

So Unix really from
the off, what was that?

Where you could pipe an output
into another input and keep going.

And that is a very powerful concept.

So I've always drifted to visual
software that allows me to do that.

But the power, of course, is where
you're combining things that are

command line and then maybe some C+
or, or JavaScripts or whatever it is.

It's the power is in the
combinations of those things.

And often my projects, so I've got, this
is just, but it wasn't ready as a prop

by the way, this, I did this newspaper.

So that's my GitHub repo
for my website, right?

That's back on that, yeah.

But then what I did.

So this, I did this is like a 25th
anniversary broadsheet newspaper.

I did.

So I used my API on my website
to make a page for each project,

but it's all very abstract.

So these sculptures are made
algorithmically from the project title.

And then it, I used a local LLM to
make a haiku for each project, and

then it typographically screwed it up.

But there's about five different programs
working together to come together

to make that, and then even, I even
wrote a command line thing because

it spat out these PDFs, but because.

They had to be done in a certain way.

So the print was, the margin
was on the right side.

I then wanted to randomize it, but also
allow for it to be proper on the right

page, if so I wrote then that there was
then a command line script to actually

take all these PDFs I did and put
them in the right order, but randomly

so all those things you know, that's
just an example of five or six pieces

of software coming together to work.

Make one thing, right?

Yeah

Brad Frost: it's, that's, it is just
so demonstrative of thi this moment

because historically, you had to jump
into the fray to learn those five or

I, here's my, my

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Brad Frost: I was only showing this
earlier in, in that, that this is

like what we're talking about I

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: bit now is ah, yes,
this thing flows into this thing.

This thing flows into this thing and
this thing flows into this thing.

But then around it now is just
this thing that just goes.

I wanna do this make a newsletter
that rips this stuff down, does this

stuff, randomizes it, reassembles
it in this way, chops it up, tears

it apart again, and then sends
it to the printer and it will do

Brendan Dawes: yeah,

Brad Frost: it'll just do it.

And you're like what?

Okay.

And it'll screw it up along the way.

And that's where I think
like your deep knowledge of,

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Brad Frost: being the closer you are
to those materials, you're able to work

with them in a more sophisticated way.

And I find that stuff with
what I'm do like web stuff.

Like I'm able to speak the language a
little bit more and so it, it gets to

the end result a little bit faster.

But I notice myself.

Attempting things that I wouldn't
have otherwise dreamed of,

because it was off limits to me.

I was like no I can't do that
type of backend development.

I know enough to be dangerous,
but just even conceptually.

Less of a fear thing and more of
the, there, there ain't no time for

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: I'm now there is

just do it.

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Amazing.

You're just being more creative.

You haven't got that fear as such, and
you do learn from those processes as well.

You go, all right, that's how that works.

Let me delve into that a bit
deeper on, and that's what you do.

But you, like you said, you often have to,
if you are using AI and things, you often

have to fix these things yourself because
you think Yeah that's not gonna work.

And then, so you still
need some knowledge.

For sure.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

But above all, and I think what
you're describing 'cause like that

newspaper was that the fully formed
vision when you started the process?

Or did it over the process of doing it

Brendan Dawes: it came out.

Yeah, no, it came out of oh there's
this service, the newspaper club,

which they can print newspapers.

So the idea came from that and
I just thought, I wanna do it.

And it was 25 years last
year of having my website.

So I did a few things.

I did.

Thing that I did, a plotter sold,
I sold quite a lot of those,

but they were, you could buy one
and each one was unique to you.

And it was made off a
20, a five by five grid.

So it's 25.

Yeah.

But it generatively plotted these,
and they're always different.

That's the point.

So I did that, and then I thought
there's this newspaper thing, and

I, I could do like this kind of look
back, but rather than just doing

a, here's this project, I wanted to
create something new from a thing.

I think that the thing is as well,
because my website runs on Kirby and

it already had a backend, API that
spits out JSON of every project.

And I thought the data's there,
so you know, this beautiful thing

of interpretability, you can
just glue these things together.

JSON can talk to touch
designer and blah, blah, blah.

So it's just, and then, and then it
grew Really, it grew from there's,

there was lots of different layouts
and now I wish I'd done other

things with it, hey, it's there,

Brad Frost: that's it.

That's it.

Yeah.

It exists and it didn't before.

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Brad Frost: and it's it really
is like here's input, here's

this thing and this thing.

It's what if we just take these
two objects and glue 'em together?

Brendan Dawes: Because the thing is

Brad Frost: we do?

Brendan Dawes: web, that's a
website that, that's all from a web.

That content is all from a website content

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: It only
exists 'cause it's a website.

Brad Frost: the it's it's just like
demonstrating that true fluidity.

That I think is evasive for
people to, to understand.

In my neck of the woods, it work in the
realm of like design systems and stuff.

And often thought of and operated as a
constraining function in a lot of ways.

It,

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: like but at the same time
it's like it the way that the kind of

digital world has been built up, it
has led to this just very, again, this,

these skills are atrophied or there's not

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: to do that kind of dreaming.

And so what we see is a bunch of people
is here comes this new technology

that's taken away what people
have been doing with their hands,

assembling these things together.

Manually.

And that's what that, that's what people
like think of as their creative gifts

and that gets ripped away from them.

And it

Brendan Dawes: yeah,

Brad Frost: Crisis.

And it's it was never,
that was never your gift

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: place.

Like your your gift is your ability to

Brendan Dawes: envision it.

Yeah.

Brad Frost: of say what if?

Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: You've always gotta
remember, no AI has ever woken up

and said, I think I'll just stare
out the window for five minutes.

No AI has ever said that ever.

Because it can't, it doesn't even
know what a bloody window is, so it

doesn't even know we exist, by the way.

Doesn't even know the world exists,

Brad Frost: yeah.

Brendan Dawes: itself, I'm not
saying someone programmed it to

think that I'm saying by itself.

It is never woken up and
thought, I'll just daydream.

So you've gotta hold
onto that thought, right?

Brad Frost: If you had to tell some
of these people I've alluded to again,

I've, I've spent a lot of time just,
sweating the details of the mechanics

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Brad Frost: Of some of these things.

That there's this, that it's the narrow
focus and that's where their worth and

their value the expense of that sort of
broader like what advice you got for him.

Brendan Dawes: I dunno
if I'm the right person.

I'm coming at it from I'm not in the
the coalface, in a corporate system,

Brad Frost: yeah.

Brendan Dawes: I, that's not the
world I inhabit, so I don't, I

wouldn't deem to give them any kind
of, advice from that point of view.

We might talk about Brian Eno in a
bit, but in that film, the, one of

the lines that resonated with me was
when he was working with synthesizers

in the early days, he realized when
he was twiddling knobs and things,

'cause he says himself, he can't.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: Boards or
anything, you can't read music

or you can twiddle knobs, right?

And he said, I realized it was less
about skill and more about judgment.

And I thought, hallelujah.

That's it.

When you build like a generative system
and it's doing its thing, you think, I've

just plugged that into there and it's, and
then it does this amazing thing, right?

So you, there's a maybe you think
that's a bit of, 'cause I can bang

out this thing I've got behind me
now I can bang out a million posters

while we're sat here if you want.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Brendan Dawes: but then you,
but then there's, they're

not a million great posters.

There's like maybe two, so then
I'm using my judgment, my taste.

So I think that is the
area we're moving into.

It's about curation, it's about
judgment, it's about taste.

I think there will always be
skills needed, of course, but

a lot of that stuff is gonna be
increasingly automated for sure.

So

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: yeah you're gonna
need to have to look at what you're

doing in a more holistic way.

And like you said, Brad, maybe that,
the chaing of the, the thing is not, the

thing, it's like more of the vision thing.

But it's a difficult look, it's
a difficult one, I'm someone who

loves beautifully made shoes,
and which takes, weeks, to make.

And I like them because of the craft
that goes into them, the human crafts,

so I'm a kind of like contradiction,
with the kind of things that I love.

But right now no AI is gonna make.

Yeah.

And the thing is, shoes have
been automated, aren't they?

Most shoes are made

Brad Frost: totally,

Brendan Dawes: program, but
there's still a place I can go.

If you want to pay the money, you can
get, shoes that are made in the old way.

Brad Frost: Yep.

Brendan Dawes: so maybe it'll move
to more luxury, and you go, or this

website's been beautifully handmade,
and it's like a niche thing, yeah,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

I, yeah and in many respects that's

Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

Brad Frost: But at the same time
it could be none of those things.

It could be

Brendan Dawes: yeah,

Brad Frost: Things in all
of those things all at once.

Brendan Dawes: yeah,

Brad Frost: I think that's
that's the struggle.

I've been having this conversation
so often where it's like we're

used to, I think making these kind
of linear jumps to things, right?

Oh, here's

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Brad Frost: Steve Jobs killed Flash
no longer, but we're gonna migrate

into this canvas or just good old
fashioned web standards or, I, had

this car or traded it in for a new

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: oh, I switched from
an Android phone to an iPhone, ed.

That, that's the kinds of
things that I think that our

heads we're able to get around.

Like we get our heads

Brendan Dawes: Mm-hmm.

Brad Frost: Type of advancement, right?

The faster horses I should

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: And it's really this idea
of crossing a threshold into going no,

this isn't going from one to another one.

This is going from a one to a many thing.

And that's the thing that I think
is it's still sinking in for myself

and certainly I think for all of
us that it's just wait a minute.

Like I could, quite literally say,
I want to make a thing about Brendan

Dawes and I want you to create this as.

movie, a play,

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: a website, a, a
printed piece, like a poster a, a

series of images, a flip book, a
matchbook a and it, and you can do

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Brad Frost: And you can do it.

That still is sinking
in for me personally.

'cause I'm just like I don't, and like
you said with the generative like posters,

it's like, is any of that gonna be good?

The answer is no,

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: not.

But from that stance of the creative
infinite of just going like I

never thought that I would be
able to go near writing an opera.

No.

And I'm not going

By the way, but it's but to, but
to even just imagine that it's

oh, I now like actually have
more of a. Chance at doing that.

If that was something that was

Interesting to me

Brendan Dawes: yeah,

Brad Frost: I could pursue that in a
way that I don't know if I would be able

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

I,

Brad Frost: It's very fascinating.

Brendan Dawes: One of the things you
have to watch out for with any of this

stuff is that it's, you gotta remember,
that it's averaging everything out.

That's how it works.

It gets all this input, all
this mass massive data, and

then it creates an average.

So the stuff that it's making,
whether it's writing or making,

Brad Frost: average.

Brendan Dawes: It's just average.

It's not gonna, that said, the
thing I clinging onto is, that

when Alpha go beat Lisa doll the Go
Champion, a few years ago now, and

it beat him four out of five times.

The other one was a draw.

So what happened was there was this move,
37, I think it was in one of the games.

And it was a move that was so ridiculous.

No human being would've done it.

And it laid it down and it, and everyone
was like, what the hell this is crazy.

And it won the game.

And so that move is now
called the divine move.

That's why I, where I think the promise of
all this is things like that to suddenly

go, wha bam here's something new, right?

It's not that it beat him, it was the
fact that it threw this move down.

And so one of the commentators said, maybe
that is a promise as this technology,

maybe it can show us something new.

I think he said, that's quite exciting
along with all the, the problems.

The thing that really scared me after
that, it was Alpha zero it was called.

So AlphaGo was trained on
thousands of games, right?

Alpha Zero was given the rules
and it became the best player

of alpha of Go in 48 hours.

It was just

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Brendan Dawes: rules.

It wasn't trained on any games.

That's and no one's talking
about that's war games level.

It just went.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yep.

And that's the big divide between all of
the paradigm shifts before it, the faster

Into automobiles, right?

You had to slog through the

And put all of that infrastructure in

That takes generations.

And there's, there is, obviously
the first time somebody saw

Model T I'm sure that their minds

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Yeah.

Brad Frost: and all of that stuff.

But then the time that person saw
that model for the first time to the

time that it like really shifted the
how people live their lives there's

some pretty serious time there.

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: talking about that now
that we're unmoored from the world of

Brendan Dawes: Mm-hmm.

Brad Frost: And this stuff can
just progress on its own in this,

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: Scarily fast paced
like that, that I share that

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: you, where
you're like, wait a minute.

Like

Brendan Dawes: Whoa.

Brad Frost: the time, by
the time we're getting

Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

Brad Frost: Staring out that

Brendan Dawes: yeah, Yeah.

Brad Frost: for five minutes,
that thing just quadrupled.

It's freaking, it,

Brendan Dawes: know.

Brad Frost: extinguished

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

It's crazy.

Yeah, I know.

Brad Frost: But I also think though
this comes back to what you're

describing as far as like taste
and judgment and all of that stuff.

We need to collectively as a society
get to the what is our judgment

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: on like that kind of stuff.

And that frankly, like ultimately this
stuff can only impact society at the

pace that our brains and machinery
can do something with with it.

In certain realms you could just see
it like light years ahead, but then in

other realms, like from what's it like
enters back into the world of atoms

or the world of human systems, let's
say that's, that those are the brakes.

Perhaps.

Who the fuck

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

No.

It's it never really pans out
how you think, you know it.

If you look at, George Orwell wrote
about obviously the We Burning books

or books would be banned, but that it
was more the Als Huxley model, that

it wasn't, the books were banned.

No one wanted to read.

Brad Frost: yep,

Brendan Dawes: That was the thing.

It wasn't the government banned books.

People just didn't wanna read anymore.

And that's what's coming to pass,
depending on what survey you read.

But, and, and the cameras
aren't the government cameras.

We are our own surveillance.

That's the, so it's, it depends
which science fiction books you

read is which way it's gonna go.

It's not laid out, in
concrete, that's for sure.

Brad Frost: it does it.

What you're describing there and like
what I'm seeing with all of this and

I've described it already, I think a
couple ties of this kind of like atrophy

of creativity like, bye Bob's an art
teacher and, went to just kinda whatever

liberal arts college kind of thing.

And that stuff has been so devalued for so

Across society in general and
certainly in America, but you

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: and lots of places, right?

It's like we try to
sneak that a into stem.

It's oh we'll turn it into steam.

And it's it works half
the time, but not really.

It's and you get at what you're picking at
here and what you've said a couple times

already, which is just, freaking books and
philosophy and expression and goodness and

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: aesthetics and
it just what's it all for?

And I think that there's just been so much
of an overpowering desire to focus on the

machinery that runs an economy, right?

That it's just what's it all for?

What's it all for?

And it's absolutely.

Positively possible to create
the machine that sure does.

All of that mechanical stuff that,
makes the line go up into the

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: while also taking care of
people and while also like delivering

beauty and goodness and all of that.

I fundamentally reject any
inkling of oh it has to be this

one or the other kind of thing.

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: I don't know as the
mechanics again is going down to zero.

My hope is that it opens the door
for more of us to reconnect with the

humanities with arts, with expression,
with like with, yeah, who is it?

Is it Milton Keys?

Like some, an economists like back in like

The turn of like the
industrial revolution.

It's ah, yes, we're all gonna be
sitting here with 90% more free time

Brendan Dawes: Never.

Brad Frost: and we are going

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brad Frost: yeah, and it did pan out, but
we're in, we're at another one of those

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: And again, there's
nothing like technically stopping

that from actually being the case.

But the question is how do we create the
conditions by which we have a machine

that just prints money and takes care of
everybody and then we're able to like,

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

This is the,

Brad Frost: do all of

Brendan Dawes: it may come down
to universal income and all

those discussions and, yeah.

You need to, rip it all up
and start again, really.

But with capitalism is such a huge force.

That's the system we're in.

It, and we've seen how quickly
it can collapse very quickly.

There wasn't many things nice about
COVID, but what was surprising to

many was we didn't all go out in the
street and start killing each other.

We actually did the opposite.

We all helped each other.

Brad Frost: Yep,

Brendan Dawes: There was lots
of commentators at the time.

We were like, oh, this
is gonna be terrible.

And actually the opposite happened.

It was like, oh, hang on.

People are helping each other.

This is amazing.

So it can happen.

But and then of course we
just went back to how it was

Brad Frost: yeah.

At the end of the day,
human nature is human

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Brad Frost: and we're gonna learn
and continue learning the hard ways

Brendan Dawes: exactly.

Yeah.

Brad Frost: that will always exist.

But my hope is that there will
be more room for us to at least

contemplate a world where not everybody
struggling as, as hard as they are.

And I think that you're right.

Yeah.

Like things like, universal
basic income and like other

tactics and stuff like that.

But also just like from like a job

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: Perspective.

There is great book called Bullshit Jobs.

Brendan Dawes: No,

Brad Frost: heard of this?

Awesome.

Fantastic.

And the definition of
bullshit job is like.

A job that the person
performing that job describes as

Brendan Dawes: right?

Brad Frost: meaning

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: this job should not

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brad Frost: is, this is drudgery,
this is the bureaucrat, the person

who is processing whether or not
someone should receive welfare or not.

they're like, if, I wasn't in their
way, that would actually create the

conditions by which anybody that was
asking for that extra relief would

And so it's like my job is actually
preventing better outcomes from

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Brad Frost: And I think that there's a
whole lot of that so much of the stuff

that I witness even in and around like
the creative field, but a lot of times

the creative field through a lens of
a big machine, there's so much room

just not have it feel like such a damn
slog, how can you inject a bit of joy,

inject a bit of fun, inject a bit of
dreaming of imagination, of humanity.

Like I've got like a bass guitar
in my background here, right?

I've worked with clients who've worked
with each other for years, and they

like get on a call with me like an
outsider, and they're like, oh, like

that's a nice Rickenbacker bass.

And then I'm like, oh, you play.

And then they're, the colleagues are
like, oh, I didn't know you played.

And and it's just it's a

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: And it's and
it's because we're busy.

We're busy,

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: these things.

Look at my hands, they're busy.

Look at the toil, look at all of that.

And it's just man.

Might it

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: if we just like.

Just brought, just even move
that, turn that knob up,

twiddle that knob, Brian Eno,

Brendan Dawes: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Brad Frost: like, you know, like

5% more.

Just inject a little bit of pulse,
inject, inject a little bit of humanity,

Brendan Dawes: Absolutely.

Brad Frost: like back into the
equation and more time on our hands.

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

That's the dream.

Brad Frost: do it.

Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

We'll see how it pans out.

But it's I we've been doing some really
cool stuff and like just trying to

build like more community and stuff and
just like create more space for that.

Just just as an extension of just
trying to, it's hey, we're all gonna

do some stuff that's like useful,
like for your job, but then we're

also gonna talk about, pets and

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: funny stuff and movies

Brendan Dawes: Brilliant.

Brad Frost: the rest of it.

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: it's just,
yeah, it's a it's totally

Brendan Dawes: Cool.

Being human.

Brad Frost: all of this is possible.

Brendan Dawes: Being human basically.

Yeah,

Brad Frost: So can I tell
like the, Eno, story?

' my wife and I were watching this,
I've been trying to watch it

forever and I'm like, this damn
movie, like it's, I can't just

Brendan Dawes: Yeah

Brad Frost: ah, it's like these
screenings and like these theaters

and these cities that I don't live in.

I'm in Pittsburgh . And I'm like, ah.

And so it like finally popped up
where oh yeah, I could rent it.

So my wife and I were watching
it and and just incredible.

Just utterly incredible.

And it's just, hitting
all of my boxes and stuff.

So I'm just like freaking bawling the end.

It's yeah, directed.

Directed by Gary and then there's this
and then I can't remember what your

credit was, but it's I saw your name jump
out on the screen and I like screamed

Brendan Dawes: yeah,

Brad Frost: It's like, what?

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Yeah.

I, I was,

Brad Frost: That is so cool.

Brendan Dawes: yeah, it was like
five years of my life, really.

And it's still, me and Gary have
a company off the back of that

now, and we're working on loads
of really amazing projects.

But yeah, it was, I was I did, I
basically made the software that,

so the film is different every time.

And we did that, we started it in 2019.

I've known Gary since 2007.

I met him at, South by Southwest.

We were on a panel together and through
a mutual friend and, became friends

and we always wanted to work together.

And we, discussed various things over
the years, but I think in 2019 he

emailed me to say, I've got this idea
for a film that is never the same twice.

It had nothing to do with Brian
Eno, by the way, at this point.

And he said, do you think it's possible?

And I said yeah, don't
know how, but let's try it.

So we used it just on the
film about Dieter Rams, the

industrial designer, legend and

Brad Frost: Which is

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Bit more serious vibe on that one.

So we were using that footage
and trying to make a system

that, made a film dynamically.

And then, and of course Brian Eno had
done the soundtrack for that movie.

So Gary had gone to Brian and said.

Can we do a documentary?

No one's done a proper full
feature length documentary.

Come, can I do one on you?

And he just said, no, right?

He said, I'm not, he
said, I'm not interested.

I don't wanna talk about the
past, or, that kinda stuff.

So Gary went away and then he came
to me and with this idea, and then as

we were developing it, Gary said, I
want to take this to Eno and show him

and see if he'll do the documentary.

So we did a demo and he had a
meeting with Brian in the UK and he

just said, yeah, this is amazing.

This is the kind of
thing that I want to do.

It's 'cause there's not one
story Is there a person?

Then COVID hit but we're starting to
get in the footage together and yeah.

And it was, yeah, it was, and it came out.

Sundance in 2024.

It premiered there in January, 2024.

I'd never been to Sundance.

I actually tell I had once
done an installation there,

but never shown a film there.

Yeah, it was amazing.

It was mind blowing.

We actually opened Sundance that year.

And then it was just a year of
touring it around the world.

And eventually we would do it live.

We contacted Teenage Engineering
in Sweden and they built a machine

for it with my software in it.

And that was amazing.

Premiered all over the world, and
traveled, Gary went everywhere.

I did the New York one and
just a lot of European ones.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: did it live, so we
generated the film in real time.

So we didn't know what was gonna happen.

And yeah, we had just amazing adventure
really for, and then of course it

all culminated in, it was shortlisted
for an Academy award, we didn't make

the final, nominations, but we were
in the last 15, which was amazing.

So yeah, it was crazy.

And now it's gone on.

We now, me and Gary now have a
company, Anamorph, and we're working

on projects that I'm not allowed
to tell you what they are, but

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: The like's huge.

We got it when it all came out, we.

Everyone was writing about us.

We got inundated with projects
and, some, really some, just,

Brad Frost: Shit ones.

Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: yeah,
just like really weird.

And we only wanted to work on stuff.

We wanted to, made us
get up in the morning.

So that's,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Brendan Dawes: and that's
where we're at now.

You're working on these various projects,
which you'll eventually see, but so

a lot of my time is spent doing that.

But yeah, no, it's been cool.

One of the lessons is you just
don't know who you're gonna

meet and where it's gonna go.

I met Gary at South by, but it took
12 years for something to happen.

When I've been on these premiers
and I, we're at the Barkin, sold

out 2000 C theater, I'm on stage
with Brian Eno, i'm thinking.

How is this what is going on?

This is nuts.

And I, so it's been fun.

It's been really amazing.

Yeah.

And also the reaction like you to
the film is the real reward from it,

Brad Frost: oh, there there's like my
genuine reaction to the effects of the

film, but then to, testament to what you
just said, it's I'm like, I know Brendann.

I've I've watched the Super Bowl with you.

I've had beers with you,

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: in the uk like many years ago.

And it's we've had conversations.

I know that guy.

It's amazing.

You touched on why the enduring
legacy of the web, right?

And this is something that I've been
like really eager and keen to, to remind

people of, and South by Southwest was
right like this, that the web in embodied

form, at least for many years, right?

Before, it kinda the QR code business

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: Took over.

But the, that spirit, right?

Is that ultimately here are human
beings scattered across the globe.

People with ideas, people with
complimentary skill sets, people

that are all and interested and
curious to do interesting work.

And you get together in person and
you're like, they're freaking great.

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: a blast.

That was a lot of fun.

Let's keep in touch and then forward,
there's something really potent.

That I don't think was quite as
possible before the advent of the web.

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

No, you're right.

It was

Yeah, absolutely it was the whole
flash scene, and a lot of the people

that were in that scene, they've
gone on to do other companies.

They're now, embedded in huge companies
and they've gone on to do other things,

Brad Frost: yeah,

Brendan Dawes: That time when you think
back at it, it wasn't about money.

It was just about trying to make
cool stuff and see where it can go.

And the same with the web
industry exactly the same.

It was we were experimenting with, all
the crazy websites and, but also, like

you said, when you got together at, I
remember like the first Flash conference

and my, it was blowing my mind that
there was these people that I'd only

knew as usernames, and suddenly you're
in a bar with them, or, you are having

these conversations and you realize
that they're really cool and and you

wanna hang out with them and stuff.

And then you come back home and
you're deflated and you get that

post-conference guard, I just
wanna be at South by all the time.

But yeah.

I think it was like a
renaissance for sure.

I'm sure that's what Paris felt like
in the thirties or whatever it was like

that, but it was just more distributed,
it wasn't about a physical city.

'cause I didn't even live in
London, and I still don't.

That's the beauty of the web.

But, I've had emails, I'm
sure you get emails as well.

People don't know where you are.

I've had emails from people
who think I'm 18-year-old and

live in New York or something.

It's because no, you're
anonymous, aren't you?

You're just a username or you are
just a website and I look you up.

But that's one of the great

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: it.

But the other thing I would
say though is that you've gotta

embrace those possibilities.

I could have said to Gary, yeah, I dunno.

Gary, I'm not sure.

It sounds a bit weird and I'm a
bit busy, it's like I just replied.

Yes.

Like immediately, he's just, and

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: I didn't even think whether
it was possible didn't care, to be honest.

I was like, there's gotta
be some way of doing this.

And it's always fascinating, isn't it?

I was thinking about this every day and I
think it's like anything where something

is built off a, I imagine architects is
like the, just blows your mind when you're

stood like, and there's a building and Oh.

Especially when it's being made and
thousands of people are hammering

away in a building and you think, God,

Brad Frost: Yeah

Brendan Dawes: that
started out as a sketch or

Brad Frost: yeah,

Brendan Dawes: now this.

Brad Frost: yeah.

That was

Shower

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: Those kind of things.

And the same with whether you,
the websites you've built or.

They've all just started the
conversation or an email.

So it's the same thing.

So that still continually blows my mind.

It's like, how did we get here?

And then here's the other thing as well.

People look at the thing you've
made as like this thing, right?

This giant.

And it's got all these moving parts.

So quite rightly they
go how did you do this?

And you of course you didn't just
go blah, you, it just appeared.

And maybe, we've just been talking about
you probably can do that these days.

But it took, there was a all little
parts that get joined together that,

Brad Frost: Yes.

Brendan Dawes: it's not like you
just go make a generative film.

It's

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: But I get why people, they
just see the entire thing, don't they?

They don't see all the
parts, that, that make it.

But yeah.

Brad Frost: I think like what you're
touching on there and what you

said earlier about how these new
tools are averages and that time

Is it is the way out of

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: I think effectively.

It is like the time plus
craft, plus judgement

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: other

Brendan Dawes: And also people as well.

Were collaborating.

Yeah.

Brad Frost: well, Yeah.

You invoking like teenage, so
you're already fully stacked

and that it's like sure.

Let's pull it, those

Could you talk a little bit about
that sort of creative collaboration,

especially across different mediums,
across different intellectual planes

and levels of deep expertise that.

No doubt.

There's, you're all sh showing
up with a great deal of respect

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: for one another.

Like how does that play out
in an actual partnership?

'cause you're all ostensibly in the muck

Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

Brad Frost: And it's like trying
to learn, feel each other out

Honor their expertise,
but also play your part.

Can you speak

Brendan Dawes: Sure.

Yeah.

I think first of all, you
don't wanna be surrounded by

people who just agree with you.

'cause you, that's just
a terrible position.

That's just sicker.

Fancy and we've seen the guy in the white.

Yeah.

Brad Frost: does?

Brendan Dawes: See what that guess is.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Brad Frost: we all know where that

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

So you wanna be challenged
and you want people to push

you that you are working with.

I think that's one of the
core things of collaboration.

But from my point of view,
I want 'em to be good.

I don't want to worry about whether
they can do it, and that is, that, that

doesn't mean that you, that doesn't
mean you don't want, room for failure.

You absolutely do.

I'm not saying that, but you want
people to know what they're doing.

And you're trying to work with
people who are at the top of the game

because then you learn things as well.

But I find with a collaborative
process, yeah, you have disagreements,

but if you respect each other, you
don't take those things personally.

Oftentimes you think, God,
I don't agree with that.

And then, a day later going,
yeah, they were right.

Now I think about it because.

What they're doing is they're giving
you a different lens to see something.

You've got your lens and it's, and your
biases and you're often so locked in

on, it's gotta be blue, it's gotta be
blue, it's not gonna be any other color.

And then they go, have we tried it pink?

And you're, what are
you talking about, man?

And then you go and you go,
actually that looks quite good.

So things, yeah, but also you
realize that there can be a lot

of great problem solving, we have
a lot of things to fix and solve.

And I love just discussing with
intelligent, clever people.

You just get into the weeds of it
and it's, oh God, it's so good.

It's and you're just,
you're not making anything.

You're just talking about the detail.

The detail of it.

It's the thing.

Charles Eames had this thing,
like the detail isn't just the

detail, it makes the product.

Which I'm sure we've all heard
before, but all these details matter.

And when you start discussing
those things with other people

like that, oh, it's just the best.

It's just,

Brad Frost: yeah

Brendan Dawes: as I'm sure you know,
Eno and I know your stuff Oh with,

with and all that stuff is amazing.

I think it just comes from a point
of respect, but you also have a

shared vision, so that's important.

If you all have different, might,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: I think it
should be this and that.

You still have to have the central goal.

I think you have to have an
emotional compass to head to.

If you're not all going there, then you
get mutiny and then things fall apart,

which is why companies break apart
and startups fail and stuff like that.

'cause often the founders
go, I didn't want this.

and the relationship side, over time you
learn each other's habits, idiosyncrasies.

We were doing a thing in Venice, me
and Gary, before the film came out.

It was another installation we did
and we were sharing, a place in

Venice and Gary got up, breakfast and
he walked past my room and he went.

Have you made your bed?

I went, yeah, of course.

Have.

And so that was like, for me
I'm very organized, right?

So I have to I have to, I
can't work without shoes on.

That's just me, right?

I'm weird.

But, and Gary's not like that, right?

So he just gets up and gets on
with it, or I'm like getting

the corner straight and Yeah.

But his desktop is like
an explosion has gone off.

Yeah.

In an icon factory.

And I'm like, oh my God.

And when he opens his laptop, he says,
now don't look, but that it works for him.

And that's his process.

It works.

My process is not that I'm very
organized, so in, in that kind

Brad Frost: And then in between
is the marriage, is the,

Brendan Dawes: you need.

Yeah,

Brad Frost: is the,

Brendan Dawes: you've got the tension
between the two and you need that.

I'm like, here, and he is there,
we still have the same goal,

but we work in different ways,
but then it comes together, so

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: I think
you need that tension.

Brad Frost: I think so.

I'm also curious 'cause because you
did also say at, maybe even at the

top, you're like, oh yeah I do a fair
amount of things like that are on my

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: So you're still
able to exercise your full.

Instincts and just operate
like without really any

But then there are other moments
where that friction is welcome

and helps you grow as well.

And I like I see that a lot playing music.

There's just so much that is
just I need to just, I just

need to go I will just get to

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: play.

And that's that is that
and that is the act.

And that is like what my body, my soul is
just like, you need to do this now, do it.

And then I do it and I'm
like, that, that was needed.

And then there's playing with other people

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: at that, that
relationship that you're describing.

And those are where you go.

I would've never a million
years played this on my own.

In no universe would I have
gotten anywhere close to this.

I specifically remember one time I, I
have these like, start calling the frosty

nights where we just local musicians,
some friends that we met, just good people

come over to my basement and we just like,

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: session.

That's it.

That's the entire night there.

There's no agenda.

There's just come over,
we're playing music.

And I'll never forget, like it was the
first one of those that we did, and

I was like, behind the drum kit and
usually my brothers playing drums, but I

was playing drums and I was like, what?

though don't, I didn't know
I could do this first of

Brendan Dawes: Right.

Brad Frost: second of all, this
is so not my style at all, but it

worked, but it freaking worked.

And I was like, oh, that was.

That was amazing.

And then you, and then that's
something you suddenly know about

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You go somewhere,

Brad Frost: take that back into

Brendan Dawes: yeah,

Brad Frost: your own

Brendan Dawes: absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, that's it.

That's one of the great things
they show you, like I said, it's

a different lens to see things
and you go, oh, that's quite cool.

That's less, less, like you say.

I'll have a bit of that.

Yeah, why not?

Yeah, so yeah.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

And I always understood the real
sentiment behind "great artists steal"

like I, I get it, but it's like I
still like I've just still never liked

that terminology for it, it really is,
it's a transmission, it's a sharing.

It's a continuation

Brendan Dawes: yeah,

Brad Frost: versus a theft.

It's, it is a. Like it
feels additive rather than,

Something is being taken

Brendan Dawes: yeah, the steal thing
suggests that you're gonna use it

verbatim and you don't do that, do you?

Inspiration it.

Brad Frost: You can't,
you're a different mind.

You're a different

Brendan Dawes: exactly.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: fuzzy.

I think, inspiration, it goes in
your head, but the memory of it is

clouded and then all these other
things stick onto it, which is you.

And your own idiosyncrasies and it comes
out, but somewhere in there is the,

that thing you saw, yeah, for sure.

Brad Frost: That's beautiful.

Have you ever been upset by
someone commodifying your

Brendan Dawes: No,

Brad Frost: like doing anything?

Brendan Dawes: I get a lot of, quite
a few times a year I get, like when

I did the Cinema Redux thing, which
was the movie, and it was the rows

of a 60 frames a sec, 60 frames, and
it's, each row is one minute of film

time and it does the entire film.

And that was really successful for me.

Brad Frost: So

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

But people, the thing is with
that, it, you could code it

in five minutes less with ai.

So it, it was dead simple.

Which was one of the points of it, really.

But the other point was
the data wasn't abstracted.

What you saw was the data,
which someone pointed out to me.

And afterwards I was like, oh yeah.

But anyway but people do copy
it, and I get emails from, oh,

this guy's, he's ripped you off.

And I go, yeah I've I've put
that idea out into the world.

It's done really well for me.

It's made me money.

It's led to lots of opportunities, let
them, I think it's dangerous if you hold

onto one idea and think this is mine

Brad Frost: yeah,

Brendan Dawes: I'm gonna
sue anyone who comes at me.

Obviously you need patents for, if
you've got a company and those kind of

things that they're commercial decisions.

But with art and stuff, it's,
where do you draw the line?

'Cause someone could say to me, doing
sequence of images was done, blah, blah.

I don't know,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Brendan Dawes: was, but yeah, so I
don, I don't, I just write back to

these people and go, oh it's fine.

Don't worry.

Let them play with it, it's
it's not rocket science.

You hope so?

Brad Frost: No it's, there is, there
just becomes like a declarative

fact that it's I made this.

I put this out into

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: I shared this end of
story, and then what happens afterwards

is not really my business, right?

And, and I've received a lot of
emails over the years on like

a methodology around things.

So I've had like now 13 plus
years of emails challenging

that or better alternatives

Brendan Dawes: Right.

Brad Frost: Saying this is an
original and this isn't whatever.

And it's just and you just learn how to
just get comfortable going yes like,.

But I think that you're right.

I see the people being
precious about whether

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Brad Frost: and it's this is the thing
and it's I'm be proud of that thing.

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: proud of the work
that you do and that thing, be

proud of your your expertise, but
know that you're a lot bigger.

That and

Brendan Dawes: absolutely.

Yeah,

Brad Frost: This stuff is a transmission
and it's a, it's an additive and growing

and contributing in these layers of just
everything sitting on top of each other.

You don't get that if
you clutch your pearls.

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Absolutely.

Brad Frost: you try to

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Own it.

Brad Frost: go, cease
and desist letters and

It's get o get

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Exactly.

Because the other thing is and also
you should be thinking of other ideas.

You, if you are just
holding onto that one idea.

Brad Frost: that's it.

That's just it.

Yeah, it's it's just,

Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

Brad Frost: it, that's it.

To invoke Brian Eno.

It's I don't wanna, I don't want to

Look

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Brad Frost: I think is really
funny to, come back to that.

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: I think
that, that's fascinating.

It's a commendable position.

And I understand the idea of I don't
wanna like necessarily be the one in the

limelight or whatever or to go backwards.

But you also, that beginning
of our conversation talked

about this thing the microphone

And talked to my power, Rebecca
Garza Borman who amongst other

things made like YouTube's logo.

Brendan Dawes: Wow.

Brad Frost: But she and her
husband are amazing musicians.

And she talked about just as stuck with
me and I think about it a lot whenever

I'm recording is she's just like, my
grandkids will know what I sounded like,

What I exist, like what that I existed.

They would, they will know, they'll
be able to connect me through that.

Like for someone as, as amazing as Brian
Eno to be able to encapsulate at least

that and then that could then serve
as the creative like launchpad for.

So many people

Brendan Dawes: yeah,

Brad Frost: that's, That's why you
look backwards or that's why you

like, spend the time to do that.

That archival is like, how do you
put it in, into a vessel that can

continue just like the generative

Brendan Dawes: yeah,

Brad Frost: Its itself

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Absolutely.

Brad Frost: To give

Brendan Dawes: Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's the idea.

I don't think we'll ever stop making
versions of it, so it's gonna run and run.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brad Frost: You shouldn't.

Brendan Dawes: constantly
adding footage to it yeah.

Brad Frost: So

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: It's so cool.

How many projects do you have that are
like humming along or do you like run

them for a stretch and then stop them?

Like generative projects?

Brendan Dawes: Separate projects probably
right now there is four or five that we're

working on outside of my own art practice.

So I've got a solo show coming
up at the end of the year.

I've just got an email about another
one that I'm with the same gallery

that I'm, a group show that I've
been invited to be part of, so

I need to do something for that.

Yeah but the bigger projects,
probably about four or five.

Brad Frost: Amazing.

Brendan Dawes: a few others that
we're talking about, but they're

all very different to each other,

Brad Frost: yeah.

Could you speak a little bit to that.

You're describing a breadth, right?

There's like creative depth and
expertise, but that there's like

breadth and you're like just touching
all of the these different mediums.

Do you feel like you grew into that?

Or did you always just go I'm just
gonna make stuff and I, like it's

going to show up in many different ways

many different formats and outputs.

Brendan Dawes: yeah, it wasn't planned.

Let, there was no strategy.

It was only because I didn't
know what I wanted to do.

When I. I left school.

I didn't go to college or university
or, and I became a photographer for a

while because my dad was a photographer.

So I got a job

At, in new, in the newspaper.

And then I was already learning
how to code I a Sinclair's

ZX 81, in the eighties.

And that's what taught me how
to code or I taught myself.

And then I did a sound engineering course.

And because, at the time computers
were just coming in, Cubase and AKAI

samplers, the mono samplers, the S
1000, things like that, the Mc 2 0 2,

Roland and all those kind of things.

They were just really starting to happen.

And I was like, I can program computers
and I like computers, so now let's

use a computer to make some music.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: I, got a record contract
and put out like three singles during the

rave scene and all that kind of stuff.

But at that, at the time I
wasn't earning any money, so

I got a job in a factory just making
circuit boards, for, and I was

there for eight years till I was 29.

So I was really, struggling to
make a career in anything really.

I thought, I'm just gonna be in this

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: rest of my life.

And then this amazing thing called
the Web came along this, so this is 96

when I found it, and I just rang up a
local web design company that had just

appeared it was about 30 miles away.

They just took me on as a chance,
'cause I could do a bit of

this thing called JavaScript.

I ended up becoming
the art director there.

'Cause I was into graphic design,
discovered this thing called Photoshop.

But it was all 'cause of, computers.

So I left the factory and
took like a 50% drop in wages.

'cause, 'cause I have
an amazing wife, Lisa.

She was like, this is your
way outta the factory.

You gotta go for it.

And then, yeah, and then the
rest is history kind of thing.

But yeah I guess it comes from
the different mediums thing.

It's just, I love art forms in different,
you know, I love, I love a book.

I love cinema.

I love music, I love, so why can't I,
manifest these things in different ways.

The thing is, a lot of the stuff
that I do now, it all starts from.

A digital thing, but as you've seen it
becomes a newspaper or it becomes a,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: It could be a vinyl
record, it could be a print, it

could be a feature film, so yeah, I
think I just get bored quite quick.

Even though I do want to go
deep on stuff that is very true.

But I'm just curious as to go, what
if we did a book, or, what if we did a

book where the cover is different every
time, or, what if we curate a show in

New York at the end of the year what if
that the show could change every day?

How'd you do, how'd you do that?

Brad Frost: How do you do

Brendan Dawes: is it possible?

Yeah.

So you know what?

You just ask yourself
questions, don't you?

That's what you do

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: know.

Brad Frost: Thank you for sharing

Brendan Dawes: All right.

Brad Frost: think, I think that journey,
especially like the fact that it

wasn't like, ah, yes, just right off.

To the races in the creative professions.

But I'm sure all the while like tinkering
in the background, but that ability to be

like computer general purpose technology,
could point it at different things.

Oh, here's music could do that.

By that it's like, ah here's websites.

There's that.

And it's that transferable knowledge
that once you do that once or

twice, then you're like, oh, okay.

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: To do

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: For me it took a while

'cause I did go deep into a
realm and I continue to feel that

gravitational pull of, this is what
people expect of me or this is this

thing and it's the thing that's,
feeding my family and the rest of it.

And so even though I have these
interests, I would not allow myself to,

to fully act on it or embrace it fully.

Brendan Dawes: And is that a
decision that makes you happy or not?

Brad Frost: I will say that I'm now
in a place that is maybe a little

closer to what you've been describing

Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

Brad Frost: For the longest time,
I wouldn't dare call myself an

It's aside from just being, doing
that stuff on the side and for

fun, I didn't go to art school

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Brad Frost: in my, In my level of
like deep expertise I didn't feel that

imposter syndrome, but I was like, even
being a musician, I'm like yeah, I like

play music, but I don't know if I would
really call myself a proper musician or

a proper artist or a proper whatever.

Allow myself all of that stuff, all of

Brendan Dawes: Right.

Brad Frost: The other vast creative
landscape in, because I was

like I am this and the path has
kind of, led me down this road

Brendan Dawes: yeah,

Brad Frost: Kind of at
the expense of the others.

But just now, as in two days ago I'm
no longer gonna be doing client work

the digital realm anymore, which
does, it just opens the door too

Brendan Dawes: Wow.

Brad Frost: to

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: what can

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

So to hear you just describing your
path to just allowing it all in

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Yeah.

And there is, reality

Brad Frost: Helpful.

Brendan Dawes: In course it does,
like I said at the time, I had to be

able to buy a house and, get married.

And so I took a really terrible job,
that I did for, I thought I was gonna be

there a week and I was there eight years.

You, as long as you don't lose that
thought of, I'm gonna get out of here.

And the thing was when I left that
factory, I still remember this moment.

I, left and on the foreman, it was,
I'd been working with for years.

All he said to me was, you'll be back.

That's all he said to me.

Not even in a,

Brad Frost: sounds

That sounds like the most like British

Brendan Dawes: yeah,

Brad Frost: uh, factory

stereotype I've ever.

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

And I was just like, okay and
of course, but you know what

there's a bit of me sometimes
where I have a false memory going.

Did I go back?

And of course sometimes I
have to ask, did I go back?

And they went, no, but there's like a
false memory start in there somewhere

of I think I did go back there.

I didn't, but yeah, so because, it was
just that, born from jealousy or whatever,

or God, someone's got out of here rather
than going, good luck, you just said that.

But anyway, but so you just you and
that, that would then drive you on

to go I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this.

But yeah, a lot of my stuff has
been, I always say it's predicated

on the generosity of others,
people have given me chances.

Whether it's oh, they've given me a room
so I could attend a conference in New

York or speak at that conference, I could
room with them, or, things like that.

Yeah, you've always gotta be and then
you try and, give that back, and try and,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: Help people when
you're in that position to do

but there was no plan as such.

Yeah, for sure.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yeah.

And again, getting
comfortable with that idea.

'cause at the end of the day, so many
people are like, that person's got it all

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: And it's

Brendan Dawes: No,

Brad Frost: dude, every, everybody

Brendan Dawes: yeah, absolutely.

Brad Frost: winging it
at the end of the day.

Brendan Dawes: You're right.

Brad Frost: You do, you just

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: Get comfortable with
that discomfort and just go forward,

let the curiosity guide you.

But also at a personal level, let
yourself be your full self and to not

go, we'd love to do the this, you know,

Brendan Dawes: Yeah,

Brad Frost: a through Z
but, know, do duty calls.

Again that's

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Brad Frost: but that doesn't
mean that you actually shut

Brendan Dawes: no.

Brad Frost: it might mean that it's
like on ice or it might mean that's

not what you're gonna be doing for a
living or but there's a big difference

between going, ah, yeah, I can't

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

Brad Frost: there, I can't
prioritize that right now.

But don't like fully chop

Brendan Dawes: No, definitely

Brad Frost: I

Brendan Dawes: not.

Brad Frost: think that

Idea.

Brendan Dawes: I agree.

Yeah.

Brad Frost: Brendan, this
has been awesome, man.

Thank

Brendan Dawes: Oh,

Brad Frost: so

Brendan Dawes: you.

Brad Frost: For taking the time.

I've been thinking about you so much.

Like, Before even the Eno movie, I've been
thinking about you in this moment in time,

like that fluidity between, stitching the
different mediums and the different things

together in like cool and creative ways,
and like ending up with oh man, yeah.

Oh, that works like that.

That shouldn't work.

But that freaking works.

That's amazing.

Brendan Dawes: Thank you.

Brad Frost: As it's all
been just these, yeah.

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Yeah.

Brad Frost: one thing up to
another, I'm like, oh, Brendan.

So by the time I had that moment
watching the film, I was just

like, oh my God, we gotta catch up.

Brendan Dawes: Oh, thank you.

It's been an absolute pleasure and it's
great to hear, the stuff you are doing

and the stuff you're putting out there
and the thinking, I think it's great.

So keep it coming man.

Brad Frost: Thank you.

Thank you.

Plenty of inspiration to

So you keep doing your things.

I'm looking forward to, to see you.

Screaming at the next

or, whatever's to come.

Or maybe the robot that comes to

Brendan Dawes: yeah, Yeah.

Brad Frost: uh,

Brendan Dawes: I have my face on.

Brad Frost: on it.

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: So the only structure to the
show is just the first question and this

one, which is what music would you love
more people to, to know about to listen

Brendan Dawes: Okay.

I've got some vinyl just here, right?

So should I plug

Brad Frost: please.

Brendan Dawes: Okay.

So let me just, I grab a
load, see what we've got.

Loads of Pro Train, right?

Okay.

It's probably the Best Jam
album, the Sound Effect.

Sound Effects by the Jam.

Brad Frost: Okay.

Brendan Dawes: Paul Weller and on the
is start, and that's Entertainment,

probably the best, couple of the
best songs that Jam ever did.

These are all like, I'm not gonna
give you any new stuff, by the way.

So Human League Dare.

Yeah.

Brad Frost: Hell, oh man.

Figured

Brendan Dawes: So Sound of the Crowd still
one of the best songs I've ever love.

Action fleet with Matt, get Out.

I don't know why that's in there.

No, it's good.

James Brown.

So this is the one with funky drummer
on it as you, I no doubt know.

But that is quite a hard
album to get a hold of, right?

What else have I got?

I've got one that came today, so I
try and buy the original pressing.

And I've got a very eclectic taste.

So I've got like Sister
Sledge, we, our family.

This is the one with he's the
greatest dancer, probably the

best dance record ever made.

The worst dance record ever made is,
how Will I Know By Whitney Houston?

That's a pile of dog shit.

So anyway and then, ha, so I've also
got, now let's talk more British bands.

Suede Dog, man, star.

This is the masterpiece.

That's a masterpiece.

So that's the best album suede ever made.

I'm ruining the order of these
order these albums, by the way.

The best print, my favorite print.

Brad Frost: how do you
usually have a ordered?

Brendan Dawes: I have
them ordered by artist.

So I have it all in Discogs 'cause I'm a
geek and I have, and then it gives me the

order and the the one of the best album.

Yeah.

I Wanna Be A Lover is an amazing,

Brad Frost: that's what, all princes.

I think that he really.

Underscores the point of being
able to embrace new technology

Just master it and the art is enhanced by

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

He was, I just,

Brad Frost: it.

Brendan Dawes: He wrote it, produced
it, played it, all his, it's just,

Brad Frost: stunning.

Brendan Dawes: bogles my mind.

But yeah.

So that's some of, see if there's anything
else that's particularly interesting.

Yeah.

Talking Head remain.

Oh, I got a, got a shout out, aren't we?

The undertones.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Brendan Dawes: first album, and this
has got all the amazing songs on it.

Jimmy stuff like that.

It hasn't got Teenage Kicks, so Teenage
Kicks came out as a single, and then

they put it on the album after it.

But yeah, so anyway,
bit of geeky trivia that

Brad Frost: you, did you
have to play it cool?

Like how did you play it with Brian Eno?

Just from a, someone
who really appreciates

It's you got the records on the shelf.

Like how did you, how did that go?

Were

Brendan Dawes: yeah.

No, we didn't really
talk about music as such.

I was kind slightly in awe of
him, but we just talked as normal

people, we were just yeah, and
he's just, he's such a lovely guy.

He is just very down to earth.

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Brendan Dawes: a lot of these
people are, it's usually the people

around them that are not great.

Brad Frost: yeah.

That's right.

Once those kind of like walls come
up that imbalance that gets in the

Of the collaboration.

I think especially it's, it is
if you're able to like, translate

it into like the respect that
doesn't even need to be spoken

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: then you're
just able to get on with

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: So

Brendan Dawes: Definitely.

Brad Frost: that's freaking awesome.

Oh, amazing.

All right.

Dude, thank you so much for that tour
and for the system behind the tour.

That's and I guess like the last thing
is if people wanna follow along with you,

like where's the best place that you're

Brendan Dawes: Yeah.

Brad Frost: that you're most active?

Brendan Dawes: I have I update
my blog pretty much every week.

So I write up what I'm doing.

I try and some weeks I miss, but like
you, I try and keep my website, it's my

own no one can tell me what to write.

It's just mine and no one can turn it off.

So it's really important.

Everyone should have their own
website, so it's very important.

Um, So there, brendandawes.com,
but also just brendandawes

all one word on Instagram.

Follow me there.

'cause I constantly post experiments and
stuff and blue sky come on there as well.

So yeah, those are the main things.

Brad Frost: beautiful.

Awesome.

Brendann, I can't thank
you enough for talking.

This has been like an
absolute treat, so thank you.

Brendan Dawes: Pleasure.

The pleasure's been all been
mine and thanks for inviting me.

I saw the one with Marc and I was like,
I'd love to do that one with Brad.

'cause it's such a
great conversationalist.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm glad we got to do it, man.

Brad Frost: Appreciate it.

Thank you and thanks everybody
for listed, so take care.