Restoring Cast Iron as a Pathway to Creativity with Denise Jacobs

Brad Frost: Welcome to Wake Up Excited!

In this episode, I talk
with Denise Jacobs.

Denise is a creativity evangelist,
a speaker, and the author of the

book Banish Your Inner Critic, as
well as several web design books.

I've watched Denise on stage unleash
her positive energy to an unsuspecting

conference audience, and I very much
had her in mind whenever I first hatched

up this idea to put the show together.

We had a great conversation
where we discussed restoring cast

iron, connecting past and present
passions growth through teaching.

Navigating this current
poisonous moment in time.

Denise's incredible backyard garden
and empowerment through creativity.

Before we get into this conversation,
I just wanted to say that wake

up excited is a labor of love
and is totally self-funded.

So if you want to support this show
and my work, I'd really love it if

you checked out our online courses
about design systems, digital design,

and web development, which you could
find at brad frost.com/courses.

All right.

Without further ado, here is my
conversation with Denise Jacobs.

Denise, what are you
excited about right now?

What has you waking up excited?

Denise: I actually have a few things
that are having me wake up excited.

, but the first one that's a
tangible thing is I just started,

restoring cast iron, which.

I kind of love, like
how obscure that feels.

I think especially for people of a
certain age, like in the tech industry

and stuff like that, but I feel like
there's been this, you know, especially

with the pandemic and stuff like that,
there's definitely been a movement

to get back to things that are more.

tangible and physical that you
can do that are more kind of

traditional, type endeavors.

I know during the pandemic, everybody
got crazy about making sourdough

bread and, so during Christmas of 2023.

Brad Frost: my

Denise: sister had mentioned something
about restoring cast iron and there's

like a method you can use using easy
off and putting it in like a black

plastic bag and letting it sit for
a few days and it takes off all

the crud and all the old, you know,

Brad Frost: caked-on

Denise: on stuff.

And I had a full set from 12 inches
down to six inches uh, cast iron

in like six pieces or something.

And I was like, oh wow, I'd really
like to do that because I have

these old pieces and they, they
don't seem to like be non-stick

the way cast iron's supposed to be,

I

Brad Frost: Yep.

Denise: it.

And then I thought, oh, for this
Christmas I was thinking, oh, maybe

what I'll do is I'll take one of
my extra cast iron pans and I'll

refinish it and over for Christmas.

So I did kind of a deep
dive looking into stuff.

Started following this guy called
Cast Iron Chris on Instagram

and watched his videos, watched
some of his stuff on YouTube.

Follow this other guy named Josh Shapiro.

I did it with the easy off, hated
it because the stuff didn't come

off and I was like all grumpy.

And so then I went back to the videos and
I was like, okay, do I need to make an

The answer to that is no, I didn't need
to make an electrolysis tank because one

of the other things that I used to wake
up excited to do many moons ago, moon,

is make handmade soap, handmade cold,
processed herbal soap, one of the things

that you need to make that is sodium
hydroxide, AKA lye, because I make soap,

I literally have just hanging around.

And so one of the methods that you can
use is to make what they call a lye bath.

And you put in one pound of
lye to five gallons of water.

I was like, well, that's easy.

I got lye.

I happened to have just a pound
put it in a bin that I had literally

found on the side of the road.

And I did it and I put the pan that
I had been struggling with in there

and like came back the next day and
just went and took the crud right off.

And I was like, oh.

And then some more research.

It was like, Hey, you know, you can make
this cast iron seasoning mixture with

grape seed oil, sunflower oil and beeswax.

And I was like, well, just
literally happened to have these

things lying around as one does.

And so I made some of
this, iron seasoning self.

So did the whole process followed it to
the letter and everything and came out

the most gorgeous restored cast iron.

I can read the, the, stamps on the back.

Several of my pieces
came from my grandmother.

I, I was hooked.

I was hooked.

Brad Frost: amazing.

Denise: HOOKED.

So, I went through and I did my whole set.

And then I was just like, I
want to do, I wanna do more.

And so I posted about it on
Facebook and a friend was like,

Oh, I have some that you could do.

And I was like, great, bring 'em by.

And then she was like, Oh, and
I also saw this, this posting

for these ones for sale.

I was like, great Contacted the guy.

went, have gathered up, I think at
this point in time, probably 20.

It's been, a, it's been, I've
been, I've done a lot, I keep

doing 'em and they keep coming out.

Perfect.

And look at this, look at this.

Brad Frost: I mean, that
looks like, yeah, that,

Denise: this

Brad Frost: am I a pampered
chef or, Oh my God.

Denise: so so pretty it's from India
and it's got these gorgeous, gorgeous

Brad Frost: Oh, amazing.

I mean, wow.

Denise: Look at this.

Gorgeous.

Brad Frost: Like that,
that looks brand new.

Denise: It does.

Brad Frost: That's incredible.

Denise: so I am like deep, I'm
deep in the hole now with it.

I just, I love the process.

I love like the whole thing,
but I love the product,

They're kind of the same thing.

So it's, in some ways I feel like, well,
it's kind of similar to soap in the

respect was kind of like rough stuff.

You don't know what, and then
you put it together and you put

the scent and stuff together.

You don't really know
how it's gonna come out.

And then it comes out and you're
just like, Oh, I made this thing.

I love making things.

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Denise: I showed this to
you before, look at how

Brad Frost: Look at that.

Denise: look, how gorgeous,

Brad Frost: I mean, that's amazing.

Denise: and then even a little

Brad Frost: That is incredible.

Denise: Come on.

Brad Frost: Ah, it's beautiful.

Denise: Yeah, I just, I

Brad Frost: That's so good.

Denise: I love making

Brad Frost: products!

It's so good.

just, just a few things just
to sort of like play this back.

Denise: my

brother.

Brad Frost: Because there's a lot there.

You're talking about, the tactile
aspect of connecting with something

and like the importance of that.

I also think it's freaking amazing that
you're able to connect multiple things and

you even said it like many moons ago, you
were waking up excited about this thing.

And it sounds like you're not actively
doing that soap as much but you're

able to carry that forward like quite
literally in these materials that you

still have around so you're connecting
these dots between these past and

present passions, which is incredible.

You're bringing in community by going
cool, I am excited about this, and I

am wanting more and I want to bring
people that same excitement and wanna

bring people closer to this and through
the spirit of helping and making

things better and improving something
that's old and worth preserving

Denise: right,

Brad Frost: and giving a new life to it.

Denise: right.

Brad Frost: there's like,
my God, there's a lot there.

Denise: There's a lot of layers

Brad Frost: It's amazing.

Denise: and, and

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: You'll see in a lot of
ways that this is very much

a common thread with me, being
being able to take something that.

was.

not wanted, considered not valuable, or
trash even, or too much work, or whatever,

and taking it, and being like, oh no,

I find this valuable, and I can
make use of it in this way, and

then turning it into something
absolutely beautiful and spectacular.

One of the things that
I think is very, very

common in our culture sadly starting to
be more of a dominant culture globally,

this kind of fast consumption, getting
things using them, when they stop

working so well, throwing them away.

I mean, the number of things

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Denise: see being thrown away
that look perfectly usable.

Yes.

Last night I was driving home and
I stopped because I saw something

on the side of the road in my
It was a cotton candy machine.

Like a home cotton candy machine

Brad Frost: A proper.

Denise: the bowl for it was
bent first of all, I'm like,

how did you bend it like this?

But they just had it in a box and
it's like the whole thing, the

whole mechanism, the whole machine.

you just try to fix this?

Like, this is a whole ass machine, it's
not, it wasn't bought to be disposable,

it was bought to be used, the thing I
love about the cast iron is, no matter

how jacked up it looks, for the most
part, if you strip all the stuff off

and re season it, you're literally, you
are like starting from the beginning

and you've got this perfectly service
serviceable item that probably has tons

of history, tons of people have touched

it, you know, tons of meals have been
eaten at, is nourished countless numbers

of people, families, children, people.

So I think that's really cool.

and I also really love, as a designer,
as a musician, as a, all kinds of

things that you've done in your life.

love the process of building mastery
of something like the process of

like embarking upon something.

And then learning the tools and
learning the actual, substances that

you're working with and learning
the thing itself and learning the

processes and, and learning how

I learn, like being aware of how
I learn something and, and the

observations and what you take and,
oh, okay, that doesn't quite work.

Let me try this.

Um, lemme see what somebody else has done.

Let me, there is, maybe there's a
video, maybe there's an article, oh,

there's this, oh, let me try this.

I love that process.

I love it.

And I love, I love like learning a thing

Brad Frost: There's so much there, right?

that's why I think that this matters.

And really is the whole
gist of this thing.

Is that there are all of
these opportunities around us.

We are so incredibly lucky to have yeah,
pick up literally anything like you

said, physical object, hobby, thing to
sink your teeth into the possibilities.

are infinite.

At no other point in human history, have
we had so much abundance and opportunity?

What's interesting to me, and this
is like a little bit of what I'm kind

of picking at with the show, is you
don't necessarily feel that that's

shared when you look out in the rest of
your community or society writ large.

It's like, you get it.

You're like, oh yeah, like.

Learning stuff, connecting
with things, doing stuff, like,

not just throwing shit away.

There's a lot there, and for me,
there tends to be, you just see this

chasm between seemingly like how
other people are moving through life,

Denise: Mm-hmm

Brad Frost: their, what their vantage
point is, and this thing that I

feel pretty strongly inside of me,
and I'm curious if you share that.

Denise: Oh my gosh.

Are you kidding?

Like the amount of the sheer lack of
curiosity and, willingness or interest in

learning and expanding mind and expanding
your, your Perspective and expanding

what you understand or know to be true.

The lack of that that I feel like
I see is just, is always like, wow.

And it's also interesting too, because.

I feel like in the industry that we've
been in and in the cohorts and circles

that we've been in, there are more
people who are not like that, right?

There are more people who are curious,
wanna learn and like to think and put

things together and stuff like that,
because we wouldn't have been drawn to.

Tech and

Brad Frost: Yep.

Denise: and, and, and coding and
development and all of those things.

We wouldn't have been drawn to it
because those are the skills that

you need to be a front end developer,
backend developer, designer,

Brad Frost: Yep.

Denise: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Like, you need those skills, I follow
a guy on Instagram who, um, is an adult

who never really learned how to read.

So he was an illiterate adult
and he's teaching himself how to

read and he's teaching himself
how to become more literate.

just following him and seeing his
struggles and seeing him struggle

through pronouncing words and reading
things, and he was like, oh, I wanted

to read Harry Potter, but it's kind
of too advanced, and so I'm gonna

have to kind of ratchet back and read
something that's not as advanced.

And, for me as

somebody who learned how to read was two,
like, I just started reading early and I

just, and I love to read and I love words
and I love like all this stuff that is

such a. Polar opposite of my experience.

And I realized that he's not
an exception, but there's a

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Denise: huge part of the population who is
at that literacy level and all that stuff.

And it's like my heart goes out to them.

'cause I'm just like,
reading is so amazing.

And it's so necessary.

It's such a necessary skill.

to think even how a person's life would
to, would play out or be structured when

they don't know how to read or they don't
have enough reading comprehension to

understand things like agreement or, you

Brad Frost: yes,

Denise: so, or even to fill out a

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: And so it's really interesting to
have that kind of expansion of awareness.

Like, wow, this is something that
happens, and can I potentially

do to help mitigate that or

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: people in those states.

But I don't know if you can help
people when they're incurious.

I don't know if you if

you can,

Brad Frost: I,

Denise: you can

Brad Frost: yeah,

Denise: you can how can you help people

Brad Frost: yeah,

Denise: they're incurious?

how can you help people when they don't
seem to be particularly interested in

learning or expanding your worldview

or

Brad Frost: This is, I think, fascinating.

And first of all, I love that story,
and that person who is sharing

their journey and back to the word
mastery that you said earlier.

They're sharing their journey towards
mastery of the English language, right?

And sharing that journey Along the way,
just as you're saying, it's like, I love

picking up new things, going through
that process and that act of sharing the

hard parts, the going through the falling
on your face, the saying, whoops, I'm

trying to read Harry Potter, but I need
to walk it back 'cause I'm not there yet.

That is like massively
empowering to, one themselves.

But two, to all these other people
as well, and that's, it's something

that I think that curiosity can,

be sparked through the process of sharing
the, the struggle and the creative act,

because what ends up happening, whenever
you just see the finished painting, or

you just feel the final composition, is
a bunch of people go, I can't do that.

I can't do that.

I don't know what that look.

So that's what's I think is so
incredibly freaking cool about

the world that we operate in now.

And the fact that we have all of
these different channels and outlets

YouTube's a freaking miracle, right?

But all of these things, right?

Whether it's Instagram.

Like when you see artists
on Instagram, right?

And Like me and my daughter
we'll watch these things forever.

, and some of the videos
are are literal hours.

Some of them are edited to shit
and made to look like super cool

and really processed and stuff.

But what you see is that process.

and it becomes a lot more
attainable for people.

Denise: Yeah.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

That's like the, the, the creative act.

I, I call it like creative exhaust.

It's like, it's not the finished piece.

It's, it's the exhaust.

It's all of this sort of fumes,
the byproducts of that thing.

That all has a lot of value.

And I think that that's really
fascinating, but I think like kind

of bringing it back to like, how do
you sort of shake a bunch of people

who just seem to be sleepwalking

or just outwardly, like,
hostile to learning new

things or having an open mind.

I think that there's something there.

I don't know what the answers are, but
what I found, and I'm curious to get your

take on this, because I've seen you light
up a room full of hundreds of people.

And.

It's freaking amazing, I, I mean that
like it's been a number of years, but

I remember it like it was yesterday,
and I think what happens, and I'm sure

you get a lot of people come up to
you after you give a talk or whatever,

and there's this attraction, right?

people want to be around you, and people
are like, are, are like leaning in

hard whenever you you are demonstrating
a way of being that they were not

up until that moment of hearing you
speak aware of, or they've been aware

of it, but you're giving them somehow
permission to, to be interested,

to be excited, to be enthusiastic.

I hadn't said it out loud until now,
just because like, I've had this idea

for a podcast for a long time and
you're like the first person that

came to my mind . That's the reason.

That's the reason.

It's like when you're out there and
you're living life a certain way, what

you're doing is Whether you're explicitly
doing it or not, you're pulling people

along and you're bringing people up

Denise: Mm-hmm.

Brad Frost: closer to where
you're at rather than you getting

dragged down into the dredges.

Denise: Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you for saying that.

I, I think too, one of the things that
I, I really focus on, and again, this

is something that I, I can't help.

It's just.

innate to me.

I just, I literally can't stop myself,
but it's like, don't wanna just model

this kind of way of being for people.

But I also want to give people tools.

when people are like, I, I, I knew
that there was something else, but

I didn't know quite what it was.

And you kind of helped
me put my finger on it.

And I'm like, yes.

And I'm thinking to myself, yes.

And I hope I gave you some
tools to be able to actually

start on the process yourself.

Because I

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: you, one of my pet peeves as
a speaker is going places and going to

conferences and listening to speakers,
and they're like this pie in the sky

thing and this wonderful thing and that
wonderful thing and the other thing.

And I'm like, great, how do I do it?

And then they get off the stage
and I'm like, are you, you, what?

You gonna say all this?

And you're not gonna give me
anything tangible or concrete of

how I can possibly access that?

and I have to say that in terms of
like with my own creative endeavors

or, craft, DYI, et cetera, et cetera
creative expression and stuff like that.

I mean, of the reason that we're even
talking to each other right now is

because I started making soap and then
I ended up teaching soap making because

people were like, how do you make soap?

I was like, it's super easy.

Come over to my house and
I'll show you how to do it.

And then I started teaching soap
making and then I started teaching

it to like larger classes of
like 20, 24 people, whatever.

And then doing that led me to be
able to, um, I was also incidentally

doing tech work and doing like HTML
and like front end development stuff.

And so then I started teaching
HTML and front end development

stuff because was doing it and then
I had this teaching experience.

Then I'm teaching

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: at a conference.

I see, I see Molly Hoch on front end
development and all of the stuff that

I taught, because I taught from her, I
taught from some of her books was like,

oh, I wanna be on a stage doing this
in classroom teaching like 24 people.

just went from there.

I feel like some ways for me personally
in this incarnation of who I am and

how I am on the planet at this point
in time, it is unconscionable for me

to know something that I think can
help somebody and not teach them.

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Yeah.

it's it's an, it's a real instinct.

Denise: And

Brad Frost: Yep.

Denise: the funny thing is is that
of course now I have a folder for

all of my um, cast iron stuff.

one of the things that I did was as
soon as I I posted on Facebook, um,

in one of my groups, I'm in these buy
nothing, I'm gonna buy nothing group.

And I

Brad Frost: yeah,

Denise: is anybody trying
to get rid of cast iron?

And a bunch of people were like, probably
five people were like, you know what?

I don't wanna get rid of any, but I,
I wanna learn how to take care of it.

And I was like, I should do a workshop.

Like the, the very first thing.

And so I sat down and I sketched out,
did bullet points and everything.

And I sketched out a cast iron workshop
and like the timing and how long it

would take and what would they need.

And

Brad Frost: beautiful,

Denise: a little kit they do.

We'll actually go through the
process of making the seasoning sell.

They'll have their own little
tin that they go home with,

you know, rubber gloves.

and And it was like, I swear to
God, it was like the easiest thing.

It was like falling off of a log.

Brad Frost: Yeah, yeah.

Denise: it was

crazy how easy it was like my brain
just went, oh, okay, and this and

this and this, and the timing.

And

Brad Frost: yep.

Denise: be like an hour and a half, and
while that's happening, it was nuts.

I was just like, wow.

All right, brain, go on with the bad self.

Brad Frost: I mean, it's
those conditions, right?

Because what you're describing is
one, like a long history, whether

it's SOAP HTML or whatever,
you have these superpowers.

You have these gifts.

You're aware of those gifts.

You're also self-aware of this innate
pull to, to teach and to share.

And then You also have this emerging
thing, and you're going through the

process yourself, and there's this
real drive, or, or instant knee

jerk reaction to go, I'm into this.

Other people are signaling that
they could also be into this

and I am just gonna go for it.

So there's this kind of stew happening.

You're learning a new thing.

You're figuring it out.

You're trying, you're failing.

You kind of cross a, a certain threshold.

And then as soon as like you
have something, you're like,

well, that's, that's valuable.

And other people can, can benefit from it.

So, so let's make it happen.

Denise: Honestly, if people had just
said here, I have a pan for you.

I'd been like, great.

But the fact that five people I, I'd love
to learn how to take care of my castine.

I don't really know.

And I was like, I used to be one of those
people, I mean, I remember I actually had

taken a soap making class, know, years
before I started teaching it myself.

And I took a soap making
class and I failed miserably.

My soap did not come out from that class.

It actually ended up separating.

I realize now.

actually, I have to say that that failure
was really helpful because it made it so

that when I finally went back to trying to
make soap again and was successful, I was

like, oh, okay, this was the problem, you

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Denise: didn't

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: We didn't mix the
mixture long enough for it

to actually set up properly.

When I started doing it, I was like,
okay, this is what I'm gonna do to make

sure that that doesn't happen again.

And then when I did my soap making
classes, I was like, this is what you do.

And I was Like I will literally
not let you walk out of this

class unless you're soap traces
and comes, gets the right thing.

Like, if we need to be here for another
hour, we will be, but you're not walking

outta here without experiencing what
that looks like and knowing what it

feels like so that when you do it at
home, you know exactly what you're doing.

Because that's how I get down.

Brad Frost: That's an interesting
thing too, to be able to take, your

personal experience with failure or
you could extrapolate that out to

just hardship in general and to use
that experience to make sure that

other people don't go through the same

Denise: But

Brad Frost: and that you feel an
opportunity, but also a responsibility

to make sure that other people
don't suffer the same thing.

Denise: and it's really true I'm
so glad you, you picked up on that.

That has actually been a
through line in my whole career.

as a instructor or teacher
or trainer or whatever?

When I was teaching HTML, I started
getting frustrated when my students

were like, it doesn't work.

Oh, I'm, I failed.

It's awful.

And I'd be like, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, Time out.

Did You do so

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: They'd

Brad Frost: I.

Denise: uh, well, I was like,
did you check so and so?

They're like, yeah.

like, did you check so and so?

Yeah.

that process of having a standard
way of troubleshooting ended up being

the basis of my first book,
The CSS Detective Guide.

And when I met the woman who was my,
my acquisitions editor, and she was

like, well, I have this idea for a book
about like, you know, basically like.

Solving the mysteries of CSS
'cause so many people like will do

stuff in CSS and it doesn't work.

And why?

And so kinda like, need like
a troubleshooting guide.

I was like, I could write that too.

Was like, really?

And I was like, I used to teach, I had
like a troubleshooting, like worksheet.

I had for my students.

Like, okay, if this, you've got
a problem, check here, check in

the head, check this check to make
sure that your quote is finished.

Check to make sure your
bracket's finished.

And she was like, oh yeah, let's talk.

And that's, that

Brad Frost: You already wrote it.

Denise: I was like, no, I actually, it's
funny, like that check that that worksheet

is like, like two pages in chapter one,

Brad Frost: Oh, sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Denise: is like,

Brad Frost: But in essence, you
have demonstrated, that thing, I've

already got the the nugget of it.

Denise: I've already got like
the, like the, the kernel of it.

and then I would have to say that thing
that got me into doing creativity was

when I was writing the CSS detective
guide and I was struggling so much.

trying to keep motivated
and all this stuff.

I actually stopped working on
one of my chapters because my

inner critic was so strong that
I couldn't even write anything.

and I literally stopped what I was
doing and went and looked up articles

on like how to silence the inner critic.

And came across an article that said
something, she had this quote from SARC or

something like, banish your inner critic,
uh, to go hunt rare lemurs in Madagascar.

And I was like, banish
your inner critic, word.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: up like not long about that.

After that I came up and I was like,
it would be great to teach like a

workshop on how to like banish your inner
critic And silence your inner critic.

And that was in 2010.

Can you believe that,

And like that,

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

Denise: kind of through line.

And so like when I did, I was like,
Oh, there's this whole, there are

all of these things that I did when
I finally started doing research.

It turned out that a lot of the things
that I was doing intuitively were actual

practices

Brad Frost: Yes.

Denise: creativity and sunrise
in your inner critic and all

Brad Frost: Yes.

Denise: it again, like you said, it
was the failure, it was the struggle,

it was the difficult thing that got
me to the thing that ended up being

the thing that I was successful with.

Brad Frost: To be able to flip something
on its head and make lemonade out of it.

There's really something to the fact that
you're doing this through the lens of

not just how do I solve this problem for
myself, but a real theme here is as soon

as you're like, ah, there's something,
or like, oh, I got through this, the

immediate instinct, is to go, Oh, let me
do a workshop on this or ultimately like,

let me like write a book on the topic.

And I think that there's something really
important there because there's a few

different kinds of creative people on
the planet, you probably know this a

lot better than me, but there's, there
are the hoarders and the people that

are, so up their own ass than they're,
you know, egocentric and whatever, and

protective, and it's like that whole
bullshit hero narrative and all of that

stuff, and then there are the people who,
by way of their work, understand that

bringing more people into these ideas and
disseminating them out into the world and

teaching people the tools of the trade,
just like you said, giving people those

tools, giving people the peek behind the
curtain, whatever it is, is so much more

satisfying Then doing the work yourself.

You make that one bar of soap.

Okay, like, that's great.

I'll use this until it's gone
and then I'll make another one.

Right?

it's like, that's, that's great.

I, I'll make this website.

And oh, I like learned
some things along the way.

And like, I'll make the
next website better.

There's a finite number of websites
that that I can make on this planet.

But that ability to just go a little,
a little further out and say, I'm just

gonna put this here, put this idea
out here, put this thing I learned

out here, put this like whatever, you
just see this cascade of, of, of just.

It's, it's staggering.

And like, when we're talking about
like the web, like that's why I love

this thing so much all these years
later is that you're like I. idea, like

literally travels around the world.

And then you're like, Oh, it becomes
addicting, but in the best, in most

positive way possible, because it's
creativity plus community, plus

this this kind of like shared
vulnerability slash we're working

through it and we're building on each
other's idea we're collaborating,

E even if it's not explicitly called
collaboration in that same way, um, but

just holy smokes, like I write an article,
someone else rebounds that article.

It's like, here's my thoughts on
it and I freaking love it whenever

they're like disagreeing and stuff too.

But it's like, here's what I do instead
and I'm like, yeah, like that's.

That's it right there.

It's like we we're just all kind

Denise: Building on

top of each other.

Exactly.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: love that.

Like I remember once somebody said back
in the soap making days and they were

like, aren't you worried that you're
like creating competition for yourself?

And I was just like, I was like,
okay, first of all, no, because Even

if somebody exact same recipe of
soap as I did, wouldn't be the same.

It wouldn't have the same feel to it.

It wouldn't, was like, number one.

Number two, soap is
something that you consume.

You go through it.

That I was like, I buy soap
from other soap makers.

I, I don't wanna just use myself.

It's like eating your
own cooking all the time.

You're like, I don't wanna just
eat my own food all the time.

I like eating other people's food
'cause it tastes different than mine.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: and not only that,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: like, you know, if
other people wanna, I mean, they

could teach it and everything.

I was like, but I'm really
good at teaching this.

Here's an interesting thing that's, that's
kind of funny too, So when I decided

to stop teaching soap making outta my
house and wanted to it to more people.

I was living in Seattle at the time and I
went to the UDub extension, which is like

the adult education extension that they

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: night classes and stuff like that.

And I went there and I.

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

Denise: a application to teach my soap
making class through that and everything.

you know, during the interview,
they basically were just

like, here are all the rules.

Will you abide by the rules?

And I was like, sure.

And they're like, nice
to have you on board.

And I was like, okay, great.

Well, I would like to have
two sessions of the class.

And they were like, oh, yeah.

You know, when you're starting out.

What we recommend is that you just have
one, you just have one session and you

don't have two sessions because, if
it doesn't take on and not that many

people sign up, it's better to just have
like one course, that's like partially

full or almost full than like two
courses that aren't very full at all.

And I

remember thinking to myself.

you have no idea how popular
this class is gonna be.

But I was like, I was
like, okay, that's cool.

You know, whatever, we'll just do one.

And they're like, yeah, you know,
we'll just like, we'll see, and

I can see if it builds up in
popularity and all this stuff.

I was thinking, mm-hmm.

They put it into, they had, they
used to do like this kind of like

newspaper flyer thing that came out
for the new quarter and everything.

It

Brad Frost: Yep.

Denise: Three weeks after it came out.

was before the quarter started,
three weeks after it came out,

I get a call from the woman who
was the director of the A SUW.

She was like, Hey, Denise, Tiffany.

And I was like, Tiffany
girl, what's going on?

And she was like, well, your class is
full has 16 people on the waiting list.

Did you wanna open up another session?

And I was like, yep.

And basically from that point
on, I always had two sessions of

the class and they always filled.

And I always had people on the
waiting list, always, every time.

it was like, because I

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

Denise: was like, it was just, it was
so timely and it was so like perfect.

So it's interesting too when you say,
oh, you know, for the people who are

just like this all to myself and I
don't wanna, and somebody's gonna

steal it and all that stuff, it's
just like, much more could you do and

how much more could you grow things?

If you share it, right?

Like it's,

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: of the thing that that
helps just the thing itself

grow, but it helps you grow.

I started teaching and speaking and
stuff because that the very first

class that I taught to the 24 people.

The way I describe it to people is
like, you know how when you jump on

a trampoline and you jump up and that
there's that beautiful moment where

you go up in the air and you hit the
highest point and then you come down and

the higher you jump, the more that you
can really feel that I was like, I felt

like when the class started was when I
jumped off of the trampoline and when

the LA class ended was when I landed.

I. it was like that feeling of like
elation and bouyance and, joy and

lightness and brightness and everything.

When I landed, it was just
like, I have to do that.

again.

That was amazing.

And I feel like that still.

Like when I speak and when I go and
I do a workshop, I still have that

feeling of buoyancy and, and rightness
and and do you know what I mean?

Brad Frost: Boy do I,

Denise: So maybe that's why
it's like my first inclination

is like, I'll make a workshop

Brad Frost: I mean, that's beautiful.

Like, I, I love that visual of the
trampoline, and I think once you

experience that, that real feeling
of flow and fulfillment and like,

this is exactly as it needs to be.

That's such a potent and powerful
experience, 'cause once you

have that, you know it's there,
and you go looking for it,

Denise: what's

Brad Frost: and yeah,

Denise: right?

Brad Frost: and, That's what I want with
this show, 'cause a a lot of people I

think will look at people like you or
look at people like me, it ends up

being communicated in different ways.

There's some sort of
like, what are you doing?

Like, I don't, I don't really get
this, but like, I see you and you

seem to be having a good time.

Something like that.

Right.

And, and I think that those
trampoline Zenith moments are

available to everyone and.

Enough people, I think, haven't read
your book and they talk themselves

out of things and they don't put
themselves in situations, right?

Because that requires a certain amount
of vulnerability that requires a leaning

in and what I tend to see with a lot
of folks, even creative professionals,

professional designers, they're like,
Oh, I, I couldn't possibly, right?

It's it's this like total you are shutting
the door just as soon as it's presented

to it's like, just think about it even
for a second, just consider it for a

half a second and like bust through that
knee jerk reaction of like, I don't know.

That's that's unfamiliar.

That's scary.

That's whatever.

Right?

And because when you follow it and
one when you sort of allow yourself

to open the door to that curiosity and
That interest in that pursuit, that's

that high point of the trampoline.

Like you get there eventually, but you
have to put yourself in situations that

can give you the ability to have that.

I kind of try to pick at it in just
conversations that I have, it does just

kind of seem like a lot of people just.

expect it to just fall into their lap or
for it to just show up or reveal itself.

And it's like, nah, dude, you
gotta, you gotta go find it.

You gotta, you gotta go.

You gotta do it.

Denise: I mean, I feel like it's
kind of multiple parts, right?

Sometimes things do fall in
your lap, but I also think

Brad Frost: Sure.

Denise: the more you pay attention
yourself, your process, your interests.

What feels right, then the easier
for you to recognize something that

comes across your path you can be
like, Oh, this is one of those things.

This has a spark of opportunity.

in it.

I was at South by Southwest when I
met my acquisitions editor and I met

her 'cause she was had, um, friend of
mine, she was his editor and so I ran

into them and he introduced me to her.

two days previous to running into her.

I was talking to a friend and I was
actually pathetic and pitiful and

lamenting and whining and I was like,
I just wanna speak at web conferences.

I don't know why I can't
speak at web conferences.

I'll be so good of a speaker.

Why can't I just do that?

most of the people I know who speak
at web conferences have a book.

dude, I was like, the only book
that I could write is a book on

HTML, and Lord knows the world
doesn't need another one of those.

And she was like, listen, I'm just
telling you what I've observed.

And I was just like, well, point taken.

Thank you.

Appreciate your input.

Two days later, I'm on the stairs.

I run into Wendy Sharp.

she was like, oh, we're
always looking for authors.

And I was like, oh yeah, I could
like write a book on stuff.

He was like, what?

And I was

like, well, I have this idea about like
talking about this, like weight loss.

We do tech books.

I was like, right.

I used to teach web design and web
development, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And she was like, have an idea about
this book about troubleshooting CSS.

And I was like, I could write that book.

now.

Had I not had the conversation with my
friend two days ago, I might not have

even been primed mentally to try to say

Brad Frost: Yep.

Denise: about writing a book.

Right?

Brad Frost: Yep.

Yep.

Denise: you know what I mean?

So did it fall into my lap?

Kind of Did I have a process of making it
clear to me that that was an opportunity?

when I recognized that I saw it, when
she said that I was like, Oh me, me.

I'll write a book.

Me.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: please.

Brad Frost: that priming is fantastic.

Like, it's we feel it
in our consciousness.

Or, or a lot of times those things
that do feel like serendipity, right?

it's because we passed that billboard,
it's because we heard that thing, or

it's because we read that article,
or it's because we did this thing.

And that stuff matters, and I've
been thinking about it a lot.

Recently, just because of it goes both
ways that psychological priming right

when all you hear and all that's around
you and all the news says and all that

the just sort of general zeitgeist.

Is negativity, is threat,
is fear, is whatever.

When things happen, go,
Ah, ah, there it is!

We notice that, right?

And so, one of the things that I am,
I'm contemplating, and I know that

we're all struggling right now, and
maybe we can maybe use that as an

opportunity to get into that, because
there's this like, total incongruency.

With what we're talking about, and
what this moment in time is seemingly

at this, at this kind of macro level.

And that priming, and that like, the,
the water is poisoned, just the air

is poisoned, the water is poison.

everything that we are just bathing in,
is so unhealthy, and so negative, and

that primes our brains, collectively.

To be looking for threats, to
be more fearful, to be more

disconnected, to be less trusting.

And I find myself, right?

'cause I'm a human being and I,
and I'm susceptible to went to my

niece's basketball game last night.

And I'm like scanning the bleachers just
kind of going, I caught myself doing it.

and I'm just like, there it is,

The, the things that we are primed for,
what our brains are primed for, impacts

how we operate in the world, how we're
thinking, who we're talking to, what

we pick up, what we don't pick up, and
it's just so incredibly toxic, the whole

everything right now, it seems, And
you mentioned this before we started

recording, not jumping into the toxic
river seems to be a pretty sensible,

coping mechanism in this moment in time.

Right.

Denise: right.

I mean, one of the things I, I think
we have to do to maintain our sanity

and to create a barrier between
ourselves and this toxicity is.

how can we create safe
spaces for ourselves?

right?

How can we create sanctuary?

how can we create Safe insulation.

one of the things that I feel that we can
do that with is through community and is

through connecting with other like-minded

Brad Frost: Yes.

Denise: that's how

Brad Frost: yes.

Denise: create kind of mental
and actually even potentially

defacto physical um, and safety

Brad Frost: I love that.

I'm hearing like there's protection
involved and there's creating a

place where, where you have reprieve

Denise: Yes,

Brad Frost: from

Denise: like,

Brad Frost: the,

the mess.

Denise: you did this when
you did your Frostapalooza.

Like, you created this lovely
gathering of like-minded, supportive

people to come together and be in
a celebratory space for a weekend.

And, like, how wonderful and special.

that.

Now is a particularly important
time for us to be seeking out

and, or creating those spaces.

ourselves, for having our own
kind of place of safety and

reprieve and sanctuary, and then.

In a grander sense for,

Brad Frost: Yes.

Yes.

Denise: people.

Brad Frost: Yeah.

A hundred percent agree.

I think a lot of the messaging
I've seen around sort of self

care and stuff like that is it's
really weak sauce in my opinion.

And like,

I am, I am like, so much of it is maybe
once in a while, take a quick step out of

the Toxic River, and like, dry yourself
off before you jump back in, or it's

this like, You build a moat and you,
or or you duck your head in the sand.

And I, I think that's
a bit of a cop out too.

And where I'm starting to
realize is the way to fight.

Is through putting love and
positivity out into the world.

And that's not some
hippie dippy shit there.

Like that's like actually like a really
profound, it's really hard to do.

It's, but it's really important work.

So it's like, yes, there's sanctuary,
but there's this, there's this

outwardness to it that isn't just like,
Oh, we're circling the wagons and we

have like our little tribe that's here.

It's like, no, no, no.

We need to like demonstrate.

to others, that there are different ways
of being that reject this, this just

absolute toxic reality that, that I see
everyone in my life consumed by right now.

And, and again, It's, there's no
fault there, but like what I'm

finding is like a personal mission
as someone who I feel like has like

this perspective and this ability

to exude positivity and to put that stuff
out there, like I feel a real drive and

responsibility, just like you're talking
about with like, with teaching that

instinct, I'm like, my instinct is going.

I'm not gonna get out there
and start railing on things.

That's not going to help the dialogue.

That's not gonna help anything.

I'm going to show another way
of, of existing, of being, of

showing up, of, of fighting.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna
fight with some dollars.

I'm gonna like, Uh, this is, this is
something I'm gonna try this out on you.

And I really wanna get your
take on it because People get

outraged because there's real
harm being done to real people.

So putting your head in the sand
and just being like, I'm not, just

not going to pay attention to it.

It's not acceptable.

That's not an option.

But also, what I've learned is
that these, these ghouls, who are

very deeply psychologically unwell,
attention is their lifeblood.

That is their fuel, right?

So recognizing those two things, real
harm is being done to real people.

And these people want nothing
more than me to just be thinking

about them all day, every day.

And I refuse to give them that fuel.

But I also need to keep and pay
attention to the real harm of the

real thoughts, words, actions . So,
what I'm trying to do and it's very,

very difficult is to create it, create
a separation where I'm able to stay

laser focused on like the real things.

And that's going to help me understand.

Who do I need to donate money to?

Who do I need to show up for support
and, how should I cast my vote?

How should I exist in my community?

Like, et et cetera, et
cetera, that stuff matters.

But at the same time, I'm
just going to be like.

Yeah, somewhere out there, bad people
are doing bad things, and they could

just kind of stay in amorphous blob
that's like off in the distance

or behind a curtain somewhere.

Like, I'm gonna be over here trying
to care about people and those people

that are having harm done to get them.

But I'm also going to just recognize
this, this negative presence, encounter

it by showing up with positivity.

So I don't know

Denise: what you're doing, and like
I said, you've already started doing

it, before things went very sideways.

but you're also having these
conversations, by talking to people

like me about what it is that makes
them excited to get up in the morning,

through that you are a building community
and you are a building connection and

with your, kind of analogy of poison
river and poison air and everything.

Yes, and there's a source of poison
in the river and if we can get to the

source and neutralize those poisons.

Then we have a chance.

I wanted to say that the second
thing that uh, makes me excited to

wake up is having turned my whole
yard into an edible food forest,

Brad Frost: I am so glad that you
went there 'cause as soon as you're

like, take the poison outta the air,
convert it, like, I'm like, Oh, now

we get to talk about your garden.

Fantastic.

Denise: is a very, very, tangible way
that I am contributing to transforming

or removing toxins from the air
and removing toxins from the earth

and putting back good and necessary

things there.

and also a really good example of
sanctuary and also a. Potentially

having it be a gathering place
for people to experience some

moments of peace, to experience

some moments of wonder, to
experience some moments of learning.

one of the things I love about
gardening is having this opportunity

to learn a thing all the time.

So, you know, every single plant in my
yard, I myself in tank, which means.

went out and I found it.

I, you know, I bought, I sourced it.

I bought it.

I planted it.

I, you know, some things I had in pots for
a long time before they actually went into

the ground into their kind of final place.

And then some things got moved
because it turns out that in the

process of and paying attention and
looking at it, I realized that it

actually wasn't in the right place,
that I didn't put it in a place where

that would allow it to thrive.

And that's also something that I
think is, you know, very valuable

is having time to observe something.

So that you can figure out how to make
the most of it and get the best out of it.

if that's a plant, if that's a person,
if that's a team, so I mean, I think

that that's also a really important,
a really important part of kind of all

of this contributing to encountering
kind of grander level of levels of

toxicity that awareness, being grounded
for yourself then being able to, from

a grounded place, being able to make
observations and then make changes and

take action based on your observations,
I think is a really powerful combination.

Brad Frost: Amazing.

And the end result is this,

I mean, just gorgeous looking
oasis, so it's like, yeah, like,

the before and after is stunning,
is is absolutely stunning, and Shit.

I mean, it looks like it's like
out of a textbook where it's just

like, here's deforestation and then
here's reforestation or whatever.

So it's like, it, it's like very, very
like visceral before and after picture

of like this really lush environment.

And it's just, it's gorgeous.

It's amazing.

Denise: you know, one of my extreme
points of pride with this place is

the fact that most of the materials
are, have all been upcycled.

So I made raised beds out of Oakwood
flooring that came from my neighbor's

house across the street I have a
deck with an outdoor shower and

Brad Frost: Sure.

Denise: in it.

And I really, really wanted that
deck to be made out EPE wood, but

EPE is extraordinarily expensive.

And then I found a guy who had taken
apart his Epay deck and was selling

the pieces at a fraction of the cost.

And so I got all this stuff and had folks,
like, sand it down, and, like, make it

renew and reuse it.

And so now I have this gorgeous outdoor
shower and deck and actually had enough

to wrap my, my cement, uh, and tile porch.

And now my porch is, um, is wood.

And I mean, just all of these things,
you know, some wood for free, Off of

Offer Up from this guy who took apart his
mom's cedarwood, cabana in her backyard.

and was like, hey, if you can
pick it up, come and take it.

And I was like, I will be there
tomorrow with pickup truck.

all of this.

Wouldn't have been possible without, first
of all, creative constraints, second of

all, without being like, what have I got?

how can I take this thing that
somebody literally would've

put in landfill and how can I

take

Brad Frost: Yeah,

Denise: and and make something with it?

And that's one of the things that I
am so proud of is that these things

were all going to be thrown away.

You

Brad Frost: yeah,

Denise: And then

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: up making this,
this oasis with it.

what's being at as.

Not valuable as garbage,
as broken, as unusable.

And how can reframe that and say,
no, no, we can, we can use this part.

Okay.

Maybe that part I can't use.

Maybe I have to sand it down.

Maybe I have to cut that part off
'cause that part's too far gone, but

we

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: have a lot we can work with.

We still have materials that are valuable.

We still have something
that that can be put to use.

And if we just look at it properly,
if we put, add a little bit of

creativity and some ingenuity, We
can figure, how to, we can figure out

how to nurture and make it gorgeous.

Brad Frost: yeah, not, not just make
it good enough, like literally take it

way better than it would be otherwise.

Right.

And those, Ingredients matter a great deal

and I I think that's just so so
beautifully said and it really doesn't

require that much extra work if at all.

In fact, it's a hell of a lot
easier half the time, right?

It's certainly cheaper, as you're saying.

The immediate thing that comes to
mind is like whenever you, you look

at just the, the stark juxtaposition
of how much it takes to to educate

someone versus to jail them,

there's where like the the money is

is, is

far better spent.

the fact that this is just available,
and all it really does is to kind of

take a bit of a shift in perspective.

That to me is so incredibly powerful
that is like with the exact same

materials, with the exact same resources,
infrastructure, people, whatever.

And that's where that idea of of
vision of being able to imagine, to

be creative, So I live in Pittsburgh.

There's all these bridges.

Anytime there's any sort of thing
about like bike lanes or, or, getting

rid of any stretch of road in order
to make it a little bit friendlier

for non-car, it's this big uproar.

It's this big thing.

My neighbor was just showing me
Had a rendering of like, what if we

were to just take one of the bridges
and like turn that into a park?

And so like, you know, there
was a, a, a really beautiful

artistic rendering of this thing.

It would just be a pedestrian bridge.

It's the bridge right by
the, the baseball stadium.

So all these people, whenever a baseball
game's happening, all these people are

walking across that bridge anyways.

And she's like, just do
that all the time, right?

And plant some trees and
it'll be freaking great.

it's a very inexpensive.

investment, but would radically
transform the, a space that desperately

needs some, some more green space.

and it's just like, that's, that's
the kind of thing it's like kind

of coming back to, it's just like
there's this negativity, lack of

imagination, lack of, of just can-do
attitude versus the qualities that

you embody so perfectly, I think,

I, I feel like that before and
after is just like a real exercise

in here's what vision Gets to you.

Here's here's what this this kind of
attitude can yield and I think it's such

like just a beautiful embodiment of the
spirit of, of the show and what we're

like, kind of trying to do here is to just
be like, what is that like, after picture

Can we teach people to be more curious?

When we look at these moments and
what's in front of us, a lot of times.

It doesn't necessarily show
itself as, as totally obvious,

but there's this kind of instinct.

And again, this is kind of something
that I'm picking at there's this

instinct that it's like, it's, it seems
like challenging the moment at hand or

trying to change the moment at hand.

By way of just, like, trying to, make
people happy or trying to, like, sort

of promote positivity, or creativity,
or, like, it feels almost insulting,

especially as, like, real people are,
like, being harmed in this moment, right?

And so it seems shallow or naive to,
to be like this actually doesn't feel

like a trite, peace, love, dove, kind
of, like, weird sentiment, but it

actually feels like more potent and,
and has more, like, gravity than I

think that I. we, we give it credit for.

And I don't know, I, I'm kind of,
like, feeling around here, but it's

like my overwhelming instinct as
I'm like, like, this has to be met

Denise: I

Brad Frost: with an equal
and opposite reaction,

Denise: It

Brad Frost: I guess.

Denise: And I, I think, What's happening
in this moment is that people are

feeling incredibly disempowered.

having conversations like this, Exposing
your audience to other people who

are actually doing something and have
kind of tapped into kind of way to

exist in the world in a more empowered
way will help other people see how

they can potentially do the right.

It's

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: you glossing over, toxic river.

It's not what we're doing is we're,
like you said, we're providing a

counterpoint, then I think that

Brad Frost: Mm-hmm.

Denise: start to feel empowered in one
area of their life and feel like they,

they can start to have more agency in
one area of their life, then that can

potentially spill over into other areas.

at me, even for myself, I can look outside
to be like, you did that on like a shoes

string budget with like a skeleton crew.

You did all of that.

If you can do that, what else can you do?

I remember I'm not even
gonna apologize for it.

I know I keep talking about my, first book
and stuff like that, kind of this lovely

moment, you know, now that I have this.

Vantage point of gosh, that was 15
years ago, and so much has happened

since 15 and 16 years ago, but it's
like now I have a really clear, way of

looking back at this and kind of seeing
all the things that were happening

that I just couldn't see at the time.

And, I remember when I was.

trying to write my book that it was just
like, you know, who am I to write a book?

Like, who am I to do this?

And how can I possibly do this?

And I don't even know if I can.

And then at the end of it,
when I did it, I was just like,

Oh my God, I wrote a book.

Not only did I write a book, but I like
designed like websites as examples,

which I wasn't even sure if I was
a very good web designer, but I was

actually able to design these things
and break them and build them and

write about it in story format.

I was just like, well, Jesus, if
I can do this, what else can I do?

the empowerment that I got from being able
to do this thing that I wasn't sure I was

able to do made it so that it transferred.

And I was like, if I can do this,
what other thing that I didn't

think I could do or wasn't sure
I could do, can I actually do?

Brad Frost: Yeah.

Denise: feel like

Brad Frost: Uh, that's beautiful.

Denise: been kind of a series of in
some cases, exploring and finding out

like, oh, I didn't know I could do that.

but I could do that.

that's kind of again,
like the through line.

that's, I think, the importance
of getting in touch with, getting

empowered, finding something.

Maybe it's not directly doing
something to, you know, dismantle

the toxic river, maybe it's something

else.

But then that will guide you to a
place of inner strength, that you

didn't know that you had, and that you
could start to address those things.

Brad Frost: the, the irony is that these
things might seem like it's a, it's

a distraction or it's trite, or it's
like how in the world is like, screen

printing gonna change the world or
whatever, but it's like, it's the same

as planning, vegetation you put in your,

that soaks up the toxicity,
everything is connected.

Right.

And, and so there is this, you know, the
ecosystem that is, it's like, Oh, the

reason why the plants are, are failing
down here is because like, you know, 30

miles upstream There, you know, there's
this like kind of gross industrial

plan or whatever, like, so it's all.

It's all connected, even
if it feels very indirect,

and it doesn't necessarily feel like
you're, you're fighting things head on.

That's like a bit of my like
frustration with like, a lot of the

response to the toxic river is that
it's like, ah, yes, we need to fight

fire, with, with fire, and we need
to fight everything, like, head on.

And don't get me wrong, like, they're
absolutely Like, people need to be doing

that, certain people are wired for that,
and they're like really good at it.

I learned through the, like,
the last round of this, like,

I'm actually not wired that way,
like, I'm, I'm not a fighter.

Like but I think that there's there's
a lot of danger in the, if you're not

attacking this, if you're not outraged by
this, if you're not addressing it head on.

Then, uh, you're part of the problem.

And I think that there's like a lot
of ways that we can, we can show up

and, and, and counter the negativity
that, that isn't maybe as, as obvious

as like, I'm gonna go toe to toe
with this, with this issue head on.

And that stuff that feels like it's
again, like a little like, Oh, I'm

just tinkering off to the side.

I love how you said it.

It's like, what you're doing is
you're cultivating this sense of

self-empowerment, of this ability,
this, this, attitude that allows you

to start showing up 'cause literally
once you do it once, obviously, and

you're the one that wrote the book on
it, but it's like, it's always there.

But like, it gets easier.

It gets easier over time with
each rep right with each round.

By the time you're building a deck for
your hot tub, you're not super worried.

Denise: right.

Brad Frost: what I mean?

Like, it's, it's like, it
gets, it gets easier over time.

And like, I think like anyone listening
to this, you already have, have these

wins and you can do a little exercise that
basically is like, just crawl back through

the last couple years of your life,

Denise: Yep.

Brad Frost: done some really.

important things that
you should be proud of.

You've built something, you've created
something, you've showed up in a certain

way, done some sort of charitable deed,
like guarantee you that there's that.

And then, so the question then
becomes the, just like you, I

like, I love that through line.

of your like, co. once you
get it, once you get like,

Oh, that's the feedback loop.

Like I could do this.

I could then extend that to the next
thing and extend that to the next thing.

Like, that's how you grow.

That's how you show up.

That's how you live authentically.

And in a way that, that kind of snowballs
upon itself in a positive direction.

Denise: Absolutely,

percent.

Brad Frost: perhaps unsurprisingly,
uh, as a musician, I'm always super

interested in learning about hearing
new music and especially music that

other people are excited about.

So what music are you excited
about or that you, that you want

more people to, to know about?

Denise: so, band crush has actually
been going on for the last five years,

you know how there's sometimes there's
music that you listen to and it's like,

It's like you just feel like it's got
in a worn blanket it's so soothing and

calming and my latest group that has
been doing that for me is Moon Child.

first favorite of

theirs is called Little Ghost,
the second one, Voyager.

third one is Plea Please.

Re, and then the fourth one
after that is their first album.

so basically, I like all Start with
Little Ghost and then work Your Way, kind

of just backwards through their albums.

like soulful and stuff, but, when
you see them, you're just like, these

people are making this music and it's
just like, yeah, they are, They're

Brad Frost: Their album art looks amazing.

Like, it's, it's like,
it's got a whole aesthetic.

Denise: awesome.

Brad Frost: Beautiful.

Denise: three folks and, um,
they're all multi instrumentalists

It's just warm and great.

And I love the boy and the harmonies,
everything It's just so, so good.

go and find some moon child and
listen to it and it'll change

your life and you're welcome.

Brad Frost: beautiful.

that is such a perfect way to end,
so go listen to some Moon Child.

get inspired, uh, and, and Denise,
one, one last thing is like, where

could people find you or what do you
wanna draw people's attention to of

like sort of what, what you're up to
besides, or or maybe including your,

your forthcoming cast iron, uh, class.

Denise: So, uh, people can
still find me@denisejacobs.com.

I think the place that I would probably
be posting the most publicly is like

LinkedIn and maybe potentially some
on Facebook, but not so much anymore,

and occasionally on Instagram.

most definitely what you should
do is if you're interested in My

book, banish Your Inner Critic,
of course, you should get it.

but also, I have several courses on
LinkedIn Learning, that are fantastic.

And so, if you have a premium
LinkedIn account, then you should

be also getting LinkedIn Learning.

If not, you can always do
courses a la carte, But I have

a baner in a Critic Course.

a Creative Collaboration course,
Developing Creativity as a leader.

the Business case for Creativity,
Unique Ways to Generate Creative Ideas

and Productive Creativity, well as
Hacking the Creative Brain as part

of the creativity every day series.

So all of those courses are
nice digestible ways of, getting

to know me and my content.

and then, if you need a great
keynote speaker for your conference

to talk about creativity and or
the inner critic, I'm your woman

Brad Frost: And or cast iron

Denise: And okay,

Brad Frost: skillets and gardens.

Denise: I could do like a little,
a little, uh, breakout session on

Brad Frost: Uh, that's so great.

Well, thank you so much
for coming on here.

You were the first person that I'm
like, I need to talk to Denise,

like I, and I'm so glad that I did

well, thank you.

Thanks so much for being here.

Thanks for listening.

And, uh, until next time, take care.

Thanks.

Denise: Brad.