Designing a Life That Excites You with Christine Vallaure

Brad Frost: Welcome to Wake Up.

Excited, a podcast about living an
exuberant, creative, and fulfilling life.

I'm Brad Frost, and in this episode I'm
gonna be talking with Christine Vallaure.

Christine is a designer, speaker
and a founder of Moon Learning,

an online learning platform
for UI and product design.

She's also the author of the book
Solo, A Practical Guide to Building

and Running a Digital Product
Company as a Company of One.

I first met Christine at a conference and
immediately felt like I knew her forever.

Christine is a rare breed,
highly ambitious, yet also really

grounded, human, and humble.

As you'll find out, she cares a lot
about work, but also a lot about life

in equal measure, and her love for her
family is really, really inspiring.

In our conversation.

we talk about how a good day
is one that achieves a balance.

We talk about agency autonomy and
matching your personal style to

the work and activities you pursue.

We talk about the difference
between ambition and competition.

We talk about finding fulfillment in the
work itself rather than the promise of

future goals, and we talk about finding
your niche and finding your people.

Before we get into the episode, I'd
love to remind you that wake up excited

is a totally self-funded affair.

So if you want to support me, support
the show, support my family, and

support my other work, I'd love it if
you checked out our online courses.

We have online courses about digital
design, development and design systems.

Right now we're creating a super
exciting online course called AI in

Design Systems, where we detail how
to use the sturdy infrastructure

of a design system in conjunction
with the generative powers of AI in

order to make great digital products.

You could check out our online
courses at bradfrost.com/courses

and you could use the code.

Wake up.

Excited to get 15% off.

All right, without any further ado, here's
my conversation with Christine Vallaure.

hello, Christine.

I'm so excited you are here.

And, uh, let's just dig right in.

What have you been waking
up excited about recently?

Christine Vallaure: it is actually
quite boring because it's, it is

not like a big event or something.

It's usually like if my day
flows, if I manage to put

everything in my day that I enjoy.

So it's like, I like doing my sports.

I like seeing my friends.

I like hanging with my kids
with my partner and do my work.

And, uh, yeah, if that
works, that's usually, that's

usually when I'm like best.

But it's a tricky one, huh?

It's not that Easys.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

just like, if there's a day that almost
sounds like has this really healthy

balance, you're like, heck yeah.

Christine Vallaure: Yeah, I think it
just feels, it's really nice because

then you have like everything, you know,
it's when things go sideways, it's when

I've been working too much or when I've
only been with the kids or when I've,

um, I'm not sure if only socializing
if that, you know, maybe it's good.

Brad Frost: have you always had
that has it taken long periods

of being too lopsided in one area
in order for you to, to arrive

Christine Vallaure: Yeah, I mean, totally,
because I think it's like with everyone,

no, you, you, you study what you wanna do.

So I studied design and then you go,
I worked in like agencies and stuff,

it was, I just felt really weird.

I felt like there's something wrong
with me because everybody else, it

seemed so natural for them to turn
up at nine o'clock and to do all

that work and then to leave and.

like I didn't mind doing the work, but I
was like, if I just could do it in my own

time and structure it and I didn't know,
it's just, it's, I had this like urge to

just, to just do it my way and it took a
long time now until, because you have to

obviously get the experience and stuff.

And then I went freelance and that was
already better because I could like

take client work, but you're still
in an office, you're still on someone

else's time schedule and planning.

And then when it really clicked for me
is when I started like building my own

product and then I had this freedom and
then suddenly I could just fit everything

in and puzzle it all together the way I
want it without feeling guilty, you know?

Brad Frost: you, you're describing
those forces of, the systems and the,

the workplaces and the, aspects of
life where we don't have that full

agency or autonomy to design life
in the way that we would prefer.

And I feel like that's Overwhelming
majority of of people have to, live.

in those sort of work world is we're
dealing with these things that it's

like, yeah, somebody else has created
the game board that I am now playing in.

Christine Vallaure: I mean,
I think it's two sides.

No, I mean, the thing I, I also have,
um, I know a lot of people that really

enjoy it because it also means that
you don't have to worry about it.

You get your paycheck, you are told
when to be where, clear responsibilities

and, and you can also, like when you go
home, you go home, a lot of time people

to take their computer.

So it's also really nice.

and I think most people
actually really enjoy that.

And I understand this joy of
leaving a computer and going home.

It just doesn't work for me.

I just, I don't even
wanna leave my computer.

I really like having my computer,
like taking my computer on

holidays, on the weekend.

I also enjoy doing the week like.

go for a run.

If I wanna go, I go.

There's this really funny thing
that on, on LinkedIn, someone put

like, with remote work, and then
they showed the calendar, the shared

calendar, and they saw that one of the
employees, I think put a hairdresser

appointment at 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock.

It went like viral.

No.

And it was like, how, that's why remote
work doesn't work because people abuse it.

I'm thinking, why would I not go to the

Why, why

go there?

Like, you know, nobody's there super fast.

much easier than if I go in the evening.

So for me it's like just, I don't
know, it's, but I understand why

it doesn't work, you know, in a
team and it's more, more tricky.

I really enjoy puzzling
these days together.

And also know, when I, I always go
for a run or do some sports in the

morning, and I really need that.

that's the moment I think
about what I'm gonna do.

I get the best ideas.

Like, I don't know, when people say,
like, they get their ideas in the shower.

I get, like, if I go for a run,
that's when I, when I talks

and stuff like that, I get

this is where my brain works.

but you can't do that.

No.

If you're freelancing, you can't be
like, hi, I am just, I'm just gonna

go for a little jo and then I'm
just gonna be back on my computer.

So, but

really love that, that

of, of scheduling it that way.

Brad Frost: that's amazing.

And, and, and I think that there's
something to pick at like the

hairdresser during the day and, and
that, that was certainly my experience.

it's more these, these overwhelming senses
of, of, of guilt and, and what work is

and all of this stuff that I, I think
is, reevaluated and al also dismantled.

I think that there
absolutely is a way to do.

Good and productive team work where
you're all kind of working on something

and still go to the hairdresser.

Like, that's, that's ridiculous.

But, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hairdresser, dentist, and, and,
but also just kind of having the

flexibility of things, right.

It, it really, I think, boils down to how
do you design life, whether you're working

on your own, like you're, like you're
describing, or at an employer and, and

doing that stuff to still be able to exert
that agency and autonomy in some way.

I think that, you can't offload that you
can, you can't delegate those decisions.

You have to claim that and protect
that stuff for yourself wherever

you're at, being self-employed
and running your own thing doesn't

necessarily shield you from that.

So it sounds like you have kind of cracked
the code in that you have you know, shed

the feelings of, of guilt, around going
for that run or doing things or visiting

friends or spending time with your kids
or your partner or, or do you still feel

those pangs of, of guilt along the way?

Christine Vallaure: I, no, I
definitely haven't cracked a code

and it's really funny because, I, I
got this message, this really nice

message the other day from someone.

And, uh, I don't know what she, she
wrote me, it was about the book, about

building solo and stuff, and, and she,
she wrote something about it and then, I

don't know what I wrote back, but like,
something that didn't work or I was like,

and she was like, oh, that's so great
to hear that, that there was mistakes

where you get like stuck in things.

And I was like, of, of course
I do like that, that, I mean,

that's like my whole day.

It's just that you just keep on going.

And, um, that's what I told you.

I mean, that's my ideal day.

That's when everything, you
know, when the stars align.

and that's what I, what I aim for and I
think that's just like sort of, well, I

think the difference is that I noticed
that this is what makes me feel good.

And where I the best, where
I am the best, in my job.

I'm the best mom.

I'm the best friend, I'm the best partner
when I manage to put everything in a day.

But that doesn't

that I manage to do that all the time.

funny

when I say that's where I wanna do it,
people are like, oh, that's so great.

You, you manage.

It's like, no, I, my aim.

sometimes it works.

But, uh, it was really funny 'cause I just
came back from a conference and I did like

sort of a row of conferences and I did
the talk about entrepreneurship and all of

that, you know, that feeling, that agency.

it was like, so, you know, when you're
on these talks, you're so excited.

You have all this adrenaline, you meet
all of these people at such a great time.

and someone even asked like,
how do you keep motivated?

I'm like, no, I just really
like the topic and it's true.

And then I come home and
I had this little thing.

Well, I, I just couldn't get work done.

I was just, it's like, you
know, when people say like,

writer's block, it was like that.

I just sat on my desk, I
just stared at my screen.

I was like, what the hell is happening?

Like, this hasn't happened to me before.

And I just, I couldn't, I
just, it just didn't work.

And then you tried to figure out No.

Like why is it what happened?

What did, what am I doing wrong?

No, it's the thing, and I don't know.

I still dunno.

So I was just the, it worked again, the
moment I was just being a little gentle

with myself and I was like, maybe I
did too much or, and then I just tried

to do like sort of the repe, I tried
to do the repetitive, boring things

like I do my taxes and I do sort of
the, the stuff that, you know, where

you don't have to, you don't need that
high energy to get, not where you don't

products.

That's what I try

Um, because it's just,
yeah, you, you do get stuck.

And it's also funny because what
you say this, this feeling of, um.

Guilt.

Like I obviously then have it a lot,
especially when you've just been on a

stage telling people like, this is how
you look, how inspiring all of that is.

And then you're like, oh my God, if I'm
sitting here and I'm getting nothing done.

it's also part of it, you know, it's like,

Brad Frost: that's right.

you were taken outta your routine, right?

You're, you're going, traveling,
speaking at these conferences.

That's not the normal routine, right?

Uh, so just that in and of itself,
uh, throws a monkey wrench into the

whole, machinery of, you working.

But then I, I'd also be curious to
know, it's like if you feel like

you're in the middle of something,
you've kind of done the work to

kind of get the momentum going.

But to kind of reget that momentum
going right, requires a lot of force,

get the, the bolder moving again.

Or if you felt like it was like
more like a, a proper block.

Do you felt yourself pushing, but you
just couldn't get the, the ball rolling.

Christine Vallaure: No, because
it's very true what you say.

I think there's two things.

There is this pushing to get the
ball rolling and I think people

mistake that when they get started
a lot of the time as a block.

And it's not a block, it's what

And I had this great teacher at
uni, um, so I studied product design

and we, when we did sketches, he
was like, do 10 sketches and we're

gonna throw them away until today
I think of that, and I do that.

'cause he's like, then you're
taking off the pressure and

sketching and suddenly
you're in the sketching.

And it's also great because they,
oh, this is such a good one.

He is like, Nope, it goes in the bin.

And I think that's a really good technique
I can recommend to anyone having that

block to really also get pen and paper
and to really get going and to just

sit there and be like, I'm just gonna
design it and it's gonna be a bit shitty.

I usually, sometimes I even start.

copying a design that I really like.

and then I get going because
it's never gonna look like

the design you start off with.

that I think it's more that's technique
and, and, and really just, just pushing

yourself, you know, just not just telling
yourself to just do this, the stuff.

But the other thing

and I had that for the first time where
I really had a complete block where I was

just like, I just could, I was like, and
I still don't know what happened, but I

think I was just, you know, it was config.

It was so much adrenaline.

I went from San Francisco to Berlin with a
jet lag other, my culture, other culture,

and as such a great time, so many people.

And then, you know, it's also, then
you also have a private life where,

where you have stuff to sort out and,
yeah, it was just like the first time.

But it's, it's funny because you
have this, you get this, reaps up.

No, it's like sort of, you're a bit
like, oh, I don't, I don't function.

And you're like, what if I don't function?

What if I. I don't, because
that's like my superpower is like

shipping stuff fast as one person.

so you, you suddenly start doubting
stuff that it, it's still there

and you probably just need a break.

But that's, I think it's more than the
guilt thing because I don't have the guilt

thing anymore because I don't look at
the hours I work, I look at the output.

Um, and I usually do a list
for what I wanna do in a year,

what I wanna do in the week.

And so it's really nice and I keep
it on notion, so I tick it off.

And when I get a bit like, oh,
I'm not getting anything done, I

look back at a list and you see
all the stuff you ticked off.

So that's really nice.

I think it's also, you know, a bit of a,
a fright when you start doing different

talks, different topics when they're
more personal, when you're more like,

I think it sort of creeps up in you.

Like, can I, can I like, because I
really don't like when people talk

the talk and don't walk the walk.

So it's a bit like you don't wanna be that
person, so you're like, I have to ship.

I have to ship.

But that never helps.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

what you said earlier about, it's
like kind of the way out was, was kind

of just being gentler with yourself
and, and almost kind of trying less,

uh, in order to, to kinda get go.

Christine Vallaure: I.

Brad Frost: It seems counterintuitive,
but I do, I think, I think that a lot

of people, we see it a lot, people
put a lot of pressure on themselves.

you know, whatever stories you are
telling yourself, I'm, I'm the person

who ships, I, you know, I'm the whatever.

Uh, in a lot of people.

Tell themselves stories, whether
that's coming from inside themselves or

they're, they're extrinsic motivators,
uh, real and perceived, you know, oh,

the boss is breathing down my neck,
or I feel the, the boss is breathing

down my neck even though they're not.

Uh, I, I see a lot of those dynamics
in at play, and that all leads to that

false sense of I have to get this right.

I have to get this.

Perfect.

of, I think what I'm hearing from you is
that it's just like you work when it's

time to work and when the, the stars
have aligned for you to do that work

and you're interested in it and you're
like, oh, that, that's a good idea.

Or I feel like I'm in the
mood to dig into that.

And then there's plenty of
times where you're likely not.

In the mood or you're, you're not
enthusiastic about it and you need

to go do something else that, that
makes you happy in the meantime.

Christine Vallaure: just like, you
also have to, so I'm a big fan of that,

of, making your work day yourself and
giving yourself that space, because

I think if, if you tick that way, you
know, if you tick the way that you say,

I want a fix job and I'm gonna have
at six, that's also perfectly fine.

If you tick that way, then also
there's, there's no way out.

You're never gonna be happy in
a, in a, in a contract work.

uh, it can be really beautiful
because you have that freedom.

but it also, obviously you, you have
to somehow also get to the output.

So most of the time, I think for me,
having that freedom, it gives that output.

because of the talks and I change
topics and, and research a bit and

stuff, I got really into this whole
what motivates different people

to sort of go the extra mile.

And I think it's a super interesting
subject because I listened to a, it was

a podcast, I think it was Barriers of
the CEO and it was with David Brailsford.

so he trains like cyclists and
he's everybody listening who's

about cycling and, and all of that.

I, I'm not an expert.

I really just listened to him and I got
really into the idea of sports psychology

because I think it's so interesting
because when you an athlete, pushing

yourself, you want to, and it's great.

And, it's really interesting like how
he explained it because he changed the

dynamic from going of thinking about the
win going of thinking about the pedal.

So he has the sentence he said
that is like, focus on the

pedals and not the podium.

because he says, the problem is
when you only focus on the win.

Then also the win is such a short moment.

First of all, you might not
get there, second if you get

there, it's just a split second.

And then you're having
also this fall afterwards.

So what, what you're gonna do, you
know, once you, once you reach that,

the podium, so he says, um, they got
much better output, they got much better

athletes by focusing on the pedal.

Because I said that's the only thing
you can influence as an athlete

is that you having that perfect
pedal stroke every time you cycle.

And then if you win, it's gonna be, it's
like a little plus on top, you know?

But your aim wasn't the podium,
it was always on the pedal stall.

So it's, beautiful thing that, and
so I got into like reading about the

sports psychology things because I
also think when you are, when you are

an athlete, there's all these people
they think about, like nowadays, no.

They think about your nutrition,
your body, your wellbeing, all of

this stuff, all of the psychology.

And then when we work.

And when we, especially when we
run companies, and I think I'm

really, I'm really interested in
the whole, I have a lot of friends

that work in startups and you know,
the exit and all of these things.

I think it's exactly the same.

And we do the same, but we don't, we
just go for the end goal all the time.

so I think this is like why I became
also so obsessed with this every day

because it's this idea now of the, of the
pedals and that you reach it in the end.

And I just find it very
interesting how different people

tick and what motivate them.

how we also take into account that we're
getting, that we're getting sick, which

with an athlete we wouldn't, we wouldn't
want our star athlete to, to get injured.

So people really watch it.

But if you're running a company, nobody
watches that, like sort of a side product.

Brad Frost: yeah.

It's like, it's like that that physical
and, and mental health is I think

a lot more front and center for an
athlete where that's their, their aim.

I do love that.

Pedal, not podium The
word is really presence.

And I think that you started this
conversation, I think, in a really

beautiful way in saying it's like
the excitement kind of comes from

living a good day, a balanced day.

But you've identified
that that's the goal.

That's, that's the goal
is to live a good day,

Christine Vallaure: not for everybody.

Brad Frost: for you, well,
I would, I would stay

Christine Vallaure: agree?

I I could imagine

Brad Frost: very, I would agree,
but I would also throw it out there

to everyone that the goal ought
to be for, for any human being on

this planet, is to live a good day.

Because I think that many
people get caught in the trap

of, whatever those podiums are.

a lot of people say, I will be happy
when I'm at that podium, right?

When, when I have enough money in
the bank or when I get that promotion

or when I, you know, you know, buy
that car or when I do this or when

I accomplish that thing, then I will
allow myself to, to, to be happy.

And, and I think that there's
psychology as well as a lot of

ancient beliefs and stuff that it's
like those types of things, right?

Sort of banking on one day I'll be
happy, it truly is that mentality

of saying, what does a good day
look like for, for you, right?

And you're gonna have your
own version of it, right?

You, you, you described it beautifully.

You want this, this healthy blend of
fulfilling work, family time, friends

It's that presence and learning how
to cultivate presence and learning how

to cultivate, uh, gratitude, for the
day that's the, it is like focusing

on the pedal is the fact that you live
in a world where you have a computer

screen in front of you and just,
that's a miracle in and of itself.

And the fact that we're able to talk
across geographies and, and oceans

and, uh, like it's, it's stunning.

What reframing can do.

And, and it is that, that the, the focus
on that presence and the gratitude and

the ability to just kind of say like,
I'm gonna make today a good day and

this is what I'm gonna shoot for and I'm
gonna fall short But at the same time,

like that's, that's what you're striving
for is to, is to, to have a good day

the results of that will, will come.

And it sounds like you do some, like far
future or, or near too far future planning

that helps you sort of, you know, pedal in
a direction, but you're aware that you're

not going to get there all in one day.

Christine Vallaure: Yeah, so I think it's
why I was think so amazed by, or why I

really, really enjoyed this, this talk
about the pedals and the podium, because

it still includes the podium because I
think a lot of the time when you talk

about enjoying the day, and, and you know,
it sounds a bit weird because it's, first

of all, you need, you need to have the,
the, the, the economic freedom to do so.

It sounds a bit like you're just
launching and, and hanging out with your

friends, and that's really not what I
mean, because I am, I'm a big fan of

being ambitious about things, and I
think there's a big difference whether

you are ambitious or whether you're
competitive, and I think competitive.

It's also a, it's not a bad thing if you,
again, if you're an athlete, if you are

in a team, you have to be competitive.

Otherwise, you know, you need that.

But I'm, for example, I'm
not competitive at all.

I'm ambitious.

I don't care if, if, if my neighbor has a
bigger house or a bigger car, but I care

that I live in a place I like you know,
it's not like I'm, I'm living in a little

hut and I am just living of, of love
and, and painting pictures, um, which is

also great, but if that's your lifestyle.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Christine Vallaure: so I, I really
wanna bring back the, um, the idea

that by making your everyday worthwhile
and focusing on that paddle, are

still going, you're still keeping
the possibility of the podium, but.

I think that is really important because
I don't wanna tell the story of just

digital work and just live the happy
life because for, I also think there is

so much satisfaction in creating good
products, creating a company that you

enjoy, having a team, however you tick.

You know, I like working by myself,
but I also have, like, when I see

with my friends, when they lead
teams, like there's so much joy

when they find the right place.

Um, and I just think it's,
it's just so easy to get lost.

Um, and so I, yeah, I like, I like
this idea of, of just reflecting

and putting stuff in your day and
not thinking that if you're taking a

little bit time out of your day, that.

That, that this is gonna add
to the quality of your output.

It's the nutrition, it's the getting
the rest, it's the, you're not gonna

do the race if you don't do the rest.

but in work we don't do that.

We're like, oh, I'm just gonna have
three espresso in the morning and

I'm just gonna sleep five hours.

And because like, I'm
just gonna push through.

It's like, yeah, you can do it if
sometimes you need to, you have

a deadline and you, you do it.

But if, if that's your, your work
routine, then I think that's, that, that

might cause you trouble down the road.

And, but we, we still glorify that.

for me it's more like keep the
ambition keep the drive and

keep all of that, that energy.

I really like high energy people.

It like really fascinates me.

But it doesn't mean that you have
to ditch all the rest, you know?

Brad Frost: Yeah.

I, I love so much of, of
what you just said there.

I, I really love that distinction
between ambition and, and

competition and that a little bit of
competition I think can be healthy.

Christine Vallaure: Are you
competitive or ambitious?

Which one are you, Brett,

Brad Frost: a a hundred percent ambitious.

I am the, one of the least
competitive people I, I know.

Christine Vallaure: hear,

I

they play, sometimes I play like
people play card, like we play

cards with like kids or something.

And my friends become incredibly
ambitious about winning Monopoly.

but it's also great because when you
play like this and you see that you

have kids on the table, they love
those ambitious adults because they

They take the game seriously.

And I'm just like, I'm just like,
can we just sit there and have like,

I don't know, can we ever drink
and just not play a board game?

uh,

Brad Frost: I, I'm a big
fan of like, no, no, no, no.

I like, I think, I think that there's,
that collaboration versus competition

I, I think is something that, that is,
is such a, a really interesting thing.

And they're not necessarily
a hundred percent at odds.

With each other.

I think that it's a lot of how
you sort of balance things, right?

I think that there's, you know, you
could, you could talk about many, many,

many creative partnerships that have,
you know, the world has benefited from,

uh, some, some healthy competition,
uh, between some ambitious people.

So, so it can be a good motivator.

Uh, I do think though, too many
things get positioned as these

kind of zero sum games, right?

If, if I win in business,
that means you have to lose.

And I reject that entirely.

Like, entirely.

I think that, and, and that's, that's
really I think at the, the heart of

creativity is to sort of see opportunities
and to not see things in a zero sum way.

Uh, but rather to sort of find inventive
ways where more people can, live

and, and play and, and exist, right?

It's, it's, oh, here are these paths,
here are these well-worn paths?

Well, what if we make a new path?

And that is, I think, really exciting
and, and kind of rejects that idea of

it's like, here's these people that
are doing similar things and they

are my competitors and I must win.

And if I win, that means that they lose.

If they win, that means that I lose,
that's kind of been one of the, the

most fun things for me as I've kind of
like really gone out on my own, is to,

uh, explore and actually like live,
uh, what does it look like to live in

kind of a, a post competition world

I really love how you're talking
about kind of preserving that

ambition while sort of shedding a lot
of that, competitive nature of it,

because that stuff tends to distract.

I, I, I see that as, as generally
negative energy or has the, the really

easy potential to spill over into
negative territory where you're, you're

all of a sudden saying, oh, in order
for me to win you, you need to lose.

And, and I just think that there
are very, very, very few things

that actually are, zero sum games.

I.

Christine Vallaure: for me it's
difficult with the, I'm just

thinking if there is examples.

I mean, in sports if you, you know,
if you're playing for one team, the

other one has to lose, and I think it's
probably somewhere in life as well.

But I think it's more in a, if
you building larger companies

and you really need a huge market
share in order to maintain your

company, then I understand that.

But that's just nothing I'm interested in.

And it's just absolutely, I don't,
I don't, I like niche market.

Like the, you know, the small agile
thing, which I think is the same you do.

And so I think it's just such a beautiful
place to operate because I mean, we

have it now and we meet at conferences
and then I, everybody I admired,

I, I now, it was so great because I
started conferences I think three,

three or four years ago, and everybody
I admired from afar I've now met.

and it's so great because you also think
have this admiration and you look at

them and you, and then suddenly you,
you meet those people and all of them,

you know, if I meet, I mean for me it's
more like course creation directly.

So it's like someone like Molly,
someone like Joey Banks, like sort

of, sort of that crowd, like Pablo
Stanley, Leon are doing like the

exactly the same topics that I do and.

And you meet them and they're just
absolutely brilliant and you get along

with them and it's, it's not even that
we're swapping ideas because we still

operate in niches, but you also notice
we, we, we operate in different niches

and, and I mean, you do stuff with
Molly and then I do, I promote Molly's

courses even though I could probably.

people off.

But for some stuff, she's
just better than me.

and then she sends people over when
they need other stuff that I do.

So, and, and it, it's, for me, it's more
like meeting those people, um, rather

than swapping one-to-one business ideas.

It's just the, the energy you have
because all of them are really ambitious

and they're really into the craft
they're doing, and they have such

a high standard of craft and such
a high standard of, of producing.

So, and that is what really
motivates me when I'm like, wow.

Like I, I know these people and,
uh, they're like, some of them we

can really call my friends by now.

And, um, and that's more sort
of, it's like, like sort of this

little, this little side universe.

And actually it was, it was really
nice this year at config, There was

a talk, uh, on the main stage and
it was, uh, Jeremy Hin who does the

severance, uh, stuff, he didn't even
know what Figma was, but you know, he

does like movies and so he came and he
was like, I'm just doing this thing.

And then he was on stage and he was
like, I really like being here because

I always feel like I'm, you know, he
is very creative doing these sets.

And so he is like, like I always
feel like I'm a misfit and this feels

like a big conference for misfits.

And I think it's exactly how it feels
because you are always a bit, you know,

whenever I worked in companies and I
worked for like, sort of the traditional,

you know, when you're in Germany you work
for like the car companies and all that,

and I'm always, always a bit of the.

Sort of, yeah, you do great stuff and
you are really into your work, but

you never sort of play at this level.

And then suddenly you meeting
those people that make a living

and that live that stuff.

And I think it's just very inspiring
and I'm doing the stuff I do

because I saw them doing it and I'm
like, oh, this is actually a job.

and it's, I can just encourage everybody
to find these, this little, this little

universe for yourself, what you are into,
but I really like sort of when people

are really into it, and it doesn't mean
that they're intense, it just means they

have a really high energy and interest in
what they're doing Doesn't mean they're

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yeah, it's like that, that it's.

Exuberance.

Right.

And, and it is, it is infectious
and that's the show is.

And, and whether, I don't see yourself
that way or not, I could spot a fellow

traveler a mile away and that's what
the show, that's what the show is.

But, and, and, and I love how you're
describing it, which is, there's

this admiration and there's this
like understanding that it's like,

oh, these people are, are exuberant
and enthusiastic and inspiring and

passionate, and I. Am that way as well,
and I can kind of draft off of their

wake, uh, in the same way that you can
deliver that for, for other people.

And I think that that's really, I think,
kind of the spirit of this podcast is I,

that I think that everyone looks to people
like you and a lot of the other guests,

uh, on the show and stuff for that, like,
for like, here's this energy, here's

this enthusiasm, here's this general
sense of, of ambition and optimism and

positivity that I think a lot of people
are, are starved for, unfortunately.

And, and I think that everyone
has the, the capacity for.

That energy for that
creativity, for that outlook.

Um, I think that it comes easier
to some, like there's just

genetic factors, no doubt at play.

There's environmental factors at play
and stuff like that, but, but really

at the end of the day, do you have
this, this excitement and you could

feel it in, in, in other people.

that admiration, I think you're, you're
describing it very well, is like that

admiration for other people's enthusiasm.

you can wield that as a tool to, to go
back to your own work, whether they're

operating in exactly the same field as
you, or they're making movies or they're a

musician or, or they're just like somebody
else doing whatever they're doing in life.

You can feel that energy.

And that's like a really
cool skill to deVallaurep.

Christine Vallaure: Like
for me it's conferences.

No, because when you go out and you,
it's like the place where I meet most

people, like-minded people, but I, know
how, how, how you feel about that because

you've been doing that for so much longer.

if you still get there, because I
also imagine that at some point,

like now I did so many in a row, and
at some point you also get tired.

I mean, maybe you're right.

It doesn't even have to be that,
it doesn't have to be someone

who works in exactly the field.

Sometimes you just go for dinner and
someone just has a, it's just, just, I'm

not very esoteric, but you know, in the
end it is a sort of a energy and, um, I

notice when you, when you just go for,
for what attracts you, then it, it's, you

usually get that, you usually get that
energy back and it's just really nice.

It's when you go home, you know, sometimes
when you had this moment, you had a

bad day, and you go and it's just a
five minute conversation with someone

that you randomly meet on the street
you haven't seen for a while, I think

it's why I like living in Spain so much
because everybody's just so positive.

You go Today, I went to buy some
fish and they were just, they were

just so excited about the fish they
were selling me, and I was like,

I really, I love that when you go to a
market and, and you know you, because

you can go in and you can do any job.

and, and you know, I also understand
that some jobs that they're very hard.

And, and again, I live in a very
privileged situation here with my laptop.

Um, but, and sometimes you,
um, you just go in the shop and

they're just so into that thing.

And then I was like, how, I
don't know how to do that fish.

And then the lady next to me gives me
sort of recipe ideas and then the, the

guy selling it, it's like, no, but you,
you just do a bit bit butter and this and,

and, and, and I'm just like, whenever I
have that, Then I, I get really into it.

And when I was at uni for example,
I was working always, I was working

part-time like in, in bars and,
and and restaurants and stuff.

And it's just like, it can
be re it's really good fun.

And as soon as you see that people
are really into it, like there's

some people, they wanna make the
perfect cocktail and they're just

so into it and they just wanna be,
it just has to, they're like, ah.

And then there's just some people
they, you know, they have to do the

hours because they want the cash,
which is also fine sometimes in life.

It is about

Um, but if you can manage to twist
it or to go somewhere where you

like it, then for example, I could
have worked in a, like a lot of

people that worked in uni, what they
did, like call centers and stuff.

And, um, I think I would've just
been really, I would've earned more

when I would've been really bored.

And so I just worked there because
again, there was music, there was

that sort of spirit and especially
people working in like sort of the.

Service industry, it's,
they're usually really into it.

You know, when they, when they run
their bar, when they run the restaurant,

and I think it shows, and I, whenever
I go somewhere and someone's very

excited about, like, stuff you didn't
even think you could be excited about.

I'm like, yeah,

that.

Brad Frost: I, like, I do think, and
it's like I know that we, we have been

focusing on, this professional angle
to this, but, but I think that, uh, you

were saying you're, you're not esoteric
or, or as esoteric, but it's like, it,

it is that energy and it is the people
who can find the excitement in fish

and the people who are just there.

And it's almost like this,
this, I'm here anyways.

Christine Vallaure: Yeah.

Brad Frost: might as well, I. fun and,
and be interested in this because,

uh, you know, 'cause otherwise I could
just be, my head could be elsewhere

and I could be miserable and I could
be thinking about all the things

that I'm not doing and and stuff.

And so it really is in those, I
think those, those truly mundane

experiences and those, those everyday
things, not, not everything is

launching a book or launching a course
or all of these like professional

accolades or all of like these big
sexy projects and stuff like that.

So much of it has to do with just,
again, living that, that good day

and making the decision to say.

I am going to choose to
be interested in this.

I'm going to find fun ways
to, um, find satisfaction in

sometimes even like boring things.

I bet you any money, if you were
to work at that call center,

you would've had a blast.

You would've found the ways to,
to connect with the human beings

Christine Vallaure: is

Brad Frost: on the other end.

Christine Vallaure: at.

I can tell you.

And the funny thing is, there were

the one that most, I'm not gonna say which
one was, I think the job where I got most

money, it was that I just had to leave.

I, I, I, and there was people
that, they were super happy.

There.

Again, I think it's

that everybody notices the way
they tick, which is beautiful.

Otherwise, we would all
wanna do the same job.

Um, but there

like, I was just, I can't
deal with politics at work.

Like I really cannot handle it.

I get, I get depressed.

I, I'm just like, something inside
me just goes when there is politics.

And titles and lattice,
and it doesn't work for me.

Um, it

Yeah.

And, but there is people
that are really good over it.

It's almost like they're playing a
little game and, and then, you know, it

And then, and then I'm
like, great, you, you do it.

You take the pay.

It's, it's a shame because I would've
wanted to keep the paycheck and

just do something else with it.

But, yeah, I think it's, it, it's, it's
very individual, but for me that is

like, there is definitely environments.

I think there's a lot of, it is intrinsic.

A lot of of it is that

your day.

And I think I always try to do
that and like, I'm, what you say?

I'm here anyways.

and uh, but there is also environments
that where you just don't fit.

And when you just don't fit in, then
you just, you also have to leave.

and you have to find an alternative
because otherwise you, you, it

is just really not good for you.

And I see that with, with people that
get stuck in places because of the, you

know, you have the mortgage and the kids
and the, and the blah and it's, it's,

I, I see how, how much pressure it is.

it's, it's tricky.

It's, it's very hard when
you're stuck in the wrong place.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

And, and, and I think that you're, you're
touching on some really important things,

which is ultimately know thyself, right.

And know what turns you on, what gives
you enthusiasm and excitement and Yeah.

If you are a. You know, hyper social
person that thrives in being in

that thing, then maybe don't go
work in a field by yourself, uh,

for instance, and vice versa, right?

If you're not, in excited about, In my
experience, not a ton of people have

done explicit work on that and, and
sort of have arrived at that stuff.

And, and maybe we could pick it at
that, but, but so yeah, so there's the.

There's the know thyself thing, and
then there's the, the, the constant

kind of reevaluation of here's me in
the world and here's this environment

that I'm in, and is this compatible?

Am I, you know, finding more positive
things than negative things in this,

uh, you know, and not just day to day.

'cause obviously every day is different,
but it's like if you are able to sort of

like see a, a pattern or a trend of, of,
ugh, this is, this is not serving me.

Uh, overcoming that, that pressure,
that extrinsic pressure, mortgage

kids, et cetera, uh, like those
are very real things and, and what

people have to, to, to deal with.

But at the same time.

Again, you, you don't get that time back.

Like, I, I think that that's like the,
the one thing that, that I've really

learned that just like you've, you
said you've seen people get stuck.

I think that that's definitely
been my experience as well.

And it's just like, yeah, it, you can make
two and two equal four in a lot of ways.

And again, some of those ways can
be quite inventive as, as we've been

discussing here, and there's risk
involved, uh, in sort of making moves.

But like, do you really want to subject
yourself to, oh, 15 more years of this,

and then I can finally get out of this
place and I'll have, you know, when

I get to this place, I will be happy.

And there it is again.

You know, it's like, it,
it, it, it really is that.

Like how do you turn that attitude
on its head and back into how

we started the conversation,
which is have, have a good day.

Like how, how do you take
that and turn it around?

Christine Vallaure: um, but I mean, I
also think there is, um, another way also

to see it because I have friends that
have said, I, my work isn't, that's not

the place where I get my fulfillment.

My

family, or, uh, is my hobby.

And then they say, well, I
just get a work that I enjoy.

That I'm fine with.

I

a very valuable way, you know, that you,
that you do that, that you say, this is,

for me, it's very tricky because I, I
am my work and I like being my work.

I identify maybe too much with my work.

That's another podcast.

But, um, but if you, I think it's also
also nice if you can do that, but, and

then you have other things, but then you
have to be, if you're clear about it,

you know, and then it's, I I wouldn't
recommend that you then go for a job that

takes us up 15 hours of your day, maybe.

But, you know, there are some of my
friends that work part-time and they,

they just say, well, I am being a mom.

That's what fulfills me.

And I think that's really great.

Can be really, really great as well.

Or dead as well.

I see that less,

Brad Frost: I think you're onto something
there, in, in that it's like, and there's

also these things are not static, right?

Uh, you becoming a mom fundamentally
changes your priorities in life, right?

And cha and changes that.

Yeah.

And so,

Christine Vallaure: things.

You know, how much time you're
having a day and, and, and how

much because I, I'm a, I'm a

love being in control.

I control, I'm, I'm, I'm
a big fan of control.

But you know, you, you, you've got,
you've got kids where it's like, just

control just goes out of the window.

And, uh,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Christine Vallaure: good learning,
but now, now remember what I

wanted to say with what you
say with it has to feel good.

I think I, I want to write that somewhere.

That is like, when you look at, with
work, you're gonna have moments where

it's hard, where there is problems,
there is stuff you gotta go through.

So you, it's not about just
ditching it as soon as it feels bad.

Um, but

always like, if you look at the entire
year, have you been around 80% fine?

Uh, 80.

Can you say for 80, around 80%.

Rough feeling.

I'm feeling, I'm feeling good.

Maybe 70.

Whatever.

You know, you pick your
number that you need.

And I think it's for everything.

This is for work.

This is for friendships, this
is for relationships as well.

You know, you're not gonna,

it's not gonna be amazing all the
time, but if it's all the time

really terrible, maybe you, you,
you wanna have a conversation.

And it's the same with work.

If you, if you go there all
the time and, and, but there,

we just take it for granted.

We're just like, because I think we
have this narrative of this is what

it's like, work is like hard and
terrible and it's like, that's really

sad because work, I actually at work
when someone asked me for my hobbies

the other day and I was like, oh, it's
like sports and, and work and work.

And I really, I really work is my,
I really enjoy, like mo there's sort

of stuff I don't, you know, I have
to do, but I, it's really what I,

I would do that stuff if you, if if
tomorrow I win the lottery, I would,

I would keep on doing that stuff.

really,

I'm thoroughly interested in, in those
topics and, and you obviously would

put a twist on it, but, did you, I
think you posted that once there's

the calendar with your lifetime.

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Christine Vallaure: the,
they got crossed off.

And there is a really cool thing
there is from, he did a clock.

So you put, it goes backwards.

So you put your life expectancy
and you can actually calculate

your life expectancy.

When you put, there's a, if you Google it,
there's like a life expectancy calculator.

So you put in your lifestyle where
you live, um, your diet, your ex

like it, it asks this like sort of
10 minutes of questions about you.

And it calculates your life
expectancy, which I think mine is

like 87 or something like that.

and so then you can put it, then
there's a little backwards, uh, clock.

So you have a little clock on your
desk and it calculates, it shows

you how much time you have left.

uh, it's really scary.

And it's really funny because
the reaction of people is like,

I'm like, this is so cool.

I love it.

And most, there's a lot of people that
they're like, this is horrible and

this is like, this is really terrible.

And it's scary, huh?

Because it feels.

Infinite the time you've
left, but you know,

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Christine Vallaure: you're like,

Brad Frost: but

Christine Vallaure: I thought I went.

happen?

That that should not have happened.

Brad Frost: it co it comes for
all of us in a, in a lot of

cases, sooner than we'd like.

And, and that's, I think, one of
the most humbling parts of it all.

And, and back to, I, I feel like that
the, the theme to keep, you know, I

feel like you, you perfectly articulated
it at the very right out of the

gate, is just like having a good day.

And that balanced day between
doing fulfilling work, spending

time with the people you love.

Diet, exercise, just living like a,
you know, a decent existing Yeah.

But like, but it is, it's like
those fulfilling activities, right?

And because banking on that future payoff,
you said it earlier, it's like, you know,

sometimes the, the work sucks or sometimes
you gotta roll up your sleeves and do it.

Sometimes it's, it's, it's not fun.

Um, and, and a lot of times that's
just what you gotta do in order

to, to make good things happen.

But at the same time, I think that
there is that narrative that you

said where it's just like, work is.

Supposed to be miserable, and then
when you're done with work and you,

and you retire, it's just hammocks
and margaritas and, and all of that

stuff, which is also bullshit, right?

Like it's so, so it's this fun,
these two false narratives.

And I think that you've been
picking at it, you're like, I'd

be doing this stuff anyways.

Even in my free time, I took a,
I took a three month sabbatical

and I was wildly productive.

it's just because of how I'm wired.

Yeah.

Christine Vallaure: think like I get
more done and because I don't, I don't

sort of kill myself Monday to Friday.

I'm still up for a bit of
work on a Saturday and Sunday.

So I also read about my work and I
would like listen to podcasts and it's

because, I mean, again, it's a luxury.

I'm completely into the, the stuff
that there's so much happening,

you know, with like technology
and things that to research.

But I have to also say, um, um,
sort of, uh, how do you say, um.

Contradicting my own, my own words.

I have seen people that retire
and they're incredibly happy.

and they did the whole
treadmill and then retire.

And then I have seen people that,
you know, did the whole, I'm just

gonna ditch family relationships
and everything, and I'm gonna go all

in and then I'm gonna have to exit.

And then I have seen that work as well.

it is a feasible road that you can do.

And I think also some people really
enjoy to have that in themselves, that

they wanna go all in and they wanna go
really, really, um, you know, they're

like young, I wanna do this one.

I wanna feel the success,
but I also think it's fine.

It's for me personally.

Um, and it took me a long time to
realize, because I think, again, this

comes back to this, when you are an
ambitious person, you do sometimes look

at this, and this feels like this is the.

Poster.

Perfect of ambition.

No building something, getting that
funding, like making it big, uh, getting

that recognition because you obviously
get a lot more press, you get a lot

more attention if you had the, the,
the, the huge numbers and all of that.

so for me, it, it, it took
quite a while to, to notice

that I'm not cut out to do that.

and that there's nothing wrong with it.

And it doesn't mean that I have to ditch
my ambition, that it still means I can

do thi do things in, in other ways.

And that it's relevant.

You can earn well, it doesn't mean that,
you know, because we also have this thing.

If you don't do, if you don't
go here, then you are down here.

that's not

know, there's a lot of space in between.

So I also find it very important to
always say this, when I also wanted

to do the talks about entrepreneurship
and building and, and building your

own product and having this joy in
building, you can still earn money.

There is nothing shameful
about earning money about,

you can say, I wanna, I wanna.

Become super rich.

It's like, if you wanna do that, you
know, you probably have to look at

your strategy and how you do that.

Um, but there is it.

It doesn't mean that you're gonna be,
because we still have this, the poor

artist in our head, and it, it's,
especially with today's technology and

all the stuff you can do, you can just,
you can just twist things a little bit,

you know, to, to make them work for you.

Brad Frost: that's precisely it.

Startup founder, abandoning life
and, and going all in and getting

the hockey stick in the exit.

As I've talked to those people
myself, I Oh, it, it is, it is.

And it's not to say, you know,
back to athletes, all right.

Like there really is something
about, it's like, I'm going,

Christine Vallaure: they

Brad Frost: I'm going right.

But, uh, but a lot of the times I think
that it, it truly does come at a cost.

And when you look at those athletes that
once their career is over through, through

retirement or a lot of times, like through
injury or whatever, they're like, oh god.

And it's, it's like the
void, you know what I mean?

And so, so it's not to say that
amount of focus or whatever

isn't, isn't necessarily, uh,
should be avoided at all costs.

But I really love what you're saying is
that there are a lot of ways to do this.

And I think that there's a, a
few predominant narratives, uh.

Here's the hockey stick of growth and
that's what constitutes success as a, as

a business or here's what a successful
career or a successful life looks like.

And it really is about, I think,
rejecting those narratives as

the only viable narratives.

And instead saying, well, what,
what exactly would I like my

life and, and career and, and
everything else to, to look like?

I can guarantee you there are
ways, you've mentioned it kind of

throughout and I want to pick at it.

You're like, oh yeah.

Like I realize like this is, you know, my
privilege and this is our, you know, field

and we're really like lucky to be here.

I, I truly believe that this is applicable
to, to any person that there's not,

like, obviously we're very lucky.

Obviously we all have like
our, our privileges, but also

our, our disadvantages as well.

But it's, it's really about recognizing
where we're at, where we're coming from

and where we're trying to go, that is
applicable to anyone irrespective of their

field, their industry, their, their, you
know, privileges or disadvantages in life.

It has to do with knowing yourself,
figuring out like what you're trying

to accomplish in this life, and then
setting out to, to do it like, and,

and to get closer to that and to
peel away some of the, the gross.

Parts of it, and to do more of the
stuff that you enjoy doing and, and

having more of, of those good days.

It's, it's not an all or nothing thing.

It's not a fantasy.

And I think as you've been sort
of saying throughout is, is like,

yeah, it's, it's not perfect.

And we all have hard days and we all have
like good and bad days, but like, I get,

I, I, I get sensitive whenever it's like,
oh, like this is for, for people like us,

uh, that, that, that this is exclusive to.

And I, and I hear that a lot because
people will be like, well, well

Brad, of course you can say this.

I'm just a person sa same as you.

And I think that like my, what I,
what I want to pick at with this

show and, and just in general is
to sort of like help more people.

Take that kind of often
very self-defeating

out of, out of the, the equation.

I think a lot of people do say
things like that in order to say,

I'll just be over here and be
miserable and resent the people that

I see, uh, you know, going for it.

And I think that it's like, I, I,
I'm really interested in helping

people go, you're slinging fish.

You can,

Christine Vallaure: Yeah.

Brad Frost: can be be doing this.

Like you, you, you can be at a
place where you wake up excited,

you do your fulfilling work, you're
sharing recipes with your customers.

You're coming home to your family.

You're, you're putting
your own fish on the table.

Uh, absolutely positively.

Possible for people, and that it's
like, it really is these, these kind of

like self defeatist types of attitudes
that I see being very, very pervasive.

And there's a lot of
stickiness to those ideas.

And social media landscape doesn't help.

Putting people on pedestals doesn't
help, uh, certain professions.

Uh, the startup founders, the, these,
these brilliant minds, these solo minds,

all of, like the, the, the, the culture
that we live in doesn't help any of this.

Well, I, I couldn't be that right?

I am, I'm but a lowly person here
and I, I call bullshit on everything.

Christine Vallaure: I, I agree with you.

Um, to, I think there's a
lot of meritocracy involved.

Uh, and I think that's true.

I still obviously do think
it's like where, you know, I

had access to an education.

I,

to, uh, learn English because
my, my parents would foster

this so I can make courses.

And I think there's a lot of that
in there that, that I don't wanna

say, you know, this was all,
this was all me because there

I had a, I had a good
head start, you know,

Brad Frost: Yes,

Christine Vallaure: to
be taken into account.

Um,

Brad Frost: it does.

Christine Vallaure: what I also,
what I fully agree with you is

the whole thing that people go
like, oh, you were just lucky.

And it's like, no, because the
luck thing you, that is true.

There is luck that you meet
the right people that I met.

Uh, vitally and Caris and all of
them, you know, that said, I think

we should speak, but that only
happened because I wrote a weird,

nerdy article that they enjoyed.

So in order to get the luck, you
don't know where the, the luck is

sort like, sort of flying around.

And so you've gotta go outside and
you've gotta be ready and you've gotta be

prepared and you've gotta get your stuff.

You, you have to show, first of
all, with your content, who you

are, what you're interested in.

and I think then, um, you have to be
ready when luck knocks, because otherwise

you, you know, it's, it's, and it is
involved and yeah, I see it as something

that's like, sort of circling around and
you never know when it's gonna like pass

you, but when it passes you have to be
there and you'd be like, ah, I'm ready.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Christine Vallaure: it's just
gonna fly to the next person.

So, so there is, it's a big mix of a lot
of things and, but I, what I really like

is what you say, it's a, um, because
again, when we think about this, waking

up excited is we think about waking up
excited in, in, in everything sorted

out and falling into a successful.

Way, which how we define or
how, how society defines it.

And it's, it's more the other thing.

It's more the having pride in,
in, in all the little things you

as

Brad Frost: It's more the,
it's more the personal fulfill.

Yeah.

Christine Vallaure: And,

just being, being, I mean,
I have a friend, a friend of

mine said it the other day.

I had a friend who was cleaning windows
during, in university for a side job,

and he became so obsessed with the best
window cleaning technique that he had it

all figured out and he had all these big
YouTube videos and he had like, was like.

Killing the window
cleaning business at some

And that's, I it's just really cool.

and yeah,

actually did a, managed to sort of
optimize the window cleaning and,

and, and make a whole art of it.

And he was very proud of it.

And, you know, people would, so it's,
it's, it's um, that that's the sort

of, I think that's the sort of spirit
now that we, we agree we're talking

about like whatever little job they
give you or the person that's study

can sell ice cream and you can be
the star on the beach or you can just

Brad Frost: Oh my God, yes.

I mean, that's, that's a great job.

Christine Vallaure: know?

Brad Frost: Yeah.

But it, but it's like, I, I
think that that's, that's true.

And, and, and talking about
privilege is always like a really

fascinating thing because it's like.

Christine Vallaure: a slippery
slope as well, you know?

Brad Frost: Well, well, it is a,
it's, it's a third rail thing, but

thankfully I don't care because it's
like, I, I think that there is a lot

of nuance there because I think that
whenever people talk about privilege

and meritocracy and stuff like that,
we're often again, sort of looking

at these certain narratives and it's
like, this is what constitutes success.

And oh, wouldn't, you know it, you know,
anybody can, can get to that point.

It's like, no, no, no.

Where you live and what you've had
exposure to is going to impact whether

or not you become the world's foremost,
uh, biological engineer and, and,

you know, dealing with, uh, you know,

crazy stuff like that, or building
bridges, or building digital products or

being the world's most authority on fish.

like all of that has to do with,
with your, your privilege and, and

your life experience and stuff.

But again, like just how we started
this conversation about living a good

life, I think that that's, that's
really the, the, the metric, the success

metric that I think is truly available
to anyone, irrespective of specific

privileges and disadvantages of which
everyone has different and, and different

shaped terrain in that department.

But I think like that the outcome
right, is around how do you move

closer to what you described at the,
at the top of this conversation,

which is how do you get to a point.

Where you're able to do fulfilling
work, spend time with the

people you love, et cetera.

Those things are
accessible to, to everyone.

And I think that what I've seen is
that so many people going, oh yeah.

Like, well, of course you all can
do that because you know you're Brad

or you're Christine, and you know,
and I'm just over here doing this.

It's like, it's like, no, no, no, you
can get to that place and you really

should strive for getting to that
place because to, to kind of, again,

be in this like kind of lofty like
far future, uh, you know, maybe one

day I, I'll get there, or, or, oh,
this, that road isn't available to me.

It's like, hmm.

Like maybe, maybe so.

But you have roads available to you and
it's worth exploring what those are.

Christine Vallaure: And I think maybe if
you flip it around, if you say, you, uh,

have that in my talk actually in the,
in the one as a, as a finished slide,

as a one of the last slides where it
says, if you have the possibility to

shape your work and your career, then
use it because that's the privilege.

So I think it's more this way around
that a lot of people, they have that

privilege, it's available to them.

And,

and then it's a little
contradictive to to, to not use it.

Um, because it is possible
and you have to take a leap.

But it's, it's sometimes it's, it's
not as crazy that leap as you would

it's really worth the

could always go back to contract
job if you've been there, if

you've had your experience.

And which is also why I feel really
strongly of people when they wanna build

a product, when they run something,
it's like, you can do it on the side.

Just take, you know, just

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Yeah.

Christine Vallaure: it because it's, it's,
it's not as crazy as you think it is.

It's

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Christine Vallaure: to, to do it.

Brad Frost: Uh, that's good.

I'm glad that you're, you're
giving people per permission to

explore or even entertain ideas
in their heads, and I think that

that's what so many people need.

So, so thank you for, for doing that.

a couple things before we wrap up.

you've kind of like alluded to it,
uh, a few times, but like, where

could people, find you and, and
you're sort of talking about your,

your talk in your, in your book.

You wanna plug that real quick?

Christine Vallaure: Yeah.

the best way to connect is, uh,
here is my name, Christine Valor.

Um, if you, if you look me up on LinkedIn,
this is the, the most social media channel

I'm most, most active and put most stuff.

And then you can find me on
moon learning.io and you can

find the solo, it's the solo.io.

And then, yeah, if you just Google
it, you're gonna see all the talks

and that's, they're also up for free.

And, um, always, always
excited to hear that.

I mean, the nicest thing is when
people, um, look at these things

and then they send me, I, I built
something, I made something.

that's

Brad Frost: that's, that's
incredibly fulfilling and rewarding.

It's like you can, you can make
a finite number of things, but

you're empowering other people
to, to make things on their own.

That's great.

Christine Vallaure: well.

So let's see how that goes.

I keep you posted

Brad Frost: That's, that's good.

That's how we do it.

Yeah.

and then the last question
is, um, what music do you want

more people to know about?

It could be

Christine Vallaure: that's your field.

no secret tips for you.

I wish I was a little more,
more, exciting with my music.

I love Jamie xx.

Lately, I've been to JVXX concert

a few months back, and it was the
best concert I've ever been to.

Like, I was just dancing
the, I was like, oh my God.

He's just, and I think he's the one, he's
a good example of all we talked about.

He comes on stage, you
know, he's like big.

He comes on stage.

There's a DJ before him,
and he just goes, hi.

And just, there's no intro, there's no,
he just, just, when you hear interviews

with him, he's a bit like, it feels
always like, he's like, can you just

leave me alone and listen to my music?

Like, I, I put it all in there.

Like, just, and I just think
he, uh, he's just, I, I love it.

And, um, my, my, my German, uh, uh,
worried, anxious soul loves listening to

a lot of Depeche mode once in a while, so

Brad Frost: Heck yeah.

Uh, beautiful.

Amazing.

All right, well thank you Christine.

Thanks for coming on the show.

This was a lot of fun.

So, yeah.

All right.

More soon.

Take care.

Thank you.

Christine Vallaure: Bye.

Thank you.